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 TBD wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
I can't believe how po-faced people are being about the silly rules! Just ignore them! Everybody will after the first game or two anyway when the novelty wears off.

That's just it, though... If those rules are going to be ignored in the majority of games, then there's really no point in them being there in the first place.
Unless, of course, you're only expecting your customers to play the game a couple of times before moving on to something else...

I see what you're trying to do there but the comedy rules are in the legacy warscrolls, the new units don't have them. Yes, the expectation is that the legacy stuff will be superceded by new rules that better represent the factions of the new fluff in time, or else gradually phased out, so yes - it's not an issue that people will stop doing the silly voices etc before long.

So they just released these new rules not even one day ago and already the faith of many a WHF player's enjoyment of the game rests on the expectation that another set of replacement rules may or may not be provided to us at some point in the future...

No, you misunderstand, I think this is it for rules for the existing line but doubtless more stuff will be added to the game in the future and the old stuff will be phased out. How you got "you're expecting another set of replacement rules" from that I have no idea.

 Fezza213 wrote:

Thats the thing though, people weren't investing enough into the game and so GW owe you nothing, sure you may have invested a lot over the last however long you played but recent times very few people were, not enough to sustain a viable product (business 101). So one way or another WHFB was dead, no allegiance owed, people didn't buy enough to sustain it. So rather then ditch it altogether they instead used its nurgle ridden carcass to create something new, whether you like the new stuff or not is a personal choice. Whether this "new" thing is going to sell or not is yet to be seen. I, like many here, believe they need some way of building lists, do that and I think it will do ok especially if they continue to release fantastic models like the end times and AoS box. If they dont do that then I think it will founder.

Personally I am going to wait and see, from what i have seen of the new lore I am loving it but that will depend on how fleshed out they go with it, it will fail if they rely on models alone. The biggest thing for me is the list building, I am not worried about balance, you CANT balance a game with this many factions and still have it fun (40k is the most unbalanced game on the tabletop but its still fun) just give me a way to build armies out of new stuff and old and I will be happy.

It might just be very possible that people did not invest in the game because GW did not provide us with a good enough rule set.

This has been clearly voiced by a great many folks for a great many years, but certain people in Nottingham never appeared to be interested in listening.

A good game sells itself.

 kendoka wrote:
I like the simplicity of "the Avian Way" of specifying maximum Unit Size*,

(ToHit x ToWound)/Wounds=Unit Size

i.e.
DE Bleakswords would be (3x4)/1 = max 12 models/warscroll.
DE Darkshards would be (5x4)/1 = max 20 models/warscroll.
DE Dark Riders would be (5x4)/2 = max 10 models/warscroll.
Would make an excellent starting point.

However, as Save is as important as Wounds in order to survive, Save should be part of the equation.
And special rules aswell (rend, mortal wounds, darkshields, etc.), 9 Executioners are way better than 12 Bleakswords.

*Unit size is also more suited to AoS and the Warscrolls than a points value/model.

This is nifty thinking.

If we now have a "living rulebook" and warscrolls is there any chance of GW adding points/ a balance element if there is a big enough outcry about it?

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
If we now have a "living rulebook" and warscrolls is there any chance of GW adding points/ a balance element if there is a big enough outcry about it?

No, because there is nobody to hear that outcry.

Is it me or their is no indication that you can only take a special character once ?

So, I guess an army of Nagash is a thing now. So thematic.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
If we now have a "living rulebook" and warscrolls is there any chance of GW adding points/ a balance element if there is a big enough outcry about it?

No, because there is nobody to hear that outcry.

That was my first thought. I guess that red shirts could pass it "upwards" but those ivory towers are difficult to scale.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
If we now have a "living rulebook" and warscrolls is there any chance of GW adding points/ a balance element if there is a big enough outcry about it?

It's certainly possible but I'm not holding out much hope they'll bother balancing the old range in its entirety, more likely they'll do rules for the new factions - order, chaos, death, destruction, nature, whatever - that have some internal balancing structure themselves. Either that, or it'll all be done via campaign books with prescribed lists of units for each side.

 TBD wrote:
It might just be very possible that people did not invest in the game because GW did not provide us with a good enough rule set.

This has been clearly voiced by a great many folks for a great many years, but certain people in Nottingham never appeared to be interested in listening.

A good game sells itself.

I agree with you that a good game sells itself, though there could be other reasons for decline too, like model count requirement being daunting. However, you can't have it both ways:

Either the old version was good and people are sad to see it go, or the old version was bad, so people weren't buying it. The argument is... it was good enough to play, but not good enough to buy more of, or attract new players? Or something like that. Either way, even with a perfect ruleset, I think 40k and WHFB competed with each other for the same players; now, Sigmar and 40k appeal to different potential players.

The other thing is that what people look for changes over time, so a good game that attracts a lot of people in 1990 might still be a good game in 2015, but attract a lot less people.

Incidentally, I like high model count games, but I don't like the ranked-up movement tray part, because it feels like I'm making a zillion of the same model. One of the reasons I like Space Marines and Eldar (and various Eldar-related factions) is that, following the fluff, *every* model is a hero, so it stands to reason that each one would be unique-ish. So you have an army of heroes (or villains), which appeals to me in some strange way


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
If we now have a "living rulebook" and warscrolls is there any chance of GW adding points/ a balance element if there is a big enough outcry about it?

No, because there is nobody to hear that outcry.

That was my first thought. I guess that red shirts could pass it "upwards" but those ivory towers are difficult to scale.

GW has proven itself a very stubborn company that does and sells what it wants, so I think such outcry is futile


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

That's just it, though... If those rules are going to be ignored in the majority of games, then there's really no point in them being there in the first place.

Unless, of course, you're only expecting your customers to play the game a couple of times before moving on to something else...

I am buying the box and painting the minis, expecting to move on to something else after playing it a couple of times

 Talys wrote:

Either the old version was good and people are sad to see it go, or the old version was bad, so people weren't buying it.

...Or the old version was once good, had become bad, and people would have much rather seen it made good again instead of being scrapped and replaced with something worse ..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:

I am buying the box and painting the minis, expecting to move on to something else after playing it a couple of times

And if that works for you , that's great . For me , by the time I've bought the game and assembled minis for it, I expect to get a decent amount of play out of it . . And that means more than a couple of games.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
The good ship KOW ? Is that sailing from Liverpool ?

Personally I do not like the KOW ruleset and find it is basically old fantasy lite edition, to the point where you may as well move rectangles of cardboard around , it has the most droll background for some time and is made by a company whose sole business plan seems to consist of trolling the competition and running endless Kickstarters to a diminishing amount of backers.

Totally agree.

I hear a lot of folk saying a good game sells models. 40K sells and the rules for 40k are awful, worst they have been for years. Does this help AoS likely not but many people will try the game before giving it up completely. I only did sci fi but even I grabbed a copy of this though I got mine for £52 which made it a decent buy for the models alone

Motograter wrote:
I hear a lot of folk saying a good game sells models. 40K sells and the rules for 40k are awful, worst they have been for years.

...and unit sales have been decreasing...

Motograter wrote:
I hear a lot of folk saying a good game sells models. 40K sells and the rules for 40k are awful, worst they have been for years. Does this help AoS likely not but many people will try the game before giving it up completely. I only did sci fi but even I grabbed a copy of this though I got mine for £52 which made it a decent buy for the models alone

And sales are tanking. See the problem?

 Bull0 wrote:

 TBD wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
I can't believe how po-faced people are being about the silly rules! Just ignore them! Everybody will after the first game or two anyway when the novelty wears off.

That's just it, though... If those rules are going to be ignored in the majority of games, then there's really no point in them being there in the first place.
Unless, of course, you're only expecting your customers to play the game a couple of times before moving on to something else...

I see what you're trying to do there but the comedy rules are in the legacy warscrolls, the new units don't have them. Yes, the expectation is that the legacy stuff will be superceded by new rules that better represent the factions of the new fluff in time, or else gradually phased out, so yes - it's not an issue that people will stop doing the silly voices etc before long.

So they just released these new rules not even one day ago and already the faith of many a WHF player's enjoyment of the game rests on the expectation that another set of replacement rules may or may not be provided to us at some point in the future...

No, you misunderstand, I think this is it for rules for the existing line but doubtless more stuff will be added to the game in the future and the old stuff will be phased out. How you got "you're expecting another set of replacement rules" from that I have no idea.

The part I bolded, you wrote that right?

You quite clearly say:

the expectation is that the legacy stuff will be superceded by new rules... or else gradually phased out

The legacy stuff (which we just got new rules for) will be superceded... superceding something = replacing it... aka the rules we just got for the legacy stuff will be replaced by new rules = another set of replacement rules.

So what exactly am I misunderstanding?

Motograter wrote:
I hear a lot of folk saying a good game sells models. 40K sells and the rules for 40k are awful, worst they have been for years. Does this help AoS likely not but many people will try the game before giving it up completely. I only did sci fi but even I grabbed a copy of this though I got mine for £52 which made it a decent buy for the models alone

7th ed 40k is a improvement on 6th, and I'm having massive amounts of fun both in casual and tournament games (as is my gaming group). I played in a tournament recently with the new Eldar book and had the most fun I've ever had with the game, and my opponents loved it as well. So I'd say 40k is in excellent shape right now.

Motograter wrote:
I hear a lot of folk saying a good game sells models. 40K sells and the rules for 40k are awful, worst they have been for years. Does this help AoS likely not but many people will try the game before giving it up completely. I only did sci fi but even I grabbed a copy of this though I got mine for £52 which made it a decent buy for the models alone

A good game sells models, but it isn't the only way to sell models. GW still sells 40k models because they're nice models with good fluff behind them, but they'd probably sell a lot more 40k models if the rules weren't so terrible. And expect the same to be true with AoS, but to an even greater extreme: they will sell some models because people want the models for non-AoS purposes, but they will probably sell hardly any models because of the game.

Mymearan wrote:

Motograter wrote:
I hear a lot of folk saying a good game sells models. 40K sells and the rules for 40k are awful, worst they have been for years. Does this help AoS likely not but many people will try the game before giving it up completely. I only did sci fi but even I grabbed a copy of this though I got mine for £52 which made it a decent buy for the models alone

7th ed 40k is a improvement on 6th, and I'm having massive amounts of fun both in casual and tournament games (as is my gaming group). I played in a tournament recently with the new Eldar book and had the most fun I've ever had with the game, and my opponents loved it as well. So I'd say 40k is in excellent shape right now.

Pretty anecdotal though, when their sales are falling quite a lot.

Any more leaks or are we still continuing the doom and gloom here? lol

The guy who thinks he's in one of the Lantern Corps looks interesting but I'm not going to buy it simply because I don't want to support the game. The rules on some of those Warscrolls are stupid. Apart from the archers he's the only non Hammer guy I've seen.

The Griffin chick / cub looks really cool but I have made my choice in this.

Ill throw my opinion on tanking sales I had RT, then 3rd, I ignored 4-5th and I was lead to believe 6th was basically second ed 2.0 it wasn't. I'm Second ed 40k now only and its hard but with some tweaks I've even played tau with it. The rules I use are out there.


Now out of 20 people who were in the same club who played Warhammer and 40k, 3 play 40k still only 2 play the current edition ( I'm not talking about my second ed games I'm talking about people who started around the same time I did) and only I played fantasy

Most stopped playing mini games altogether most say it was due to price but some due to the constant
Tweaking of minis for each edition.

40k will probably be Sigmarized next edition as they tend to use Fantasy as a testing ground for this sort of thing.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Mymearan wrote:

Motograter wrote:
I hear a lot of folk saying a good game sells models. 40K sells and the rules for 40k are awful, worst they have been for years. Does this help AoS likely not but many people will try the game before giving it up completely. I only did sci fi but even I grabbed a copy of this though I got mine for £52 which made it a decent buy for the models alone

7th ed 40k is a improvement on 6th, and I'm having massive amounts of fun both in casual and tournament games (as is my gaming group). I played in a tournament recently with the new Eldar book and had the most fun I've ever had with the game, and my opponents loved it as well. So I'd say 40k is in excellent shape right now.

Pretty anecdotal though, when their sales are falling quite a lot.

Yeah, to counter that with something equally anecdotal my club's attendance has fallen and 40K play is grinding to a halt.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Mymearan wrote:

Motograter wrote:
I hear a lot of folk saying a good game sells models. 40K sells and the rules for 40k are awful, worst they have been for years. Does this help AoS likely not but many people will try the game before giving it up completely. I only did sci fi but even I grabbed a copy of this though I got mine for £52 which made it a decent buy for the models alone

7th ed 40k is a improvement on 6th, and I'm having massive amounts of fun both in casual and tournament games (as is my gaming group). I played in a tournament recently with the new Eldar book and had the most fun I've ever had with the game, and my opponents loved it as well. So I'd say 40k is in excellent shape right now.

Pretty anecdotal though, when their sales are falling quite a lot.

Inferring a trend from anecdotal evidence is little more than confirmation bias.

migooo wrote:
The guy who thinks he's in one of the Lantern Corps looks interesting but I'm not going to buy it simply because I don't want to support the game. The rules on some of those Warscrolls are stupid. Apart from the archers he's the only non Hammer guy I've seen.

The Griffin chick / cub looks really cool but I have made my choice in this.

The ones with swords and halberds look quite interesting from what you can see of them

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Any more leaks or are we still continuing the doom and gloom here? lol

Atia has some pics of stormhost eternal archers and what looks like stormhost troops wielding halberds and swords instead of hammers. There is also a pic she has of Khorne cavalry. No idea if this is stuff coming from next week or not, i would assume next week would be individual releases to compliment the AoS box set.

https://twitter.com/Lady_Atia

 ImAGeek wrote:

Mymearan wrote:

Motograter wrote:
I hear a lot of folk saying a good game sells models. 40K sells and the rules for 40k are awful, worst they have been for years. Does this help AoS likely not but many people will try the game before giving it up completely. I only did sci fi but even I grabbed a copy of this though I got mine for £52 which made it a decent buy for the models alone

7th ed 40k is a improvement on 6th, and I'm having massive amounts of fun both in casual and tournament games (as is my gaming group). I played in a tournament recently with the new Eldar book and had the most fun I've ever had with the game, and my opponents loved it as well. So I'd say 40k is in excellent shape right now.

Pretty anecdotal though, when their sales are falling quite a lot.

The post I quoted wasn't talking about sales falling, it was talking about how bad the rules are, which I don't agree with and I explained why. I wasn't referring to GWs financial situation but my own opinion on the state of the game.

Anyway, very sorry for the OT, back to AoS!

Mymearan wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Mymearan wrote:

Motograter wrote:
I hear a lot of folk saying a good game sells models. 40K sells and the rules for 40k are awful, worst they have been for years. Does this help AoS likely not but many people will try the game before giving it up completely. I only did sci fi but even I grabbed a copy of this though I got mine for £52 which made it a decent buy for the models alone

7th ed 40k is a improvement on 6th, and I'm having massive amounts of fun both in casual and tournament games (as is my gaming group). I played in a tournament recently with the new Eldar book and had the most fun I've ever had with the game, and my opponents loved it as well. So I'd say 40k is in excellent shape right now.

Pretty anecdotal though, when their sales are falling quite a lot.

The post I quoted wasn't talking about sales falling, it was talking about how bad the rules are, which I don't agree with and I explained why. I wasn't referring to GWs financial situation but my own opinion on the state of the game.

Anyway, very sorry for the OT, back to AoS!

He's saying that your enjoyment of the game is a shrinking situation, judging by the shrinking sales of GW games. You may enjoy it, but more and more people are not. (Evidenced by financial statements and not anecdotal experience.)

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:

Next up for KOW are these:

Spoiler:

Will they win over GW exiles?

And again more unit fillers means less miniatures sold and less moey in the Mantic coffers.

OOoooooooo!!!

I was already planning to get Mantic Gargoyles to use as Slaaneshi Furies, as Dark Elf Harpies are way too expensive, and I'd be much happier with those Succubi as Daemonettes than the current palstic models!

I was thinking of getting Beastmen if Warhammer 9th had been enticing. If Mantic start making something that works as that sort of unit, they'll have found a solid new customer in me.

 Talys wrote:
now, Sigmar and 40k appeal to different potential players.

Do you honestly think it is a coincidence that the Sigmarites basically are Space Marines without literally being Space Marines?

GW logic: "Space Marines sell, so let's put Space Marines in Fantasy without them actually being Space Marines... and Fantasy will also sell!"

I happen to think GW is hoping AoS will appeal to exactly the same people who are appealed to Space Marines

We will of course see where this goes though.

Motograter wrote:

migooo wrote:
The guy who thinks he's in one of the Lantern Corps looks interesting but I'm not going to buy it simply because I don't want to support the game. The rules on some of those Warscrolls are stupid. Apart from the archers he's the only non Hammer guy I've seen.

The Griffin chick / cub looks really cool but I have made my choice in this.

The ones with swords and halberds look quite interesting from what you can see of them

I only saw the aforementioned ones ill look again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:

Next up for KOW are these:

Spoiler:

Will they win over GW exiles?

And again more unit fillers means less miniatures sold and less moey in the Mantic coffers.

OOoooooooo!!!

I was already planning to get Mantic Gargoyles to use as Slaaneshi Furies, as Dark Elf Harpies are way too expensive, and I'd be much happier with those Succubi as Daemonettes than the current palstic models!

I was thinking of getting Beastmen if Warhammer 9th had been enticing. If Mantic start making something that works as that sort of unit, they'll have found a solid new customer in me.

I can't get over how odd mantic stuff looks I've had loads of promo stuff over the years and I've just given it away

@TBD - No, not at all. Sigmarites are very space marine inspired: superhumans that are bigger, stronger, and more heroic than regular humans. They all sport superdefined six-packs and ginormous shoulders. Superman would be jealous.

When I say different potential player appeal, I mean: 40k targets people who want to build giant scifi armies with vehicles, infantry, lots of models, all that. Sigmar is going to appeal to people who want to play with fewer models and on a smaller table. I think, anyhow.

Incidentally, I painted my first Sigmarite just now!