Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
OK, I'm kind of struggling a little to see the appeal of Rangers given the other particulars of my planned list, am I right to discount them or am I missing something?

Nothing I've seen of Arquebus makes me want them. Precision Shots and AP4 is nice, but seem unnecessary given Vanguard, Kastelan, Kataphron etc can just delete the whole enemy unit rather than fannying about picking out one or two guys. The only utility I can see in Rangers is backfield objective camping, but in the context of my list which uses the Flesh Tearers rent-a-Rhino setup, I already have the unit of Scouts required by that formation to do that, and they're T4 with an enhanced cover save and a Missile Launcher.

The standard Galvanic Rifles are AP4.

Transauranic Arquebus is the 60", SX, AP3, Armourbane(resolves at S4), Sniper, Precision Shots Heavy 1 rifle.
When competing with Scouts and the nonsense of "Rent-A-Rhino", yeah Rangers come up short. But with pure Skitarii and the BS buffs that Doctrina Imperatives give?
Rangers can be popping most of the Dedicated Transports in the game easy at 60" and then starting to pick off Sergeants, Special Weapons/Icons/Whatever, and ICs as things move in closer.

I'm aware of that, hence why there was a full stop and not a comma between the first statement and the second. And I stand by the first statement; nothing about that profile, or the examples I've seen of it in use, make me excited to use TAs, particularly given it's high cost. Like the Rangers themselves, they seem nice enough when I look at it, but then you realise that each of its good qualities can be found elsewhere in the available options, usually in larger quantities and/or with better points efficiency.

You give a perfect example; transport popping at range. 60" is nice, but at standard size games on standard size tables is it necessary? Not often. If you set aside the hypothetical maximum engagement distance and think about more typical circumstances, even just mono'dex Skitarii have plenty of options with a 36-54" turn 1 threat range that can deal with vehicles; Neutron Lasers, Haywire and Plasma out the arse, even Icarus Arrays will ruin a Rhino's day with one of the high BS Imperatives.

Again, like the Rangers themselves, the only thing I can find that it offers I can't find elsewhere-but-better is Precision Shots, which is nice, but is it 25pts-each plus the Rangers to haul it plus the opportunity cost of not spending those points on more Vanguard/other stuff nice?

Vanguard shred hordes, MEQ, vehicles, and MCs alike, and with Rhinos eliminate their primary weaknesses; vulnerability if you don't get first turn, and lack of ability to rapidly redeploy.

Taken as part of a Skitarii Maniple FOC, Vanguard have Scout(but not Outflank) as does everything else in the army when taken as part of a Skitarii Maniple/War Cohort/Battle Maniple.

While you certainly don't have "rapid redeploy", you're not hurting for the ability to start setting the field up to your advantage from the start of the game onwards.

Providing you get first turn. And providing the enemy doesn't Seize. And providing you're not up against an extremely maneuverable enemy(one of which, Scatspam Eldar, is pretty much a hard-counter to all your infantry). Scout is fine, and you can see that it's meant to mitigate the lack of transports, but its adequacy is too situational to be satisfactory when compared to the reliability of a transport vehicle and the additional utility you gain from one.

All-Phosphor Kastelans provides all the ranged low-AP anti-infantry firepower a cybernetically enhanced being could want, on a tough unit that can march into the midfield and take punishment, with the potential to still be pretty dangerous in combat thanks to their MC status.

Which require you to set up everything the turn in advance. If you want to pop the double carapace weapon shots perk, you have to sacrifice your ability to move and your FNP...and you have to keep your Datasmith alive in order to use those perks.

Rangers don't have to worry about that, and while Kastelans are certainly more terrifying than Rangers--they're also HS versus the Troops that Rangers are. It's kind of like comparing a Dreadnought to a Scout Squad at that point.

To your first point; I don't see the disadvantage in the Kastelan programming system. It, like them, is not complex or subtle, PhosphorBots are not a finesse unit; you march them up into the part of the board you want to turn into a killing field, you switch on the extra-shots protocol, and you leave them there. If the enemy masses to try and eliminate them, you switch back to FNP, if they don't, you keep punishing them with extra shots. Worst case scenario if you pick the wrong one is your unit of multiwound T7 high save MCs take an extra wound or two, or you lose out on a handful of shots at your enemy; the protocols make Kastelans better, but I'd happily buy them at their price even if they didn't have protocols at all.

And what slot they occupy is immaterial; we have two Troops choices and both are excellent considered in isolation, so the only question is which synergise better with the other available units that appeal to you. If I have stuff that can pop transports, and stuff that can deal with 4+ and better saves, and stuff that can hold backfield objectives, where is my incentive to take an expensive unit of Rangers when I could spend those points elsewhere?

Kataphrons look like being tough, Relentless, and toting heavy plasma and grav weapons, giving you even more ranged firepower, and are potentially Troops in a list that will have an HQ, meaning they can be taken as a CAD and get ObSec, becoming far better objective holders than Rangers.

If the Heavy Plasma Calivers are anything like the Plasma Calivers, their range will be pretty low for a weapon of that size. There is a reason why I have only run Calivers in units of Vanguard. That 18 inch range makes them a bit weird when compared with the Rangers, who have 30" max range on Galvanic Rifles(15" for Rapid Fire).

Given the points cost we've seen mentioned on Kataphrons(something like 50-60 ppm) I would expect Terminator stats, and that "Canticles of the Omnissiah" special rule to be in effect. Notice how the Kastelans didn't come with FNP as standard? The current rumor is that Canticles add special rules for the army based on the number of units on the field with the Canticles special rule each turn.

We're probably talking slightly better than Terminators, since they appear to come in boxes of 3 on 50mm bases. We'll have to see on the range, I suspect the Heavy version will go up to 24-36", since giving the Heavy one even more shots would just be mental. Particularly given the rumoured formation; Christ could you imagine six of them landing via no-scatter Deep Strike with 5-shot(for eg) versions of the Calivers?

I can maybe see the utility of them in a pure-Skitarii list, or in smaller size games, but in the context of a dual-book AdMech army with Allies, at any point value game which allows you to afford Kastelans, they look very much to me like a rerun of Phosphor Onagers; decent when considered in isolation, but their role is just done better by other units.

The simple fact is that you've not seen them run correctly.

And really, what unit looks "good" when Allies come into play? Especially nonsense like the Flesh Tearers formation?

Well that's the point, lots of things. You could offer me all the MEQ Allies in the world, I'll take Vanguard thanks. Taser Infiltrators look to be one of the best CC units in the game outside of shenanigan-based Death Stars. You'd have to pay me not to take Phosphor Kastelans. Allies certainly change the dynamics of most armies, but that's why I specifically asked about the value of Rangers in that context, because that's how I plan to run the army(Skitters, CultMech, and Allied Transports/Centurions to fill gaps in the range I feel should have been part of the core offering).

I have been considering just a naked 5 man ranger squad.

They are more mobile(that move through cover), low points investment, and still decent without upgrades. Also while it is very situational having move through cover to not take the -2 movement on the charge is actually quite helpful.

 Gitsplitta wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
OK, I'm confused. Not a Mars player, or an imperial player..... What is this new release? I thought the Skitari book was the adeptus mechanicus?

There is a new dex coming as mentioned above. HQ, electro-priests, battle servitors and the robots of course, 4 units hardly seems to justify a new codex, but that's what they've decided to do. Perhaps each will have multiple build options as in the skitarii dex.

I've got a pet theory that GW wants to do a full Admech army, but wants to avoid a situtation of 2+ months decidated to a single release. so is chopping things up., this jives with the rumors of an eventual full sized admech codex release eventually.

One weakness of the kastelan maniple is that the priest is rather vulnerable. You'll want to deploy near your table edge so no one can get behind your robots.

Alternatively you could take a third robot and then they could be a rather effective mobile force. They are Cool chilling in the back in kill mode, but they don't get to convert to kill mode until your second turn. If you go first the side of the board with these bots will be a dead man's land. At turn 2 they put out 11 wounds a turn at ap 2 if my math is right. That's a squad of marines a turn, and more than half the wounds will be -1 cover because you can shoot the carapace mounted weapon first to my understand; seeing as how it isn't twin linked etc.

The hope is that the Kataphron are rather quick so they can get out and get objective, and they will definitly be very beefy as well. The breacher deep strike will be interesting even more so if the big guys, but the fear here is that your just gonna be waiting till turn 4 for them to come from reserves. Seeing as how they are melee they wont assault until after they deep strike. So, they'll only get to use their special weapons and chill out another turn. If they don't come out till turn 4 it wont be turn 5 until you get any effectiveness out to your 150+ points. So if they are quick enough most likely you wont want to deep strike them at all.

The Datasmith can be vulnerable, but remember he has a 2+/5++, 2W, and he's T7 thanks to majority toughness. Plus you can take extras for redundancy if you're really worried.

 Yodhrin wrote:
The Datasmith can be vulnerable, but remember he has a 2+/5++, 2W, and he's T7 thanks to majority toughness. Plus you can take extras for redundancy if you're really worried.

That's very true, how would you run them??/ i've bene thinking of running 3 robos and the datasmith, but eh seems way to expensive for 1500 takes up a third of the list, and when you activate super mode they start over killing units, but 3 lets you move the formation to get some objectives with out having to stay in unmoving kill mode all day.

2 is good and comes in nice at ~300 points which is very reasonable and in super shooter mode does enough wounds to whipe a squad of marines off the map a turn, but in regular mode they aren't quite as effective. So if you ever need to move them your not gonna be whipping a unit out.

 Yodhrin wrote:
The Datasmith can be vulnerable, but remember he has a 2+/5++, 2W, and he's T7 thanks to majority toughness. Plus you can take extras for redundancy if you're really worried.

He is T7 to wound him, but he still dies outright to a meltagun because his toughness is 4 and it doubles him out.

 Orock wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
The Datasmith can be vulnerable, but remember he has a 2+/5++, 2W, and he's T7 thanks to majority toughness. Plus you can take extras for redundancy if you're really worried.

He is T7 to wound him, but he still dies outright to a meltagun because his toughness is 4 and it doubles him out.

Look at that another good point, but he also can get look out sir if i'm not mistaken? Plus if you run the 3 big guys as i was saying before its not an issue because you just make a nice triangle and he's all good. Plus he's only really important if the robots are in stand still shooty mode because it means they can't move. The dude actually doesn't matter if you have them running around in FNP mode. The two robots just turn around and melt the melta squad like their made of butter.

edit: and you put your unit in a tiny bit of danger of getting their shot reflected on them. The big guys can take a melta shot a lot better than most.

This will probably sound like a really stupid idea to most of you, but how does a Skittarii army with Harlequin allies sound? I just like both armies and they are allies of con. with the Imperium, I also thought that Harlequins could fill in some gaps. Any ideas?

Decay wrote:
This will probably sound like a really stupid idea to most of you, but how does a Skittarii army with Harlequin allies sound? I just like both armies and they are allies of con. with the Imperium, I also thought that Harlequins could fill in some gaps. Any ideas?

What holes are you trying to fill in the Skitarii army?

I thought that the Harlequins are good CC units, so they would fill in that role.

Decay wrote:
I thought that the Harlequins are good CC units, so they would fill in that role.

Ruststalkers and Infiltrators fill that role. Unless you need to out-initiative someone.

Decay wrote:
I thought that the Harlequins are good CC units, so they would fill in that role.

CC isnt something anyone really lacks, as 40k has moved towards shooting with every edition.

Further how do you know that electropriests and the destroyers arent great in CC

Also Harlequins are ok in CC, but very fragile. If they were that critical to the success of an army, they would just get shot off the talbe.

Decay wrote:
I thought that the Harlequins are good CC units, so they would fill in that role.

Ruststalkers/Infiltrators are far better.

Yeah, that make much more sense, I was looking at other things when the best unit was sitting there all along. I'll keep it as an only Skitarii and Cult army.

 Fezza213 wrote:
a min sized unit comes with 2 robots and a datasmith, you can upgrade the robots powerfists with TL phosphor blaster (not sure on the stats on this but assuming S6 Assault 1 or Heavy 1), they can also replace their flamer (incendine Combustor) with a Heavy phosphor blaster S6, 3 shots, luminagen.

So thats 6 Str6 shots for a min sized unit (more depending on the str of the phosphor blaster). Sounds alright but the Kastellan Battle protocols DOUBLE the amount of shots at the expense of movement. So you could move a squad into place, switch protocols and next turn shoot 12 S6 shots at whatever didn't scurry away. Combine that with being a MC and 3+ saves and I think they look good.

Dont get me wrong, the lack of mobility in shooting may be a problem if you stick them in the open. To top it off add the new elimination formation which gives +1 BS and ignores cover and suddenly they become very strong in shooting (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/05/cult-mechanicus-formations-latest.html), not to mention that the luminagen reduces the targets cover save to other units not in the formation so shooting at that wraithknight and you dont quite kill it at least you have luminagen applied so other units can finish it off for you.

Those are my thoughts from what i have seen so far.

Fez

Thanks for sharing those thoughts because I want to use these Robots, got the WD, didn't see what to do with them really until you mentioned it.

I was just on the phone with a friend, he was telling me they're not worth it. But I'm guessing he didn't see the combination of Robots + Protocols + Formation; it's not his fault, as he hadn't see the Elimination Formation rules yet as we're still waiting on the Codex. But I can totally see the value in this.

 Exergy wrote:

Decay wrote:
I thought that the Harlequins are good CC units, so they would fill in that role.

CC isnt something anyone really lacks, as 40k has moved towards shooting with every edition.

I love it when people believe this, it makes it so easy to kill them in assault.

Harlequins are too expensive for what they bring to assault. In addition, you are an army of the imperium take advantage of that. There are plenty of imperial assault units that you can use to your advantage

 Leth wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Decay wrote:
I thought that the Harlequins are good CC units, so they would fill in that role.

CC isnt something anyone really lacks, as 40k has moved towards shooting with every edition.

I love it when people believe this, it makes it so easy to kill them in assault.

Harlequins are too expensive for what they bring to assault. In addition, you are an army of the imperium take advantage of that. There are plenty of imperial assault units that you can use to your advantage

Grey Knight terminators might be a pretty effective unit if you're looking for some chop. bring em alongside a ML3 librarian and you also provide some psyker potential

Nah, it's fine, I'll stick to Mech

Hey decay its hard to stick harli ad skit together, but it's not so bad. Dragoons are your CC unit and they are pretty good. The only thing is they allow for targets for your enemy's anti vehicles weapons. If you could get a better on foot CC unit out of harli it wont to give it a try... well your wallet might not like it.

 Kommissar Waaaghrick wrote:

 Fezza213 wrote:
a min sized unit comes with 2 robots and a datasmith, you can upgrade the robots powerfists with TL phosphor blaster (not sure on the stats on this but assuming S6 Assault 1 or Heavy 1), they can also replace their flamer (incendine Combustor) with a Heavy phosphor blaster S6, 3 shots, luminagen.

So thats 6 Str6 shots for a min sized unit (more depending on the str of the phosphor blaster). Sounds alright but the Kastellan Battle protocols DOUBLE the amount of shots at the expense of movement. So you could move a squad into place, switch protocols and next turn shoot 12 S6 shots at whatever didn't scurry away. Combine that with being a MC and 3+ saves and I think they look good.

Dont get me wrong, the lack of mobility in shooting may be a problem if you stick them in the open. To top it off add the new elimination formation which gives +1 BS and ignores cover and suddenly they become very strong in shooting (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/05/cult-mechanicus-formations-latest.html), not to mention that the luminagen reduces the targets cover save to other units not in the formation so shooting at that wraithknight and you dont quite kill it at least you have luminagen applied so other units can finish it off for you.

Those are my thoughts from what i have seen so far.

Fez

Thanks for sharing those thoughts because I want to use these Robots, got the WD, didn't see what to do with them really until you mentioned it.

I was just on the phone with a friend, he was telling me they're not worth it. But I'm guessing he didn't see the combination of Robots + Protocols + Formation; it's not his fault, as he hadn't see the Elimination Formation rules yet as we're still waiting on the Codex. But I can totally see the value in this.

THey are pretty strong i think most folks who are interested in playing an army usually poo poo new units that come out. this is because thier instinct is to thinking about countering and kill them.

These robots bring 7 MEQ wounds a turn and 11 when they are in shooter mode. The more i think about it the better i think they'll be in mobile mode because these units are no sneeze in melee even without the fist. They hit like the trucks they are. I think when you stop them for moving you have 300 points of a very elite army (thier troops are 50 points a pop) than you just gave up a large fraction of your objective holding force.)

I think shooting and combat mode will actually be best used on turn at a time then swapping back to normal operations to capture objectives of quire new targets. Plus in shooting mode they can't charge. These guys can pump out 7 MEQ wounds then charge. By doing this you double their mobility because they are basically running and shooting every turn.

Canticles, formation, and so on only make them better. Dont forget you have wargear that the smith can wear and special weapons.

Okay I had my first experience fielding Skitarii yesterday, it was a 3000 point game vs. a Mono ork list. I had relatively small contingent of Skitarii troops-
5 man Ranger squad, naked
5 man Vanguard squad, arc rifles and pistol
10 man Vanguard squad, 3x Plasma Calivers, Warlord Alpha
5 man Infiltrators with taser/uzi loadout, Infoslave, 4++ on princep

Game was Tactical Escalation from the Maelstrom list

The rest of my list was Blood Angels and Guard with a Steel Host formation. My impressions of the units-

Rangers didn't do much against ork boys. I guess I expected more, perhaps unfairly, but I assumed S4 AP4 would have done something. I'll elaborate when I talk about the Vanguard.

Vanguard are amazing. The cancer guns, and cancer armor (radiation rules for various things) are a godsend especially against orks. I was playing against 'ard boys with 4+ armor saves, but vanguard on average still did a few wounds, and were even able to do some damage in close combat thanks to the -1 toughness. The cancer armor rule would have been nice to have on the Rangers when they got charged.

The ork player was running a nob bikerstar, the unit that has 3+ jink, 4+ armor, FNP, etc and basically saves away any wounds you cause then jumps into CC with powerclaws. My Skitarii Vanguard triple plasma squad with the warlord alpha (giving them PE) killed more than half of the squad after dropping in a drop pod, in exchange for one of my plasma gunners dying. I'm going to call that a win. Omnispex really helped with those jink saves. Definitely a unit I will continue to field. You have to figure that your warlord will probably die over the course of the game anyway, so he might as well do something useful. The alpha also held in CC against a bunch of grots for a couple turns haha.

I decided to outflank the infiltrators to give the list some more backfield presence, it was a good idea as one of my objectives was to capture an objective on his side of the field. I didn't really get to see what all they can do against harder targets, but they seem to do just fine against grots and small units of boys. Just be careful with charging into terrain with these guys, I lucked out as because of neurostatic aura the boys were also initiative 1, so we struck at the same time and I bumped my WS to 6 that turn with the Doctrina Imperatives, making it hard to hit me. Since they don't have assault grenades, assaulting into terrain could actually hurt these guys a lot.

In this same game I actually took 8 Death Company with Jump Packs, a couple power weapons (which got shot before they could swing, probably my fault) and a Chaplain with a Jump Pack. That unit did nearly nothing but draw fire. I'm thinking I would actually much rather have a couple units of Sydonian Dragoons for CC threat, as their mobility is comparable, and honestly so is their price. They have similar roles, role a ton of AP- hits and overwhelm the opponent with saves, the Dragoons hit harder and IMO are harder to kill than T4, 3+, FNP. For the price I paid for that single Death Company squad I fielded, I could have instead taken 2 units of 3 Sydonian Dragoons, and I would have had more stuff to use with my Doctrina Imperatives. Never thought Dragoons would sound like a better option than Death Company, but to me right now they do.

That's all I have for you guys. I'll be able to play some more games soon hopefully.

Season vet checking in, I have looked at the codex, read this thread, and other threads and I agree with most players that the book has potential. At the moment I dont have much to add except that I agree that the combination with blood angels is really good and will be my starting point. I am a bit of an an analytical so I have to study the new Blood Angels codex as much as the skitarii codex to get the best possible list, I plan on going to ITC tournaments and want to build the best TAC list as possible. I think or atleast I hope my input will be valuable to others as this thread has proven to be very valuable to me.

I feel kind of bad for not contributing anything to the thread so I will just throw out an idea that I think is worthy of discussion, which is the power of auspex combine with omnispex. Negative 2 to cover saves with all the ap 2 and haywire shots we have available is definetly something we should take advantage of, especially when the upgrades are cheap. A cheap Hq with an auspex, a squad with an omnispex, 2x plasma calivers, and the relic phosphoenix, in a drop pod will get you 6 plasma gun shots, on a hit 3 more ap 2 shots all - 2 cover save or you can do the arc gun equivalent and have 5 haywire shots.

The Auspex is a trade off, do you spend 39 points on another Vanguard with a plasma caliver, or do spend 55 on a techmarine with an Auspex? Or 65 if you go for a Sang. Priest?

 ultimentra wrote:
The Auspex is a trade off, do you spend 39 points on another Vanguard with a plasma caliver, or do spend 55 on a techmarine with an Auspex? Or 65 if you go for a Sang. Priest?

If you're bringing Flesh Tearers, you need an HQ anyway (presumably a Sanguinary Priest as it helps the few "tax" Blood Angels that much better), so an Auspex seems like an easy investment. Its a relatively token amount of points, that combined with Lumingen, and an Omnispex, essentially makes your army, or a unit that really needs it, ignores cover.

CKO - I'd ignore the Phosphoenix if I were you, it's just too expensive considering it's 6" range. If you want a relic go with the Phase Taser or Pater Radium, and leave Luminagen application to Kastelans or Onagers where it comes on a high Str, low AP weapon with 36" range.

Yep, I agree 100% I plan of leaving the luminogen to the Onager or two I plan to run solo in my army.

Auspex on mandatory BA HQ is pretty helpful as well

Is there general consensus that the Neutronager and Icarus Onager are the two viable loadouts for the Onager? I can see limited use of the Eradication Beamer for anti-horde, but I can see nothing a Phosphoger can provide that Kastelans don't do better.
I personally built my Onager as a Neutronager (2x Stubber, IWND, NL)

Magnetized mine between Neutron and Eradication. Unless I see something out of Cult, Vanguard are the only shot at anti-horde AdMech has - and they usually tote Arc Rifles, which would make that a bit of a waste.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
The Auspex is a trade off, do you spend 39 points on another Vanguard with a plasma caliver, or do spend 55 on a techmarine with an Auspex? Or 65 if you go for a Sang. Priest?

If you're bringing Flesh Tearers, you need an HQ anyway (presumably a Sanguinary Priest as it helps the few "tax" Blood Angels that much better), so an Auspex seems like an easy investment. Its a relatively token amount of points, that combined with Lumingen, and an Omnispex, essentially makes your army, or a unit that really needs it, ignores cover.

I disagree, I think 65 points is too much for a model which functionally does nothing but provide an Auspex. Can anyone here do some quick math hammer on 6 plasma caliver shots, Omni and Auspex vs. 9 Plasma caliver shots with only an omni against MEQ in cover, or jinking marine bikers?

 Yodhrin wrote:
CKO - I'd ignore the Phosphoenix if I were you, it's just too expensive considering it's 6" range. If you want a relic go with the Phase Taser or Pater Radium, and leave Luminagen application to Kastelans or Onagers where it comes on a high Str, low AP weapon with 36" range.

Speaking of relics can we talk about how awesome The Omnicient Mask is on Rustalkers? It would be worth 20 points just for them to re-roll hits (you need every haywire grenade to land on a Knight) but also making them Fearless will keep them from being swept which is a big risk for them. I think that relic is an auto-take. I'm considering running two Rustalker units in Land Raiders, one with the mask and the other with a zealous Interrogator-Chaplain.

Now what's a good way to model The Omnicient Mask? Maybe borrow a Blood Angel roman mask thing? maybe even a bulbous Archon head?