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Made in us
Steadfast Grey Hunter




Greater Portland Petting Zoo

 skyth wrote:
 Stonebeard wrote:
 skyth wrote:
It's not for expressing their beliefs...It's for being a bigot. There is a difference.


Which, according to you, expressing said beliefs makes them a bigot. I seem to be missing the distinction.


The difference is you claim it's because of their beliefs. In reality it's because their beliefs are bigoted. Expressing the same beliefs without the religion attached to them would get the same results.

Of course, that fact doesn't play into the martry complex.


Still wouldn't be bigotted. Disagreeing with the moral validity of an action is in no way bigotted.

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 agnosto wrote:
Christians being targeted for hate crimes doesn't make them special, it makes them normal.
Dude don't lecture Christians about being hate crime targets ...



In all seriousness, what I am really pointing out is that the problem in this country (and in fact all over the world) is consistently that the majority bullies the minority.

A bunch of British guys realized as much two hundred years and some change ago and decided that needed to stop. Yes -- they were too ambitious. Yes -- they were hypocrites. But the hugeness of their goal and the fact that it was not even totally commensurate with their own way of life -- even the fact that they probably could not even imagine what a world where their goal was achieved would be like -- none of this stopped them. So they made a start: the Bill of Rights.

And although we, the successors of those British guys, have made a lot of mistakes, including a constant parade of hypocrisies, we have never given up either. Legalizing gay marriage is one of the victories in that long struggle. Protecting the religious freedom of those who cannot in good conscience participate in the celebration of gay relationships is the issue facing us now.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/03 19:02:44


   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

 Frazzled wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
There's no excuse for death threats, but I think blaming bad PR on "thought police" is a bit silly. They brought the bad PR on themselves by saying things meant to offend people.


They shouldn't have worn those short skirts. They brought it on themselves!


Since you bring it up, why are death threats against female gamers always dismissed or even hinted to be fraud perpetrated by the victims, but when this pizza place gets death threats, it's okay or even encouraged to take them seriously?

   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
There's no excuse for death threats, but I think blaming bad PR on "thought police" is a bit silly. They brought the bad PR on themselves by saying things meant to offend people.


They shouldn't have worn those short skirts. They brought it on themselves!


Since you bring it up, why are death threats against female gamers always dismissed or even hinted to be fraud perpetrated by the victims, but when this pizza place gets death threats, it's okay or even encouraged to take them seriously?

 daedalus wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That I agree, but I don't think the pizza place has or will have, anything actually bad happen to it. Closing because of threats on the internet is probebly one of the more stupid things I've heard. Death threats are practically the normal conversation equivalent of "feth you" on the internet nowadays, especially in the cespit that is social media.


While I agree in principle, I'm not sure that's something you can always reasonably take so lightheartedly, particularly when you have a family to worry about and the like.

Someone anonymously telling me "IMA KILL YOU MORAN!" on the internet in response to a comment I make is one thing.
Someone being able to look at a map and know when I'm going to be at work and get precise directions to said location who's saying it is a different caliber of creepy.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
There's no excuse for death threats, but I think blaming bad PR on "thought police" is a bit silly. They brought the bad PR on themselves by saying things meant to offend people.


They shouldn't have worn those short skirts. They brought it on themselves!


Since you bring it up, why are death threats against female gamers always dismissed or even hinted to be fraud perpetrated by the victims, but when this pizza place gets death threats, it's okay or even encouraged to take them seriously?


Er...what?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

 Manchu wrote:
 agnosto wrote:
Christians being targeted for hate crimes doesn't make them special, it makes them normal.
Dude don't lecture Christians about being hate crime targets ...



In all seriousness, what I am really pointing out is that the problem in this country (and in fact all over the world) is consistently that the majority bullies the minority.

A bunch of British guys realized as much two hundred years and some change ago and decided that needed to stop. Yes -- they were too ambitious. Yes -- they were hypocrites. But the hugeness of their goal and the fact that it was not even totally commensurate with their own way of life -- even the fact that they probably could not even imagine what a world where their goal was achieved would be like -- none of this stopped them. So they made a start: the Bill of Rights.

And although we successors to those British guys have made a lot of mistakes, including a constant parade of hypocrisies, we have never given up either. Legalizing gay marriage is one of the victories in that long struggle. Protecting the religious freedom of those who cannot in good conscience participate in the celebration of gay relationships is the issue facing us now.


lol. Forgot you were Catholic. A bit off-topic but I'll get to a point, I promise...
My first degree is in ancient history and I remember reading about the Cult of Mithras, a deity commonly worshipped by Roman soldiers. Temples to Mithras were commonly underground and were called a Mithraeum. Archaeologists in Italy found evidence of an early Christian temple located next to a Mithraeum (in hiding); at one point a door had been constructed between the two indicating amicable relations between the worshippers (Tolerance!) then later the door was walled-up from the Christian side, then the wall was later torn down and the Mithraeum defaced (intolerance) after Christianity became the dominant religion in Rome.

The moral? The dominate school of thought will always bully the minority, it's unfortunately human nature.

Interestingly enough, the majority of the founding fathers were deists, not technically Christians.

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 Manchu wrote:
 skyth wrote:
Tolerance does not require being tolerant of intolerance...
But doesn't tolerance require intolerance of intolerant tolerance advocates? I'd find that tolerable.

I laughed way to much when I read this.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Stonebeard wrote:
 skyth wrote:
 Stonebeard wrote:
 skyth wrote:
It's not for expressing their beliefs...It's for being a bigot. There is a difference.


Which, according to you, expressing said beliefs makes them a bigot. I seem to be missing the distinction.


The difference is you claim it's because of their beliefs. In reality it's because their beliefs are bigoted. Expressing the same beliefs without the religion attached to them would get the same results.

Of course, that fact doesn't play into the martry complex.


Still wouldn't be bigotted. Disagreeing with the moral validity of an action is in no way bigotted.



If it is considered less moral because it's a homosexual doing it then it is bigoted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 agnosto wrote:
 skyth wrote:
 Stonebeard wrote:
 skyth wrote:
It's not for expressing their beliefs...It's for being a bigot. There is a difference.


Which, according to you, expressing said beliefs makes them a bigot. I seem to be missing the distinction.


The difference is you claim it's because of their beliefs. In reality it's because their beliefs are bigoted. Expressing the same beliefs without the religion attached to them would get the same results.

Of course, that fact doesn't play into the martry complex.



The argument is that the 1st amendment allows you to hold and maintain and practice bigoted beliefs as long as you truly believe your religion teaches/professes those beliefs.


The 1st Amendment doesn't protect you from other people realizing you're a bigot though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/03 19:24:07


 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

skyth, I fear you missed my question earlier. Could you consider it for me and let me know what your opinion on the matter is:

"Is someone who hates someone else for their beliefs a bigot?"

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

Uh, guys. Since Indiana revised their law and the Gov signed it yesterday, does that prevent GenCon from moving?

Because, more than anything else in this thread, that's the heart of this debate, correct? How far Kronk has to drive to attend GenCon? If it stays in Indiana, it's only about a 3 hour drive. So, we're all good here?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/03 19:33:08


DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
.







At this point, it is all variations of a theme from you Skyth - is there any possible way you could move on to maybe something a bit different now?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

 skyth wrote:


The 1st Amendment doesn't protect you from other people realizing you're a bigot though.


This would be much less of a story if more people realized that and just avoided businesses that said stupid things.

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 kronk wrote:
Uh, guys. Since Indiana revised their law and the Gov signed it yesterday, does that prevent GenCon from moving?

Because, more than anything else in this thread, that's the heart of this debate, correct? How far Kronk has to drive to attend GenCon? If it stays in Indiana, it's only about a 3 hour drive. So, we're all good here?



The latest official comment on the Gencon site is that they're still going to be in Indy this year.

http://files.gencon.com/Gen_Con_Anti-Discrimination.30_Mar_2015.pdf

Dated March 30th. I think it's safe to say it's going to be the place this year regardless. Likely too late to relocate.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Grey Hunter




Greater Portland Petting Zoo

 skyth wrote:
 Stonebeard wrote:
 skyth wrote:
 Stonebeard wrote:
 skyth wrote:
It's not for expressing their beliefs...It's for being a bigot. There is a difference.


Which, according to you, expressing said beliefs makes them a bigot. I seem to be missing the distinction.


The difference is you claim it's because of their beliefs. In reality it's because their beliefs are bigoted. Expressing the same beliefs without the religion attached to them would get the same results.

Of course, that fact doesn't play into the martry complex.


Still wouldn't be bigotted. Disagreeing with the moral validity of an action is in no way bigotted.



If it is considered less moral because it's a homosexual doing it then it is bigoted.


Yes, it would be, and believing that anything a homosexual does is wrong because they are homosexuals would be, but that isn't the case, so happy days!

Edit: Just realized I've been spelling bigoted with two t's. gak.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/03 19:44:43


 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Manchu wrote:

In all seriousness, what I am really pointing out is that the problem in this country (and in fact all over the world) is consistently that the majority bullies the minority.


And then the minority gets angry, summons the similarly angry, and becomes the majority through a great deal of waling and gnashing of teeth....sometimes; it really depends on the case of minority.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 dogma wrote:
 Manchu wrote:

In all seriousness, what I am really pointing out is that the problem in this country (and in fact all over the world) is consistently that the majority bullies the minority.


And then the minority gets angry, summons the similarly angry, and becomes the majority through a great deal of waling and gnashing of teeth....sometimes; it really depends on the case of minority.


Which really shows the number of angry people there are, apparently.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

@Kronk - We will never know for sure, but I would bet that GenCon was never going to move over this.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

 dogma wrote:
 Manchu wrote:

In all seriousness, what I am really pointing out is that the problem in this country (and in fact all over the world) is consistently that the majority bullies the minority.


And then the minority gets angry, summons the similarly angry, and becomes the majority through a great deal of waling and gnashing of teeth....sometimes; it really depends on the case of minority.


Yemeni Houthis?

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

 Manchu wrote:
@Kronk - We will never know for sure, but I would bet that GenCon was never going to move over this.


Yay!

Kronk happy!


DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 agnosto wrote:

Yemeni Houthis?


Who is the Houthi family going to summon in support?

The Houthi family has plenty of problems getting itself together. International concerns are second order.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/03 20:27:27


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

 dogma wrote:
 agnosto wrote:

Yemeni Houthis?


Who is the Houthi family going to summon in support?


Example of angry minority. Though, you could say that they summoned Iran in support since they adopted the Iranian Revolutionary credo, "God is great, Death to America!" and evidence supports that they were armed by Iran.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/03 20:27:43


Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 agnosto wrote:
Though, you could say that they summoned Iran in support since they adopted the Iranian Revolutionary credo, "God is great, Death to America!" and evidence supports that they were armed by Iran.


What does Yemen offer to Iran?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/03 20:31:51


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

 dogma wrote:

What does Yemen offer to Iran?


Who wants to know?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/03 20:33:29


Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Florida

I live 50 minutes from the convention center. GenCon is the coolest thing this state ever does.

\m/ 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Baaaaack on topic please folks.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Let me put it another way. I am a Hellenic Pagan that primarily follows Hermes and Athena. Playing games, especially on a computer, has religous significance to me.

If someone were to say something derogative about the fact that I game, I would not take it as an attack on my religion. That is why I say that the pizza owners were not attacked for their religous beliefs.

As for the question if it would be bigotry for hating people for their beliefs, no I don't think so. It would be wrong unless those beliefs are focused around hurting other people, but it doesn't match my definition of bigotry.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

I think you'd have to pull off some impressive mental gymnastics to not call it bigotry. A more interesting approach would be to stop assuming that all bigotry is equal, or that it has to be wrong at all. Self-defence, while regrettable, is generally not frowned upon, so why should someone that is bigoted against bigots (meta-bigotry, if you will) be reviled? It is regrettable that it should come to such, to be sure, but why would it per definition have to be immoral?

Note that this post is not meant to take either side in the argument. I'll happily admit that I'm partial to the "this is discrimination for no good reason"-side as evidenced by this thread, but the above philosophical assumption intrigued me.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I guess how I define it has more to do with inherent properties rather than chosen properties.
   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

 skyth wrote:
Let me put it another way. I am a Hellenic Pagan that primarily follows Hermes and Athena. Playing games, especially on a computer, has religous significance to me.



Lots of computers around back then, eh?

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





No, but one of the things Hermes is in charge of is communication. Computers would be right up his alley and are appropriate things to honor him with.

Besides, I never said I was a Reconstructionist...Just a regular Hellenic Pagan. Intent is more important than form.

Of course, I'm sure you would never think to question a Christian priest about why they are using a microphone as part of a sermon when those weren't around in Jesus's day...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/04 02:24:25


 
   
 
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