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2015/07/02 21:15:19
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
The "wait and see" argument is pretty much hoping for a best case scenario of more rules and some sort of points balancing or other army creation system, which would stand as proof that GW are a company of lying liars who lie to their trade sales customers?
Either way, I don't think this is a company I want to do business with.
2015/07/02 21:15:21
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
XT-1984 wrote: Well at least the Lizardmen weren't squatted like everyone knew they would be.
Thank goodness.
I'm still gonna call my Ogres, Ogres....forget this Ogor nonsense.
I went into a GW store a couple of months back while on a trip and referred to the Imperial Guard during a conversation, and the staffer interjected(in a serious way, like he was correcting a mistake, not as a joke) with "You mean Astra Militarum" - I swear he visibly wilted under the look of utter disdain that came over my face
They can call things Deathrattlers and Orruks and Departmento Awfulpseudolatinicus all they like, I will not indulge them.
Do you still call grots, gretchin? And wraithlords "Eldar Dreadnoughts"? Or should that be Space Elves Dreadnoughts?!
In the first case; sometimes I do, as a matter of fact. In the latter case, no, because I never had much experience playing against/reading about Eldar until 3rd Edition, but even if I had, I'm capable of holding nuanced opinions of things that account for intent, and can so justifiably be disdainful of a change made by a company on the basis of naked greed and legal incompetence, and have no particular animosity towards another change made to differentiate one faction from another. I know that a lot of folk around here believe you can only express dislike of something GW has done if you are a twisted, shrivelled, bitter old grognard that despises everything that company has ever done, is doing, and ever will do, but a fair few of us manage to praise the bits we like and criticise the bits we don't without suffering a cranial implosion.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2015/07/02 21:16:08
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
AncientSkarbrand wrote: seriously you guys...
seriously.
just wait.
its very hard for me to understand why everyone is running around losing their minds right now. you dont even know what games workshop is doing. alot of the rumours have been really quite wrong up to this point. what makes all of your assumptions so ironclad and impenetrable? you just know youre right cause they ruined warhammer and theyre a terrible company and blah blah blah.
quite frankly, this thread is absolutely the worst case of impatient anxiety ive ever seen in my life. you guys will actually know something soon. know. knowledge. quite a different beast than assumptions are. so whats the point in chopping your own john thomas' off about warhammer being turned into the worst thing ever when you have no verified idea.
this all seems like unwarranted whining. its like you all hate games workshop so much that you wanted to create a multi hundred page thread of why people should never give gw a cent. and if thats your prerogative, dont give them a cent. but i feel youre all damaging the experiences others could have, and contributing to a society of endless negativity that is constantly displayed here on dakka.
the strangest thing for me is that nothing has actually changed. dont like age of sigmar?okay. youre in the same place you were before it existed. so... lets spread metric gaktons of hate on an internet forum about it so it can get lost in the sea of millions of peoples opinions that nobody cares about weeks after theyre posted. furthermore, in a few weeks, if a mass battle, balanced system is actually coming out, what will you all do? stick to your guns and find a new reason to hate everything? or change your tune and sing the praise of gw all of a sudden, going back on all of the extreme comments that youve made. because if the latter is the case... why not just wait and see this whole time instead of possibly pushing new gamers away when they see all the community has for this game is hatred before its even born? if its the former, who cares that you hate it so much no matter what it is? why would any of your opinions have any weight? it would just be hatred for hates sake. pretty soon this thread will create a new chaos god all about impatience, anxiety, and hate.
who knows, maybe its gonna suck real bad. but seriously, cant we all just WAIT? isnt 200 pages of "**** this is the worst thing ever im gpnna sell my miniatures and burn down gw and start a riot in my hometown and kick a dog and verbally maim anyone who thinks about getting into gw" enough? arent you all bored to death yet?
i dunno. i just like to see flames, feel the heat before i tell everyone my house is burning down and evacuate my family.
We've seen the rules, we've seen some Warscrolls, we've seen bits from the WD. What else are we waiting for now? It's not like people are freaking out over rumours.
2015/07/02 21:17:31
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
The "wait and see" argument is pretty much hoping for a best case scenario of more rules and some sort of points balancing or other army creation system, which would stand as proof that GW are a company of lying liars who lie to their trade sales customers?
Either way, I don't think this is a company I want to do business with.
Yeah, I mean I want there to be a big rulebook coming, but that would mean they were lying to retailers which is pretty reprehensible as well, it's pretty lose lose now.
2015/07/02 21:18:12
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Considering they told LGS to make up balancing house rules themselves I'm not encouraged by the game having any sort of points / scroll balancing mechanism
The "wait and see" argument is pretty much hoping for a best case scenario of more rules and some sort of points balancing or other army creation system, which would stand as proof that GW are a company of lying liars who lie to their trade sales customers?
Either way, I don't think this is a company I want to do business with.
Yeah, I mean I want there to be a big rulebook coming, but that would mean they were lying to retailers which is pretty reprehensible as well, it's pretty lose lose now.
There's not sorry
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/02 21:18:40
2015/07/02 21:19:03
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
AncientSkarbrand wrote: seriously you guys...
seriously.
just wait.
its very hard for me to understand why everyone is running around losing their minds right now. you dont even know what games workshop is doing. alot of the rumours have been really quite wrong up to this point. what makes all of your assumptions so ironclad and impenetrable? you just know youre right cause they ruined warhammer and theyre a terrible company and blah blah blah.
quite frankly, this thread is absolutely the worst case of impatient anxiety ive ever seen in my life. you guys will actually know something soon. know. knowledge. quite a different beast than assumptions are. so whats the point in chopping your own john thomas' off about warhammer being turned into the worst thing ever when you have no verified idea.
this all seems like unwarranted whining. its like you all hate games workshop so much that you wanted to create a multi hundred page thread of why people should never give gw a cent. and if thats your prerogative, dont give them a cent. but i feel youre all damaging the experiences others could have, and contributing to a society of endless negativity that is constantly displayed here on dakka.
the strangest thing for me is that nothing has actually changed. dont like age of sigmar?okay. youre in the same place you were before it existed. so... lets spread metric gaktons of hate on an internet forum about it so it can get lost in the sea of millions of peoples opinions that nobody cares about weeks after theyre posted. furthermore, in a few weeks, if a mass battle, balanced system is actually coming out, what will you all do? stick to your guns and find a new reason to hate everything? or change your tune and sing the praise of gw all of a sudden, going back on all of the extreme comments that youve made. because if the latter is the case... why not just wait and see this whole time instead of possibly pushing new gamers away when they see all the community has for this game is hatred before its even born? if its the former, who cares that you hate it so much no matter what it is? why would any of your opinions have any weight? it would just be hatred for hates sake. pretty soon this thread will create a new chaos god all about impatience, anxiety, and hate.
who knows, maybe its gonna suck real bad. but seriously, cant we all just WAIT? isnt 200 pages of "**** this is the worst thing ever im gpnna sell my miniatures and burn down gw and start a riot in my hometown and kick a dog and verbally maim anyone who thinks about getting into gw" enough? arent you all bored to death yet?
i dunno. i just like to see flames, feel the heat before i tell everyone my house is burning down and evacuate my family.
You're my hero. Exalted.
2015/07/02 21:20:41
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
This clearly isnt the only "Age of Sigmar" item GW is releasing. theres plenty of time in the future for more releases. the wd even says "books we release in the future." it could be anything. instead everyone ignores that its just a starter set and thinks the absolute worst about everything.
Mainly it's just sad to me to think that someone might come here expecting to see information about the game they can digest on their own and instead seeing thousands of hateful, butthurt posts. when i first got into the hobby it was so amazing to me and i spent no time on internet forums. Wouldnt it suck if someone was denied that new fresh joy because of pages and pages of gak-talk?
7500 pts Chaos Daemons
2015/07/02 21:21:05
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
edlowe wrote: Is it wrong to think the faq for this game will be longer that 4 pages?
Reading the rules am I mistaken that as they currently stand your models cant move their full distance and remain the same facing?
For example moving a chariot base and rotating it sideways at the end of its move makes the rear of the model move more than its move distance, which is against the rules. To move your full allowance in one direction and not break the rules a figure cannot be rotated.
am I reading this wrong?
Will need to go through the motions IRL to confirm but,
Hold your tape measure from any point above the model. Extend the tape measure to see how far it can move. Pick up the model (and rotate it as much as you want) as long as no point goes beyond the maximum movement from where you first measured when placed.
ok, so I have a high elf dragon. I measure forward from its head say 10 inches. I move the dragon straight forward 10 inches. I then swing the model round 90 degrees using the head as the pivot. The dragons tail has now moved further than 10 inches. pythagoras theorem. Shouldn't there be some system for being able to rotate a unit during its move especially since every model is now irregularly shaped due to the fact that bases don't count? Something as simple as measure from the centre of the model and you may rotate you model as many times as you like during your movement around this point. Although finding the centre of a model would work best if bases counted.
Just really pointing out how lightweight the rules are. Kow deals with this simply by allowing what I said above and it only would take a line of text to fix.
http://thelaughterofthedamned.blogspot.co.uk/
2015/07/02 21:21:17
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
migooo wrote: Considering they told LGS to make up balancing house rules themselves I'm not encouraged by the game having any sort of points / scroll balancing mechanism
The "wait and see" argument is pretty much hoping for a best case scenario of more rules and some sort of points balancing or other army creation system, which would stand as proof that GW are a company of lying liars who lie to their trade sales customers?
Either way, I don't think this is a company I want to do business with.
Yeah, I mean I want there to be a big rulebook coming, but that would mean they were lying to retailers which is pretty reprehensible as well, it's pretty lose lose now.
There's not sorry
No I no there isn't. Which sucks, but I guess at least they were honest then..?
2015/07/02 21:22:48
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
If anything, one model = one model means that list building is more important than ever. Especially because list building is done on the fly during deployment. Horde armies are basically dead in that a "horde army" used to be lots of little dudes. Whether you go by Models or Warscrolls or anything, as long as one model is considered equal to any other one model, only the strongest models will see the table. Because there is literally no reason other than "I want to handicap myself" to do so.
Er, no. If the scenario specifies exactly which models to bring to the battle, there will be no list building. Your line of reasoning assumes that the scenarios will allow for flexibility in this regard. My point is that it doesn't have to be so. you may not like that idea. but that doesn't mean it's not possible.
2015/07/02 21:25:48
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
If anything, one model = one model means that list building is more important than ever. Especially because list building is done on the fly during deployment. Horde armies are basically dead in that a "horde army" used to be lots of little dudes. Whether you go by Models or Warscrolls or anything, as long as one model is considered equal to any other one model, only the strongest models will see the table. Because there is literally no reason other than "I want to handicap myself" to do so.
Er, no. If the scenario specifies exactly which models to bring to the battle, there will be no list building. Your line of reasoning assumes that the scenarios will allow for flexibility in this regard. My point is that it doesn't have to be so. you may not like that idea. but that doesn't mean it's not possible.
Ah, I misunderstood what you were saying then.
Still, it's pretty sad that the only way forward for anything but "make stuff up" play would be "play one of the six given scenarios with the given forces". I mean, that frankly sounds like the worst tournament scene ever! I play skaven, and while I'm aware that Warscrolls for the units are coming, without some way to balance them I have literally 0 guidelines (not even the 6 scenarios) to help me play a balanced game against my friend's dwarves. If Warhammer will literally come down to "make crap up or play Khorne vs Lightning Marines", well, it's been a fun ride at least.
2015/07/02 21:28:42
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
XT-1984 wrote: Well at least the Lizardmen weren't squatted like everyone knew they would be.
Thank goodness.
I'm still gonna call my Ogres, Ogres....forget this Ogor nonsense.
You can hold out but you'll eventually be in a minority. I still call my cadians Imperial Guard but newer players call them Astra Militarum and so do most of the battle reports (who, if ever, only mention IG name as a side note during the army showcase)
Just GW covering their bases. I've never had an issue with them changing the names of stuff so other companies can't capitalize on GW's success.
Yes. Now when those green guys are called orruks instead of orcs it will be impossible for all thise 3rd party bits manufacturers to sell their orc stuff.
The "wait and see" argument is pretty much hoping for a best case scenario of more rules and some sort of points balancing or other army creation system, which would stand as proof that GW are a company of lying liars who lie to their trade sales customers?
Either way, I don't think this is a company I want to do business with.
Its a better argument than the "lets rage on about the bits of information we have now rather than wait for the finished product".
Besides, the GW reps are salesmen. And at this exact moment in time perhaps they are right, there are no points or scenarios in AoS. But maybe in a months time we will get a hard back rulebook.
We just don't know for certain yet, anyone claiming otherwise is either misinformed or worse.
2015/07/02 21:30:38
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
If anything, one model = one model means that list building is more important than ever. Especially because list building is done on the fly during deployment. Horde armies are basically dead in that a "horde army" used to be lots of little dudes. Whether you go by Models or Warscrolls or anything, as long as one model is considered equal to any other one model, only the strongest models will see the table. Because there is literally no reason other than "I want to handicap myself" to do so.
Er, no. If the scenario specifies exactly which models to bring to the battle, there will be no list building. Your line of reasoning assumes that the scenarios will allow for flexibility in this regard. My point is that it doesn't have to be so. you may not like that idea. but that doesn't mean it's not possible.
Ah, I misunderstood what you were saying then.
Still, it's pretty sad that the only way forward for anything but "make stuff up" play would be "play one of the six given scenarios with the given forces". I mean, that frankly sounds like the worst tournament scene ever! I play skaven, and while I'm aware that Warscrolls for the units are coming, without some way to balance them I have literally 0 guidelines (not even the 6 scenarios) to help me play a balanced game against my friend's dwarves. If Warhammer will literally come down to "make crap up or play Khorne vs Lightning Marines", well, it's been a fun ride at least.
Well, I'm speculating of course, but if it's to be a really simple game in order to make it easier to sell to a new audience, simplicity may be key, rather than tournament feasibility. Add to that a "lock in" effect and you've got a business model.
And I'm not sure I'll totally dislike this.
2015/07/02 21:31:07
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
pinkmarine wrote: (There is this game called "chess", kinda popular. No lists.)
The exception being in chess you're both on a relatively even playing field. Meanwhile in the Age Of Sigmar one guy says "Here's my hundreds of orks, how many ten guys did you bring?" And that's RAW.
2015/07/02 21:32:56
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
AncientSkarbrand wrote: This clearly isnt the only "Age of Sigmar" item GW is releasing. theres plenty of time in the future for more releases. the wd even says "books we release in the future." it could be anything. instead everyone ignores that its just a starter set and thinks the absolute worst about everything.
People aren't ignoring that it's a starter set.
They're taking the word from GW reps, and the people in charge of the GW reps, that the four pages of rules are all the rules that the game has, and that there are no points values and no plans to add them in, and they're reading the rules which have been floating around online for the last couple of days.
This isn't people jumping at rumours. This is people looking at a product and finding it wanting.
If there is something else coming out that makes this mess into something that is actually playable, then GW's choice to lead with what they have and not provide clearer information about it right from the start is a very, very bad one. Because people will make judgements based on what they see.
Mainly it's just sad to me to think that someone might come here expecting to see information about the game they can digest on their own and instead seeing thousands of hateful, butthurt posts.
You seem to be having trouble differentiating between criticism and hateful ranting.
For the most part, there has been very little 'butthurt' in this thread. Just a bunch of people posting their opinions (and it certainly hasn't all been negative) about this product.
And frankly, if a game is as bad as this one appears to be, then if I were a prospective new gamer I would absolutely want to know about that before I walked into a GW store and bought it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/02 21:36:32
2015/07/02 21:35:25
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
pinkmarine wrote: (There is this game called "chess", kinda popular. No lists.)
The exception being in chess you're both on a relatively even playing field. Meanwhile in the Age Of Sigmar one guy says "Here's my hundreds of orks, how many ten guys did you bring?" And that's RAW.
My point is that you can even out the field by specifying the exact models in the scenario. Zero flexibility, high simplicity for the newbie.
The chess comment was a joke. Sorry if it offended.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/02 21:36:20
2015/07/02 21:39:37
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
AncientSkarbrand wrote: seriously you guys...
seriously.
just wait.
its very hard for me to understand why everyone is running around losing their minds right now. you dont even know what games workshop is doing. alot of the rumours have been really quite wrong up to this point. what makes all of your assumptions so ironclad and impenetrable? you just know youre right cause they ruined warhammer and theyre a terrible company and blah blah blah.
quite frankly, this thread is absolutely the worst case of impatient anxiety ive ever seen in my life. you guys will actually know something soon. know. knowledge. quite a different beast than assumptions are. so whats the point in chopping your own john thomas' off about warhammer being turned into the worst thing ever when you have no verified idea.
this all seems like unwarranted whining. its like you all hate games workshop so much that you wanted to create a multi hundred page thread of why people should never give gw a cent. and if thats your prerogative, dont give them a cent. but i feel youre all damaging the experiences others could have, and contributing to a society of endless negativity that is constantly displayed here on dakka.
the strangest thing for me is that nothing has actually changed. dont like age of sigmar?okay. youre in the same place you were before it existed. so... lets spread metric gaktons of hate on an internet forum about it so it can get lost in the sea of millions of peoples opinions that nobody cares about weeks after theyre posted. furthermore, in a few weeks, if a mass battle, balanced system is actually coming out, what will you all do? stick to your guns and find a new reason to hate everything? or change your tune and sing the praise of gw all of a sudden, going back on all of the extreme comments that youve made. because if the latter is the case... why not just wait and see this whole time instead of possibly pushing new gamers away when they see all the community has for this game is hatred before its even born? if its the former, who cares that you hate it so much no matter what it is? why would any of your opinions have any weight? it would just be hatred for hates sake. pretty soon this thread will create a new chaos god all about impatience, anxiety, and hate.
who knows, maybe its gonna suck real bad. but seriously, cant we all just WAIT? isnt 200 pages of "**** this is the worst thing ever im gpnna sell my miniatures and burn down gw and start a riot in my hometown and kick a dog and verbally maim anyone who thinks about getting into gw" enough? arent you all bored to death yet?
i dunno. i just like to see flames, feel the heat before i tell everyone my house is burning down and evacuate my family.
I'm using an analogy here. Suppose GW was a car company, and suppose they were releasing a new car on 4th of July. Very reliable sources and evidence have shown that GW's new car will not have an engine...or a gearbox with it.
Nobody has driven this car yet, but we have driven other cars, and we know, without ever driving GW's car, that it won't work without an engine or a gearbox.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2015/07/02 21:40:31
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Albino Squirrel wrote: I still think, even with balanced armies, the rules don't sound fun. There are already several things that can stack on top of each other to affect your damage output (formation/battalion bonus, leader ability bonus, terrain bonus, winning previous game bonus?). It sounds rather annoying to keep track of all that, and for outcomes to be more about those things than about the actual strengths/weaknesses of the units engaged.
But maybe other warscrolls will add more interesting elements. Or just make way more stuff to keep track of.
Do you play 40k? With the newest Codices? There are special rules for each unit, plus the formation, plus the detachment, in addition to any character / weapon upgrades taken. It's starting to get out of hand.
I understand wanting to know if something sucks before you buy it. I also understand people often "decide" something sucks or is awesome without knowing anything about it, and that it can massively influence whether something has any support or not. Especially with the internet. What is popular is often picked up by others. behaviour, opinion, what-have-you.
In that sense, i understand people coming here and giving a negative opinion entirely. i get it and condone it but there comes a point where it is completely over the top and just reeks of silliness.
where i live, alot of people buy the make of truck their father's drove. their dad's tell them its great Nd the best truck maker, so thats what they buy. they form an opinion that they hate other trucks before they even drive them, or even think about them. they hate the manufacturers and think their trucks are garbage and are vocal about it to everyone, and imagine how many trucks those people buy with very incomplete knowledge of anything about the truck or if competitors are better? my point is, people's opinions can damage the enjoyment and utility of things in the lives of others. close-mindedness is a terrible attribute to have. right now the question of whether this game sucks or not is answered only with "who knows? it might. we'll see in the next few weeks." Yet people claim unerring knowledge of its suck factor. where does this knowledge come from? prescience? simple answer is its all BS, nobody knows.
Just seems like loads of people on this site passive/aggressively hate their own hobbies and dont want anyone else to enjoy it.
7500 pts Chaos Daemons
2015/07/02 21:54:53
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
I'm curious as to where the "wait and see" crowd (all, what, three of them?) will concede it's as bad as it appears?
C'mon boys, where the line eh? I mean, it'll be self evident when the opposite view is invalidated because they'll be a points based/alternative balancing system to point to.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This keeps popping into my head recently, can't think why...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/02 22:00:36
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
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