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That's the oddest thing. They could have gone through the End Times series but stop short of blowing the planet up.

Set the new game in the shattered remains but keep things recognizable from a lore perspective. No sense in tossing it aside (Considering the court case ruled that people can make add-ons etc referencing whatever GW calls their stuff)

That way Total War would actually reference your product. You could have the game follow the same story without it being a massive overhaul when they hit the End Times events.

As is, It will be a massive marketing fail as it's almost unrecognizable to the computer gamer.

Oh, and now they set the precedent that NOTHING is sacred...

Anything can happen to this NEW world.

And there is a clean slate and a new canvas to write an entirely NEW storyline.

So that breathes life... and maybe sales/money into the coffers and the gaming community.

Not that I will be IN that community... unless something REALLY surprising happens in the next 3 months,

so when they list the factions for order.... Is my existing empire army now these "red slayer mercenaries", who no one trusts and are greey mercenaries who fight for gold?

like..... That kinda realy pisses me off. I like the empire because their best stories was about how a few little humans could stand up to the horrors of the old world. The Knightly orders well bad ass, were still normal humans. They worked hard to be awsome.

But the sigmariens are super humans who have had everything given to them, and now they are the pillars of what humans should look up to?

Wasn't the whole point of sigmar's story that was he was a normal human that achieved great things and became immortal? Sigmar was likeable because he EARNED all that he got. But these storm-evers were just made awsome?

nope. nope. nope.


I do not like this change one bit.

 Da Boss wrote:
I wonder how long the sales slouch has been going on for? When was the tipping point? I've been playing Warhammer since 5th edition, and I definitely remember the high point being 6th/start of 7th. For me, the game started to break down with some of those army books released in late 7th. Was that the turning point, or was it 8th?

I'd really like to know.

So much going on in the world right now, and yet this is the story I'm apparently following most avidly. Go figure.

So without disclosing any personal info, Warhammer was considered in trouble as far back as early 2000's.
6th was a GREAT version IMHO.
Designed for tournament play. Balanced. Maybe a little TOO tough on heroes, but still good.
7th was a rehash.
Never played 8th.


I think they made a GREAT effort trying to maintain, but then pricing became part of the attempt at a solution.
Then the crazy over the top $100 models.

But ultimately people weren't spending the TIME to build an army.

So here we are.

I still like the Old World, and I still enjoy 8th edition....could use a couple of minor tweaks...like nerfing Steadfast a little.

But the army books (for the most part) are balanced with one another. I'm hoping that we can keep a 'living edition' and community alive because from what I've seen so far, this new game...is not for me.

RacerX wrote:
Oh, and now they set the precedent that NOTHING is sacred...

Anything can happen to this NEW world.

And there is a clean slate and a new canvas to write an entirely NEW storyline.

So that breathes life... and maybe sales/money into the coffers and the gaming community.

Not that I will be IN that community... unless something REALLY surprising happens in the next 3 months,

Hopefully this game is dead and forgotten in the next few months. Before it poisons the other system.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

RacerX wrote:
Oh, and now they set the precedent that NOTHING is sacred...

Anything can happen to this NEW world.

And there is a clean slate and a new canvas to write an entirely NEW storyline.

So that breathes life... and maybe sales/money into the coffers and the gaming community.

Not that I will be IN that community... unless something REALLY surprising happens in the next 3 months,

Hopefully this game is dead and forgotten in the next few months. Before it poisons the other system.

What other systems? The only other game GW bassicly supports that this point in warhammer 40k lol.

I hope I'll still be allowed to play 8th in store, though seeing as they no longer sell the rules, it'll probably be treated as a specialist game, so Tuesday nights only...

 Lockark wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

RacerX wrote:
Oh, and now they set the precedent that NOTHING is sacred...

Anything can happen to this NEW world.

And there is a clean slate and a new canvas to write an entirely NEW storyline.

So that breathes life... and maybe sales/money into the coffers and the gaming community.

Not that I will be IN that community... unless something REALLY surprising happens in the next 3 months,

Hopefully this game is dead and forgotten in the next few months. Before it poisons the other system.

What other systems? The only other game GW bassicly supports that this point in warhammer 40k lol.

Hence the singular use of system.

 Grimtuff wrote:

RacerX wrote:
Occams Razor.

Sometimes the obvious answer is all there is.

Warhammer slouching - had been for YEARS!

Release really nice starter set (Dwarf and Goblins)
Two COMPLETE (albiet smallish) armies of high quality.
A true stand-alone product.

Sales continue to tank.

Try again!
Release even NICER Starter set (Elves and Skaven).

Sales continue to tank.
No traction and community drying up.

Realize old players are majority.

Release tons of Really LARGE and NICE and expensive models.
Make BIG SCARY Nuclear Weapons in Warhammer to attract power hungry younger gamers who just want to win.

Sales continue to tank.


Throw in the towel and REBOOT!


Die a slow death, or roll the dice and take it into an entirely NEW direction and just MAYBE save the brand.

Why the hell not?? What is there to lose?

"We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche."

Exactly.

The most telling phrase in RacerX's lengthy missive is "roll the dice."

No company should be embarking on a project like this by "rolling the dice." They should have a clear idea who they're selling to, why the old product wasn't working,and they should know what the people that aren't buying are looking for.

They should then be alloying that with what is practical and economical from a production point of view and aiming to get as close as possible as they can't to that ideal.

The fact GW have no idea about any of the things I've italicised is the key to the whole issue, that and they appear to have decided that the customers they have aren't the customers they want, and the customers they want aren't is interested as GW thinks.

 Xyxox wrote:

 bubber wrote:
They should have just called it 'Warhammer Vista'.

Surely Warhammer 8 would be more fitting (Although super confusing) with the whole controversy over removing the Start Menu. Wait for Warhammer 10

RacerX wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I wonder how long the sales slouch has been going on for? When was the tipping point? I've been playing Warhammer since 5th edition, and I definitely remember the high point being 6th/start of 7th. For me, the game started to break down with some of those army books released in late 7th. Was that the turning point, or was it 8th?

I'd really like to know.

So much going on in the world right now, and yet this is the story I'm apparently following most avidly. Go figure.

So without disclosing any personal info, Warhammer was considered in trouble as far back as early 2000's.
6th was a GREAT version IMHO.
Designed for tournament play. Balanced. Maybe a little TOO tough on heroes, but still good.
7th was a rehash.
Never played 8th.


I think they made a GREAT effort trying to maintain, but then pricing became part of the attempt at a solution.
Then the crazy over the top $100 models.

But ultimately people weren't spending the TIME to build an army.

So here we are.

I think if the game was in that much trouble as far back as 15 years ago they wouldn't have released new factions such as Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms in favour of cutting down on the number of supported armies and costs. The problems with Warhammer became terminal with 8th edition. It's simple logic: if you are trying to attract new gamers don't insist on a game system that requires hundreds of models while also raising the model costs to obscene levels.

From the fluff perspective I don't think it can be said that the Chaos invading Empire angle was boring but more a case that GW wanted to just leave things hanging in a limbo for most factions. The campaigns that were run in the early 2000s showed a lack of imagination too: Albion, Storm of Chaos etc led to no discernible change in the fluff once they were wrapped up at the time. I think this is why there was so much excitement when the End Times series began because it seemed GW was finally going to move the timeline and story on in interesting ways. Unfortunately they then blew the world up...

6th/7th I think was the highpoint. Sold a lot of it in those years. Frankly, the problems started in 8th, and were not helped by the price rises from GW, and their abandonment of the community.

I'd guess making a lot of kits direct only didn't help either.

RacerX wrote:
Occams Razor.

Sometimes the obvious answer is all there is.

Warhammer slouching - had been for YEARS!

Release really nice starter set (Dwarf and Goblins)
Two COMPLETE (albiet smallish) armies of high quality.
A true stand-alone product.

Sales continue to tank.

Try again!
Release even NICER Starter set (Elves and Skaven).

Sales continue to tank.
No traction and community drying up.

Realize old players are majority.

Release tons of Really LARGE and NICE and expensive models.
Make BIG SCARY Nuclear Weapons in Warhammer to attract power hungry younger gamers who just want to win.

Sales continue to tank.


Throw in the towel and REBOOT!


Die a slow death, or roll the dice and take it into an entirely NEW direction and just MAYBE save the brand.

Why the hell not?? What is there to lose?

When all the while, what they needed to fix was the rules. What is there to lose? Warhammer fantasy, in any incarnation.

So, just to help me out here, what is the known fluff behind these guys and the "New World" What happened to the previous one, did it literally blow up ?

Sorry if I'm making you repeat yourselves I've missed a good oh 100 pages of this

Wolf

YES! Despite earlier reservations, with the latest pictures I am happy.

I don't have as much of a problem with GW trying to develop a universe that offers more "dark edges of the map," via things like multiple dimensions, rough borders, etc. etc.

What really kills it for me is them trying to take their previous armies and pretend their something different, that they created the ORRUKS and SARAPHON from scratch. This, I feel, is representative of the problems with GW's approach to reinvigorating the game.

That, and the game itself seems to have a number of issues, coupled even worse so with there not being points in this new edition.

I finally agree with GW about switching their name to Warhammer- it makes since because they really don't make any games anymore (no, I don't think 40k is safe either).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolf wrote:
So, just to help me out here, what is the known fluff behind these guys and the "New World" What happened to the previous one, did it literally blow up ?

Sorry if I'm making you repeat yourselves I've missed a good oh 100 pages of this

Wolf

The Old World was LITERALLY blown up by Chaos.

 mikhaila wrote:
6th/7th I think was the highpoint. Sold a lot of it in those years. Frankly, the problems started in 8th, and were not helped by the price rises from GW, and their abandonment of the community.

I remember starting ogres in 6th, and gave up because they just couldn't compete against my friend's tomb kings. Must take a tyrant before you can take a slaughtermaster. Upgrades rediculously expensive for the basic units. MSU required. Gnoblars needed babysitting or else were subject to fear. The game had problems even back then, even if it was selling at a 'highpoint'. Fix the rules ffs.

 Lockark wrote:
so when they list the factions for order.... Is my existing empire army now these "red slayer mercenaries", who no one trusts and are greey mercenaries who fight for gold?

No, as far as I can see, your existing empire army no longer exists.

You're being given rules to keep using those miniatures, but they are not actually a 'real' part of the game, just a bone being thrown to people with existing miniatures collections.

Oh.. I see... That's very um, whats the word? Creative ?

Seriously though that is a terrible way to end the storyline, I would have like to think they could have come up with something better than, "Chaos get mad and blow up the world, Trolololol"

And so far the game rules havent looked all that impressive or interesting, all I want are pretty models hence why I will get the White Dwarf so I can have a good paint up of one !

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck

But one made from two circus trains colliding.

A collosal, terrible, flaming, buring, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spaying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.

How could I look away?

Think that hits it dead on.

I feel sorry for the guys I know who play and enjoy 8th edition. Yes, of course they will still be able to do this, but for those who rely on PUGs and tournaments for play it will become increasingly difficult.

I can't understand why this game (if you can call it that) hasn't just been released alongside the true WHFB.

Is anybody else having flashbacks to Rackham and the debacle of Confrontation when they moved to Confrontation: Age of Ragnarok?

 mikhaila wrote:
6th/7th I think was the highpoint. Sold a lot of it in those years. Frankly, the problems started in 8th, and were not helped by the price rises from GW, and their abandonment of the community.

8th is likely the best edition in terms of gameplay. Other than some stumbles with early books (TK and OnG) and a few uninspired later books (Dwarfs and Lizardmen), all of the 8th edition books are fantastic. The edition was more balanced than any ever was, and the rules led to complex and compelling gameplay.

From a financial perspective though, I can see clearly why it wouldn't work out. Even though the model count bloat that plagued the early edition was tempered dramatically as the meta shifted away from massed infantry, the game simply wasn't functional at the level of play that most beginners would buy in at. Starter boxes came with essentially unusable units, either in terms of size or because they included units that were substantially garbage. For most new players, the advice we gave them was frequently "you need to buy two starter sets, a couple characters, and a couple monsters. That will give you something almost playable." Not really an easy way to get people into the game.

And us veterans? We only spend money when either a) something new comes out for our army, which happens maybe once every 5 years, or b) when we decide to start an entirely new army. But how many times could we be relied upon to do that? Not to mention that, more often than not, people were going over to 3rd party miniatures for the bulk of those models - either because of price or quality (mantic zombies or wargames factory skeletons come to mind...both are cheaper, and better models than the aging GW sculpts. $20 for 30 WGF skeletons, or $30 for 10 GW ones? And it's not as if the GW ones are even objectively better looking models).


I think Age of Sigmar is meant to fix a lot of that, and I think there was a lot of potential there to do so. We will have to wait for the rules to come out on Saturday, but...from what I've seen I'm just really not sure what the hell this game system is meant to do? It doesn't seem like a playable game right now, and unless something is missing I don't know what we're supposed to do with it.

 Torga_DW wrote:

RacerX wrote:
Occams Razor.

Sometimes the obvious answer is all there is.

Warhammer slouching - had been for YEARS!

Release really nice starter set (Dwarf and Goblins)
Two COMPLETE (albiet smallish) armies of high quality.
A true stand-alone product.

Sales continue to tank.

Try again!
Release even NICER Starter set (Elves and Skaven).

Sales continue to tank.
No traction and community drying up.

Realize old players are majority.

Release tons of Really LARGE and NICE and expensive models.
Make BIG SCARY Nuclear Weapons in Warhammer to attract power hungry younger gamers who just want to win.

Sales continue to tank.


Throw in the towel and REBOOT!


Die a slow death, or roll the dice and take it into an entirely NEW direction and just MAYBE save the brand.

Why the hell not?? What is there to lose?

When all the while, what they needed to fix was the rules. What is there to lose? Warhammer fantasy, in any incarnation.

This. Why not leave the old world and just streamline the ruleset, change faction names to pseudo German ones and stay cool?

fething sigmarines I guess.

Maybe they will backpedal from the no going back to old world bs though, actualy if they dont for Total War release then it's a sign that nothing can save them from their own stupidity

 Torga_DW wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
6th/7th I think was the highpoint. Sold a lot of it in those years. Frankly, the problems started in 8th, and were not helped by the price rises from GW, and their abandonment of the community.

I remember starting ogres in 6th, and gave up because they just couldn't compete against my friend's tomb kings. Must take a tyrant before you can take a slaughtermaster. Upgrades rediculously expensive for the basic units. MSU required. Gnoblars needed babysitting or else were subject to fear. The game had problems even back then, even if it was selling at a 'highpoint'. Fix the rules ffs.

And then the next army book fixed all that and suddenly my Ogres i played and lost with were crushing folks. cyclical.

To all this "just change the rules" malarkey. No. From GW's point of view, that never was the problem. GW don't sell to veteran wargamers who care about stuff like that, they sell to kids and impulse buyers and WHFB, with its high start up cost, large units and lack of big spaceships and robots, did not fit the bill. They tried covering the latter point with End Times and that obviously hasn't worked, so they're revamping the game to something that will attract those people: easy to get to grips with rules, skirmish style, low model count (and admittedly really nice models) etc. Fixing the rules may have made veteran gamers happy, but it wasn't going to get Little Timmy to pick up the starter set.

What annoys me is that GW seem to be incapable of ticking both boxes. Perhaps it's too much to ask, but surely GW could've done something different. Why not start a separate skirmish game and leave WHFB alone (even if they had to make most of the range mail order only to save shelf space and/or scrapped unpopular kits). You still get a few sales from WHFB, plus all the ones from the new skirmish game, which would attract people who enjoy playing WHFB as well, rather than putting them off. And again, even with a move such as they're doing now, they could have at least made the rules (or an advanced version of the rules) a little more catered to old WHFB players and/or those who enjoy their wargames for the tactical challenge.

From a business point of view, good rules should not be GW's main concern, but it would be nice if they gave it a little thought, rather than scribbling down four pages of simplistic nonsense overnight.

 mikhaila wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
6th/7th I think was the highpoint. Sold a lot of it in those years. Frankly, the problems started in 8th, and were not helped by the price rises from GW, and their abandonment of the community.

I remember starting ogres in 6th, and gave up because they just couldn't compete against my friend's tomb kings. Must take a tyrant before you can take a slaughtermaster. Upgrades rediculously expensive for the basic units. MSU required. Gnoblars needed babysitting or else were subject to fear. The game had problems even back then, even if it was selling at a 'highpoint'. Fix the rules ffs.

And then the next army book fixed all that and suddenly my Ogres i played and lost with were crushing folks. cyclical.

Cyclical = sucks.
Either way, someone's not having fun. How about both sides have an equal chance?

And, Orruks? Ogors? Aelfs? I mean really... must they stamp a (TM) next to everyting?

 The Shadow wrote:
To all this "just change the rules" malarkey. No. From GW's point of view, that never was the problem. GW don't sell to veteran wargamers who care about stuff like that, they sell to kids and impulse buyers and WHFB, with its high start up cost, large units and lack of big spaceships and robots, did not fit the bill. They tried covering the latter point with End Times and that obviously hasn't worked, so they're revamping the game to something that will attract those people: easy to get to grips with rules, skirmish style, low model count (and admittedly really nice models) etc. Fixing the rules may have made veteran gamers happy, but it wasn't going to get Little Timmy to pick up the starter set.

What annoys me is that GW seem to be incapable of ticking both boxes. Perhaps it's too much to ask, but surely GW could've done something different. Why not start a separate skirmish game and leave WHFB alone (even if they had to make most of the range mail order only to save shelf space and/or scrapped unpopular kits). You still get a few sales from WHFB, plus all the ones from the new skirmish game, which would attract people who enjoy playing WHFB as well, rather than putting them off. And again, even with a move such as they're doing now, they could have at least made the rules (or an advanced version of the rules) a little more catered to old WHFB players and/or those who enjoy their wargames for the tactical challenge.

From a business point of view, good rules should not be GW's main concern, but it would be nice if they gave it a little thought, rather than scribbling down four pages of simplistic nonsense overnight.

For some reason GW of the last 10-15 years just has no idea how to properly market and sell their product they are a company full of halflings standing on the shoulders of ogres and never fully grasped that while the veterans might not buy as much as new players the only reason new players had a community to play with was because of the veterans. they are essential to building a community of players and showing new people the ropes. and it was such a huge asset for them that they were never able to use effectively, I mean just look at how many other games are out there struggling to gain a foothold in a very niche market where GW had dominance for years because it was the game with the largest community, it was always easy to go into a FLGS on any given weekend and find a game of warhammer, and that is why most people were able to justify spending countless hours and small fortunes on miniatures i know i was going to be able to use them. thats all gone now, at least in regards to WHFB or AoS.