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 easysauce wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
This scene wasn't about tearing Sansa down. It was about building Theon up. I'll say no more, due to spoilers and the like.

thats what I got out of it too, theon is slowly waking back up I think, I felt that he was the main focus of the scene.

Me too. I wonder if that's the problem people are having with the scene. It's a rape scene that isn't really about either the rapist or the victim, in a way it's almost incidental to the scene. Did the internet explode over the near identical Khal Drogo post wedding scene? It's been a while I don't remember.

Really don't understand what was "graphic" or "awkward" about the final scene. How can it be graphic if you don't actually see anything? Judging from the posts I read on here I was expecting something WAY more brutal than off-camera cries of pain. And awkward? No, playing that ridiculous song after Jamie's hand got cut off was awkward. I thought they handled the scene pretty well, very authentic without being gratuitous or overdoing it.

 djones520 wrote:
This scene wasn't about tearing Sansa down. It was about building Theon up. I'll say no more, due to spoilers and the like.

It weakens Theon's arc quite a bit, actually.

I think the hatred is in the whole "Rape as a plot device" because somehow that is worse than murder or stuff like that.

The phrase that I thought of about Sansa on that scene was 'stoic.'

I do hope that it is used for character development properly for her.

 Compel wrote:
The phrase that I thought of about Sansa on that scene was 'stoic.'

I do hope that it is used for character development properly for her.

Agreed.

I think the hand wringing was really premature, as the use of the scene (and whether it was appropriate or unnecessary) is really going to be contingent on how they grow her (or don't) from here.

Again, I think they will. I think it's her first real "game play." But we'll find out soon enough.

yeah I really hope this mythical sansa that isnt everyone elses pawn starts showing up.

luckily arya and brianne are coming along well, the brianne and her squire have a good arc going on too (forget his name bastard son of the king, blacksmith kid)

 easysauce wrote:
yeah I really hope this mythical sansa that isnt everyone elses pawn starts showing up.

luckily arya and brianne are coming along well, the brianne and her squire have a good arc going on too (forget his name bastard son of the king, blacksmith kid)

You have got the characters mixed up. Pod is her squire and isn't Robert's bastard that is a different character.

 gorgon wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
This scene wasn't about tearing Sansa down. It was about building Theon up. I'll say no more, due to spoilers and the like.

It weakens Theon's arc quite a bit, actually.

Spoiler:

Helping Sansa, a faux-sister whom he knows well, is one thing. He might act out of some sense of guilt after his actions against Winterfell and the Starks, or out of some sense of obligation to Robb.

Helping Jeyne is another thing. There's no obligation or guilt angle there for him. Jeyne is hurting and in need, and he acts. He has a far purer and nobler motive in the books.

Your conflating the book with the TV show though. There is no Jeyne in the tv show, so how can it be weakening his story?

 George Spiggott wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
This scene wasn't about tearing Sansa down. It was about building Theon up. I'll say no more, due to spoilers and the like.

thats what I got out of it too, theon is slowly waking back up I think, I felt that he was the main focus of the scene.

Me too. I wonder if that's the problem people are having with the scene. It's a rape scene that isn't really about either the rapist or the victim, in a way it's almost incidental to the scene. Did the internet explode over the near identical Khal Drogo post wedding scene? It's been a while I don't remember.

Frankly, we all knew what was coming with Ramsey and there will be some sort of justice out of it.

I really wish people would stop saying Drogo raped Danaerys though. In both mediums, he makes sure she knows he can understand "no" and waits for her consent. He wasn't like the other Dothraki.

People should have thrown fits about Jaime raping Cersei over their son's freshly dead corpse...

 Dr. What wrote:


People should have thrown fits about Jaime raping Cersei over their son's freshly dead corpse...

They did.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Dr. What wrote:


People should have thrown fits about Jaime raping Cersei over their son's freshly dead corpse...

They did.

My bad.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Dr. What wrote:


People should have thrown fits about Jaime raping Cersei over their son's freshly dead corpse...

They did.

what makes it worse, they still insist it was written as consensual

 Mr Morden wrote:

"A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours."

Given his descritpion of how he treated Ramsey's mother and ehr husband - slightly ironic...

He's (Roose) pretty quite and careful about his actions, unlike Ramsay. When Roose does something, very few if any knows of his actions. He whispers when he talks out of fear of someone overhearing him and having info spread like wild fire.

When Roose told Ramsay about his mother, particularly in the books, it seemed out of character. Roose has always been in control of his feelings and emotions, he pretty much has none. Ramsay's stupidity seemed to have pissed Roose off.

Yes, in the books Roose and Ramsay' s relationship is a lot more strained. The only reason Roose had Ramsay legitimized and named him heir was because Roose' s trueborn son Domeric died (possibly killed by Ramsay). There are hints that Roose's unborn child with the Frey lady will end up replacing Ramsay. At least that's what Ramsay fears.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Dr. What wrote:


People should have thrown fits about Jaime raping Cersei over their son's freshly dead corpse...

They did.

what makes it worse, they still insist it was written as consensual

It was.

And don't kid yourself. She consents pretty early on in the death room feth session on HBO, too.

Well, it sure didnt seem that way.
I may have to go rewatch it.


Just rewatched the scene.
It isnt consensual, not in the slightest. If by consent you mean the short kiss, then her pushing away, yeah no. Not consent. and he various things of "Stop it" are not consentual.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Yes, in the books Roose and Ramsay' s relationship is a lot more strained. The only reason Roose had Ramsay legitimized and named him heir was because Roose' s trueborn son Domeric died (possibly killed by Ramsay). There are hints that Roose's unborn child with the Frey lady will end up replacing Ramsay. At least that's what Ramsay fears.

Yup. There is a subtle hint that Fat Walda is pregnant but IIRC (it's been several years since I've read it) it never says straight up she is pregnant unlike the show.

He does tell theon that he could never have a legit child as long as Ramsay is alive.



Really wish Roose got a PoV, wanna see what makes him tick. Also wish the cup bearer scene with Arya stayed with Roose rather than Tywin, they were great scenes regardless.

If Domeric were still alive I wonder what part he would play in all this? He seemed nothing like his father from the bits and pieces we get from Roose. He plays the harp, reads a lot and loves horse riding.

Im not getting Ayias thing at all. Is she in training to become some faceless assassin type?

 Ratius wrote:
Im not getting Ayias thing at all. Is she in training to become some faceless assassin type?

Yes.

Sigh. SIGH. SIGH.

So up until episode 6, Sansa was starting to become less of a victim and became stoic, harsh... a woman. The writers then realized that character development is too hard to understand and then had her getting raped...and in episode 7, they decided to seal the deal and let her fall back into her own self of being irresponsible and a victim that needs to be saved.

Dorne continues to be a massive disappointment after the last episode. The writing is just awful. It's bad. Period. Dorne got little screen time and the entire screen time was wasted. Most of the screen time was wasted on pointless nudity to make up for the lazy writing. The entire scene was most likely introduced to set up another poison scene later in the episode.

The Tyrion scenes were not superb, but we're interested in seeing where it all goes.

King's Landig is interesting. Cersei keeps losing herself and bringing the entire city to the brink of ruin. The Septum thing now finally gets to Cersei and they appear to stick to the books on this one. Waiting for naked Cersei! Old Tyrell and Littlefinger back in the saddle. Hoorah!

Stannis faces an important decision which will be an important one for his character, but very little screen time.

Wall boring as ever with Jon riding of and Sam being as much of a loser as always. Not interested in either him or the girl at all. Series finally gets back to the Dagger and still, nobody gets the idea of maybe, maybe, trying to look for more of those weapons Sigh.

Overall episode rating: 5/10

Hey look on the bright side. Next week the White Walkers will be back with a vengeance.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sigh. SIGH. SIGH.

So up until episode 6, Sansa was starting to become less of a victim and became stoic, harsh... a woman. The writers then realized that character development is too hard to understand and then had her getting raped...and in episode 7, they decided to seal the deal and let her fall back into her own self of being irresponsible and a victim that needs to be saved.

Dude, have you seen the Preview for Ep8? Sansa is pissed!

If I could do what Ramsay did to you, I would!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agWcTyXrjfM

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Dude, have you seen the Preview for Ep8? Sansa is pissed!

Nah, we don't do that. Don't want to spoil ourselves. We remember her taking the sharp thingy, though.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sigh. SIGH. SIGH.

So up until episode 6, Sansa was starting to become less of a victim and became stoic, harsh... a woman. The writers then realized that character development is too hard to understand and then had her getting raped...and in episode 7, they decided to seal the deal and let her fall back into her own self of being irresponsible and a victim that needs to be saved.

Dorne continues to be a massive disappointment after the last episode. The writing is just awful. It's bad. Period. Dorne got little screen time and the entire screen time was wasted. Most of the screen time was wasted on pointless nudity to make up for the lazy writing. The entire scene was most likely introduced to set up another poison scene later in the episode.

The Tyrion scenes were not superb, but we're interested in seeing where it all goes.

King's Landig is interesting. Cersei keeps losing herself and bringing the entire city to the brink of ruin. The Septum thing now finally gets to Cersei and they appear to stick to the books on this one. Waiting for naked Cersei! Old Tyrell and Littlefinger back in the saddle. Hoorah!

Stannis faces an important decision which will be an important one for his character, but very little screen time.

Wall boring as ever with Jon riding of and Sam being as much of a loser as always. Not interested in either him or the girl at all. Series finally gets back to the Dagger and still, nobody gets the idea of maybe, maybe, trying to look for more of those weapons Sigh.

Overall episode rating: 5/10

I generally agree. The King's Landing plot line made the episode at least interesting to watch. In so far as Sansa goes I not really surprised to be honest. My theory after last week was that what was happening here was one of those "had to give the character something to do moments". So they copied and pasted a plot line from a completely different character in order to give the character and actress playing her something to do, which is lazy writing. Now this sequence is playing about how you would expect given the characters involved but overall the whole sequence feels like to me like something we have already seen. Sansa was already in a situation where she was the victim of a sadist and needed other people to save her, it is called the first few seasons with her and Joffrey. I feel we have seen this before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Hey look on the bright side. Next week the White Walkers will be back with a vengeance.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sigh. SIGH. SIGH.

So up until episode 6, Sansa was starting to become less of a victim and became stoic, harsh... a woman. The writers then realized that character development is too hard to understand and then had her getting raped...and in episode 7, they decided to seal the deal and let her fall back into her own self of being irresponsible and a victim that needs to be saved.

Dude, have you seen the Preview for Ep8? Sansa is pissed!

If I could do what Ramsay did to you, I would!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agWcTyXrjfM

Yea but given the situation, pissed or not what does she do here that doesn't involve being the victim that someone else has to save?

Great episode in what has been a great season!

The scenes at the wall were interesting and well paced. Can't wait to watch Snow and Tormund make their way North.

Really well played in Winterfell, with Sansa realizing that she's going to have to save herself if she wants to be saved. Furthers the idea that she's going to be the one to save Theon, and not the other way around.

The interactions between the Snakes and Bronn was interesting, and definitely more so than in the books. I think the interaction with Doran, the Snakes, and Jaime is going to be really cool going forward. I look forward, also, to learning why Tyene spared Bronn. Very cool indeed.

The scenes in Kings Landing were phenomenal. Diana Rigg and Pryce just killed every scene. And then Pryce with Heady was nearly as good.

Love seeing Tyrion beat the gak out of the slaver to prove his worth. Tyrion is very much turning into an angry little bulldog. And the scene in the pits....awesome.

Really great episode that was beautifully shot that really set up a lot of cool stuff moving forward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Yea but given the situation, pissed or not what does she do here that doesn't involve being the victim that someone else has to save?

Seriously?

Clearly the scene was intended to show that if she wants to be saved, she's going to have to do it herself.

Pretty blatant.

I've found this series to be really slow going so far. Feels like it's gone back to the first couple of series problem of being all build up with the pay off in episode nine. I'll bet a small fortune we have to wait until then for stannis to get to winterfell.

It's got to the point that there's more characters I don't care about than ones I do.

This is the worst season by a long shot so far. It's not a great part in the books either (they were slooooow at this point), but the writers are all over the place. Echoing what others already said, it really seems like they just don't know how to properly write a series or rather stick to the quality the series established and in the parts they had to write themselves, they thus decided to repeat what has already been in order to avoid making mistakes.

We were super excited at first after they announced to loosen themselves from the books as this also mean not knowing what will happen for GoT fans, but the last few episodes are a sad sign for the writers not being up to the job. All good scenes in the last few episodes were book scenes. By dumbing the book story down for a TV series, they just seem to get confused.

Here's hoping for them to get their stuff back together for season 6 (as I believe they've already got season 5 fully done).

But alas, naked Cersei soon.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Yea but given the situation, pissed or not what does she do here that doesn't involve being the victim that someone else has to save?

Seriously?

Clearly the scene was intended to show that if she wants to be saved, she's going to have to do it herself.

Pretty blatant.

All I saw man was that she was pissed at Theon. Which given that Theon told Ramsy on her and got her only connection to her allies tortured and killed, it is a totally understandable reaction.

I would LOVE to see Sansa save herself mind you, it is just I have my doubts. That said Sansa did grab what seemed to be a woodworking tool when she was on the wall with Ramsey, so maybe she will try to defend herself who knows.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Yea but given the situation, pissed or not what does she do here that doesn't involve being the victim that someone else has to save?

Seriously?

Clearly the scene was intended to show that if she wants to be saved, she's going to have to do it herself.

Pretty blatant.

All I saw man was that she was pissed at Theon. Which given that Theon told Ramsy on her and got her only connection to her allies tortured and killed, it is a totally understandable reaction.

I would LOVE to see Sansa save herself mind you, it is just I have my doubts. That said Sansa did grab what seemed to be a woodworking tool when she was on the wall with Ramsey, so maybe she will try to defend herself who knows.

If in the next episode, she is about to stab Bolton and is then stopped by a henchman, I'll be pissed. We'd have gone full circle then as the exact same thing happened with her and Joffrey / The Hound before.

Agreed that its been a slow season this one. Nothing has really grabbed me and they havent taken many big steps forward either.