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2015/06/29 23:05:23
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
Wow, mikhaila thanks for sharing. Sounds like Warhammer is truely dead as a game now, and will exist solely as a mechanism for selling minis. Also means no tournament is going to run sigmar - 8th edition will probably become immortal - might even get a community update to fix some of the less balanced parts of the game.
I was excited about this release, but if what you say is true then I can't imagine any serious wargamer being interested in this - even when I was a 12 year old kid first getting into warhammer I was into the army books and the points system and everything. Just don't get this move by GW.
2015/06/29 23:07:56
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
Sorry to hear about that. It sucks from the perspective of a player but I'm sure it is even worse when it isn't just a hobby but rather a not insignificant part of what puts food on the table. If 40k cranked the stupid up to 11 with 6e and broke the knob with 7e, I shudder to think what a completely point free scifi game it may become in a few years.
2015/06/29 23:09:39
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
Bull0 wrote: Very bizarre indeed. Thanks for sharing. Balancing by model count obviously won't work unless they're going to homogenize the model range a *lot*. Be interesting to see what comes out of the rules release at the weekend but if this is true, I'm highly skeptical there'll be a decent game at the end of it.
I am quite skeptical too.. but on the other hand... Heroes of Might and Magic use to work on that system and it is a legacy for me.
Grrr.... Cheese make me fart...
2015/06/29 23:12:47
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
Sorry to hear about that. It sucks from the perspective of a player but I'm sure it is even worse when it isn't just a hobby but rather a not insignificant part of what puts food on the table. If 40k cranked the stupid up to 11 with 6e and broke the knob with 7e, I shudder to think what a completely point free scifi game it may become in a few years.
And what's worse is that GW will dump a load of this completely crap product on stores, clogging up their shelf space and stockrooms with a product that nobody wants and won't sell.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/06/29 23:14:44
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
Pepticsalve wrote: Wow, mikhaila thanks for sharing. Sounds like Warhammer is truely dead as a game now, and will exist solely as a mechanism for selling minis. Also means no tournament is going to run sigmar - 8th edition will probably become immortal - might even get a community update to fix some of the less balanced parts of the game.
I was excited about this release, but if what you say is true then I can't imagine any serious wargamer being interested in this - even when I was a 12 year old kid first getting into warhammer I was into the army books and the points system and everything. Just don't get this move by GW.
RedFox wrote: So basically Age of Sigmar is a board game that is meant to only be played with the included miniatures...
maybe that other rumored rulebook will introduce a more advanced system with point cost and all
I wish. They told me this is it. No other rules.
....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
2015/06/29 23:18:14
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Incidentally, is anyone familiar with the fun, but now dead game "Arcane Legions"? I ask because it was actually a very solid, mass-battles game, with some interesting mechanics... and its core rules were a six page document.
I just thought it felt like a relevant example of rules requiring less verbosity than we expect out of modern games, especially when special abilities can be spelled out in greater detail on supplemental materials like unit-cards.
I for one, am hyped by the sound of a lot of this... especially the "risk free" part where I can be playing, and thus really evaluating the rules within ten minutes of downloading them (the week after GW's destroyed servers come back online).
That game looked ass on the table (green army man level sculpts in 20mm on huge movement trays you couldn't flock because they had stats printed on them) but the system was brilliant.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2015/06/29 23:18:17
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
I thought GW was trying to get away from the idea of codexes/army books containing special rules and the BRB containing all the USRs. Now we're sorta back to the BRB (all of 4 pages of it) being the stripped-down core and the Warscrolls describing the special rules and wargear again. Why is this better? Framing it in a 40K perspective, does everyone remember how may different types of storm shields or psychic hoods there were between multiple books? Everytime they reprinted the rule, they worded it slightly differently or they completely changed how it worked.
GW stopped doing online FAQs. What makes anyone believe they intend on keeping these free warscrolls updated and working well within the framework of newer units being added year after year? This whole thing reeks of GW just throwing its hands up and saying to the gamer "y'all figure it out for yourselves, writing rules is hard, we'll be over here in the corner making miniatures."
I've got a real bad feeling about AoS, and I really hope I'm wrong.
OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....
Just spent an hour and a half on the phone with GW, them trying in vain to make me understand how I can play the game, let alone how i could make someone want to buy it.
It has no points, no system to balance armies, nothing whatsoever tells the two players what they can put on the table.
Just play with what you want to play with.
SNIPPAGE
I've actually been in tears today over what they did to WFB. I have no idea how I will sell this game in my shop other than an expensive boardgame.
So Mike, did you learnt this AFTER you committed to a stock order?
I hope not...
From South Street to Baltimore.
Been there, done that.
2015/06/29 23:22:56
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
I will bet my car, both my arms and legs, the soul of my first-born, that AoS isn't as well designed as that game.
Thank you for the tip! But I only play GW games :-)
Thinking of picking up Neferata Mortarch of Blood as it's such an incredible model.
(This is the last time I will keep banging the drum, honest!)
What if I told you the game was designed/written by Alessio Cavatore? I'm guessing from your sig you have followed GW games for a while, so you shouldn't need an introduction about who he is.
The game plays like a mix of a smaller, skirmish scale of LoTR (which Alessio also designed) mixed with some Bolt Action (a game which was part-designed by Rick Priestly - the guy who designed 40k of course!)
So, you have to think, do you relate to the living, breathing human being behind the creation of something? Or the badge on the box? Cause I can guarantee you there is more of the 'soul' of GW in Terminator than there is in this AoS game that is coming over the horizon. It's the kind of game GW themselves probably would have made in the 90's if they had had the lisense.
OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....
Just spent an hour and a half on the phone with GW, them trying in vain to make me understand how I can play the game, let alone how i could make someone want to buy it.
It has no points, no system to balance armies, nothing whatsoever tells the two players what they can put on the table.
Just play with what you want to play with.
I'm having trouble with the idea of two 12 year olds opening up figure cases and playing a game....let alone running a league, or a tournament.
I argued and asked for any reason they didn't have a points system. They just kept telling me it doesn't have one, doesn't need one, the game has things that give the player with least models an advantage, or why one dragon gets killed by a unit. It was like talking with people that don't play the game. Have never played the game. Only played the scenarios in AoS.
With the vast difference in profile between models in Warhammer, it's absurd to think you can balance by model count.
And you can't balance by Warscroll, this is just multiple models which can have hugely different numbers and stats.
And you can't balance by wounds. Chaos Warrior = 1 goblin? Nagash = 10 goblins?
In fact, Nagash or a large dragon or blood thirster is aways optimal. Warscrolls =1, Model count =1, Wounds < 10.
Because of the huge difference in power of the playing pieces, nothing makes sense unless you balance by a number that reflects the value of the individual piece in the game.
AoS is essentially Unbound armies where you bring what you want. You aren't even restricted by faction, you just might have models that don't gain a bonus others might from an icon or leader.
I've actually been in tears today over what they did to WFB. I have no idea how I will sell this game in my shop other than an expensive boardgame.
Ayup, aaaaand we're done.
Seriously GW, seriously. Seriously.
Seriously.
It's like they're cursed to always almost do things right. They finally resolve to reinvigorate Warhammer...but they do it by killing off the game and the fiction. They design(perhaps that's too strong a word for...whatever this drek is) the replacement to bring down the entry point to a more affordable level and they put the rules out for free...but they also completely throw out any pretense that they're selling a game rather than rules for showing other people the contents of your display case in a public setting.
At this point I think the only entertainment value left in the once-beloved Warhammer Fantasy is going to be watching the usual suspects polish up that armour and try to defend this utter, utter pish.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2015/06/29 23:25:15
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
If take what you want turns out to be true, this game is an insult to Warhammer brand.
The players they want to attract are not historical wargamers and not seasoned enough to leave balancing in their hands. No balance at all makes the game "roll dice to see something awesome" kiddie affair where tactics will decide 1 in 50 games or sth. Btw unless a dragon and goblin unit are the same in damage output and resiliency, even a hardcore wargamer will have a hard time balancing such a game and it will go to crap anyway when attempting to play a stranger. Really this seems to be much worse than anticipated.
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
How could I look away?
2015/06/29 23:25:50
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
What a rollercoaster this has been. I was actually quite excited by what we were hearing from Mikhaila. But no points and unbound being the core list building system sounds absurd.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2015/06/29 23:27:21
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
Well, just talk to a guy working in my LGS, and he told me that he indeed receive info saying that they will be no point cost, and no ways to balance opposing armies.
This system is already dead. What a bunch of idiots, Wasn't it already stated that the lack of succes of INQ was in large part due to the absence of point cost? Mindboggling
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/29 23:29:36
lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039
2015/06/29 23:29:18
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
My only ray of hope here is that the balancing stuff - proper army lists with points costs - might just be coming later? Didn't some of the rumours originally say there'd be no rules for existing models, just the "skirmish" game - and then we did 180 on that because we've now heard there *will* be rules - but in fact maybe those "rules" are just statlines and the armies will get some proper army books / rules later?
Bloody GW and their Omerta.
Dead account, no takesy-backsies
2015/06/29 23:29:23
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
Pacific wrote: I have to say that sounds absolutely horrendous. You couldn't make this gak up, it's like the ship is being purposefully steered into the iceberg.
I will bet my car, both my arms and legs, the soul of my first-born, that AoS isn't as well designed as that game.
Thank you for the tip! But I only play GW games :-)
Thinking of picking up Neferata Mortarch of Blood as it's such an incredible model.
(This is the last time I will keep banging the drum, honest!)
What if I told you the game was designed/written by Alessio Cavatore? I'm guessing from your sig you have followed GW games for a while, so you shouldn't need an introduction about who he is.
The game plays like a mix of a smaller, skirmish scale of LoTR (which Alessio also designed) mixed with some Bolt Action (a game which was part-designed by Rick Priestly - the guy who designed 40k of course!)
So, you have to think, do you relate to the living, breathing human being behind the creation of something? Or the badge on the box? Cause I can guarantee you there is more of the 'soul' of GW in Terminator than there is in this AoS game that is coming over the horizon. It's the kind of game GW themselves probably would have made in the 90's if they had had the lisense.
*Puts drum away* OK that's it now!
Alessio was also responsible for the godawful Skaven and Vampire Counts books; so stop pretending that his involvement is some kind of a "selling point" or that means there will be no issues.
2015/06/29 23:30:01
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
The thing I can't get my head around is why this new game has utterly replaced warhammer 8th edition when clearly they are so different? Why games workshop felt the need to totally destroy over 20 years of gaming community seems crazy, especially if both games can use the game models. Why not keep support for 8th edition and run sigmar alongside as a 'lite' wargame.
I've been through the emotions like many people on this thread - this is part of our childhoods and its been wiped away clean. But 8th edition will carry on - and I'm going to save the money I would have spent on sigmar and buy start putting an 8th edition army together instead - I imagine a lot of people will carry on with 8th edition now we know what sigmar is all about. It could have been awesome - but from what we have heard over the last few hours it sounds like a total joke. I keep checking the calendar to see if its the 1st of April.
2015/06/29 23:31:06
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
mikhaila wrote: OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....
Just spent an hour and a half on the phone with GW, them trying in vain to make me understand how I can play the game, let alone how i could make someone want to buy it.
It has no points, no system to balance armies, nothing whatsoever tells the two players what they can put on the table.
Just play with what you want to play with.
I'm having trouble with the idea of two 12 year olds opening up figure cases and playing a game....let alone running a league, or a tournament.
---cut---
Damn. I did not have much, if any,hope for AoS but I didn't expect it to be that bad.
Long term I suppose it might be better that AoS tank spectacularly rather than dies a slow death, so that players can move on to other systems quicker and hopefully be less shattered between GW systems ad others. It's problematic for the stores depending on revenue from selling GW products to have to find alternative incomes on short notice of course.
mikhaila wrote: OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....
Just spent an hour and a half on the phone with GW, them trying in vain to make me understand how I can play the game, let alone how i could make someone want to buy it.
It has no points, no system to balance armies, nothing whatsoever tells the two players what they can put on the table.
Just play with what you want to play with.
I'm having trouble with the idea of two 12 year olds opening up figure cases and playing a game....let alone running a league, or a tournament. ---cut---
Damn. I did not have much, if any,hope for AoS but I didn't expect it to be that bad.
Long term I suppose it might be better that AoS tank spectacularly rather than dies a slow death, so that players can move on to other systems quicker and hopefully be less shattered between GW systems ad others. It's problematic for the stores depending on revenue from selling GW products to have to find alternative incomes on short notice of course.
Many fantasy systems out there will be compatible with GW miniatures. So hopefully the stores can just continue ordering the minis and promote those games instead without having to also order GWs latest garbage game.
And we thought Dreadfleet was bad...
Only thing I can really think of to do in order to let GW know how badly they've messed this up is to have an organised mailing campaign against them. Organise players to write down their issues and complaints in a physical letter and send it, with recorded postage so someone at GW has to come and sign for that letter, to their HQ.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/29 23:40:17
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/06/29 23:36:33
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
Design a game that allows someone to take what they want, right off the shelf, and plop it onto the table.
Make the entry point absolutely as LOW as possible from a planning stage and make it all about selling the shiny models.
If the Games Dev team WANTED to do this, I would be surprised (although not out of the question).
Has anyone heard if Jeremy Vetock is still involved with the UK studio? If he had a hand in this, I would be a little more optimistic. Otherwise, 7th edition is where I hang my hat for the rest of my Warhammer life.
From South Street to Baltimore.
Been there, done that.
2015/06/29 23:37:11
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
mikhaila wrote: OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....
Just spent an hour and a half on the phone with GW, them trying in vain to make me understand how I can play the game, let alone how i could make someone want to buy it.
It has no points, no system to balance armies, nothing whatsoever tells the two players what they can put on the table.
Just play with what you want to play with.
I'm having trouble with the idea of two 12 year olds opening up figure cases and playing a game....let alone running a league, or a tournament.
---cut---
Damn. I did not have much, if any,hope for AoS but I didn't expect it to be that bad.
Long term I suppose it might be better that AoS tank spectacularly rather than dies a slow death, so that players can move on to other systems quicker and hopefully be less shattered between GW systems ad others. It's problematic for the stores depending on revenue from selling GW products to have to find alternative incomes on short notice of course.
The only problem is if AoS tanks spectacularly, GW are likely to simply kill Fantasy for good, including the model range. Fine if you've already got everything you want or want nothing, but for folk with 8th Ed armies to complete, Mordheim warbands to build, or who use Fantasy kits as a source of bitz for 40K/INQ28 conversions it would be craptacular.
On the other hand, if AoS does even moderately well, GW might decide to inflict this atrocity on 40K as well, so really there are no good outcomes I can see at this stage.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2015/06/29 23:39:30
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July -- Sigmar and Chaos pics in 1st post
mikhaila wrote: OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....
Just spent an hour and a half on the phone with GW, them trying in vain to make me understand how I can play the game, let alone how i could make someone want to buy it.
It has no points, no system to balance armies, nothing whatsoever tells the two players what they can put on the table.
Just play with what you want to play with.
I'm having trouble with the idea of two 12 year olds opening up figure cases and playing a game....let alone running a league, or a tournament.
---cut---
Damn. I did not have much, if any,hope for AoS but I didn't expect it to be that bad.
Long term I suppose it might be better that AoS tank spectacularly rather than dies a slow death, so that players can move on to other systems quicker and hopefully be less shattered between GW systems ad others. It's problematic for the stores depending on revenue from selling GW products to have to find alternative incomes on short notice of course.
Many fantasy systems out there will be compatible with GW miniatures. So hopefully the stores can just continue ordering the minis and promote those games instead without having to also order GWs latest garbage game.
I guess. At least as long as GW keeps producing the older minis.
pretre wrote: A lot of rumor mongers are going to take a big hit on this. Wow.
I'll help you out with what I posted before:
All current models stay valid: looks like a truth right now
Round bases were for display purposes, and we don't have to rebase: semi true, but probably leaning more towards false: seeing how round bases ARE now the norm, but we don't have to actually rebase. You can call that one however you'd like.
This Age of Sigmar box release is a board game, not the actual full game release: sounds like a false in my book.
So I'm fine with having a 1/1/1 across the board. I think I had one more thing but forgot what it was.
LInk to the original or is it in the tracker already?
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