Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You are allowed you own opinion, and while I agree some of the story lines are better, I disagree that Stannis' is better, I'm not overly keen on his reliance on Mel and the whole burning my daughter because now I'm a religious fanatic change.

Dany's feels like the same trash its always been, Tyrion's is a bit improved.

Jamie's story was improved with the replacing of Payne with Bronn, but then like you pointed out made bad with Dorne.

It's always summer, under the sea
I know, I know, oh, oh, oh
The birds have scales, and the fish take wing
I know, I know, oh, oh, oh
The rain is dry, and the snow falls up
I know, I know, oh, oh, oh
The stones crack open, the water burns
The shadows come to dance, my lord
The shadows come to play
The shadows come to dance, my lord
The shadows come to stay

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You are allowed you own opinion, and while I agree some of the story lines are better, I disagree that Stannis' is better, I'm not overly keen on his reliance on Mel and the whole burning my daughter because now I'm a religious fanatic change.

Dany's feels like the same trash its always been, Tyrion's is a bit improved.

Jamie's story was improved with the replacing of Payne with Bronn, but then like you pointed out made bad with Dorne.

Again, you speak the truth.

D&D really just seem to hate Stannis, and clearly just needed a way to stop the growing fanbase of the guy they hate so much.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Some of the changes are not good, particularly last night's changes.

I understand the need to show him as a man that will do what he needs to in order to win, but having him kill his own daughter because I need the blizzard to stop is not a good way to go about it. Plus having him go with a method closer to the book would build the story better, rather than what they now have.

Oh, it wasn't too far when he killed the rest of his family, used demons, etc so on?

Renly was a usurper, and the parts you don't see in the show, are him regretting having to have him killed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

Again, you speak the truth.

D&D really just seem to hate Stannis, and clearly just needed a way to stop the growing fanbase of the guy they hate so much.

That is what it seems like.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
the whole burning my daughter because now I'm a religious fanatic change.

Burning my daughter because otherwise most of the people in my camp will die, including my wife and daughter, and my chance at the iron throne will die with me, leaving many under the rule of usurpers and madmen.

I'm not saying it is right, but at least get his motivations right.

 pretre wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
the whole burning my daughter because now I'm a religious fanatic change.

Burning my daughter because otherwise most of the people in my camp will die, including my wife and daughter, and my chance at the iron throne will die with me, leaving many under the rule of usurpers and madmen.

I'm not saying it is right, but at least get his motivations right.

Which is a change from how in the books he tells everyone in the army to pray harder, because he is unwilling to burn Asha Greyjoy, an enemy, so why would he burn his daughter for the same thing? He never bought in to Mel's stuff about him being Azhor Azai, he used it as a means to an end.

"I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King’s Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men."

 Asherian Command wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Some of the changes are not good, particularly last night's changes.

I understand the need to show him as a man that will do what he needs to in order to win, but having him kill his own daughter because I need the blizzard to stop is not a good way to go about it. Plus having him go with a method closer to the book would build the story better, rather than what they now have.

I disagree. I think these storylines are much better than the books.

Dany's storyline is much bitter.

So is Tyrions, Stannis's is much better, Theons, Jon's and every single character's storyline (minus dorne's That storyline was pretty bad).

I thought overall this was a better episode than the rest of the season (minus episode 8, which was fantastic)

Agreed so much

the last few books were trash of the worst order.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
As I think it was said in the books, Stannis is iron...strong but brittle. Robert was the steel in that family.

But I dunno...if someone wants to say that it was out of character for show Stannis, I won't argue with them. They definitely downplayed his messiah complex in recent seasons and (greatly) built him up as a family man.

If I had to criticize the show writers, it'd be that sometimes the characterizations wander a little in the interest of creating bigger drama and shocking water cooler conversation moments. But I do understand that it's TV, and this is a mild criticism.

Spoiler:

So do we get the pleasure of watching Daenerys die of greyscale now?

No because she didn't touch his greyscale affliction directly.

But Shireen didn't touch it directly either, right? If Shireen could get it from a doll, why couldn't Daenerys catch it from Jorah's hand? Especially a hand that was unwashed, sweaty, etc.

Then again, TV and science.



Regarding 'shockers' and the writers' reliance on them, I almost wonder if it's partially a symptom of the social media-oriented, OMFG!!1! society that we've become. Now execs can see and track how much people are talking about a moment in the show, and immediately after it happens onscreen. I can't believe that the execs haven't told the writers to give them more Red Weddings.

Cripes, I think Twitter is going to go supernova next Sunday.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
the whole burning my daughter because now I'm a religious fanatic change.

Burning my daughter because otherwise most of the people in my camp will die, including my wife and daughter, and my chance at the iron throne will die with me, leaving many under the rule of usurpers and madmen.

I'm not saying it is right, but at least get his motivations right.

If you're really worried about getting it right (edits in red):


Burning my daughter because otherwise most of the people in my camp might die, including my wife and daughter, and my chance at the iron throne might die with me, leaving many under the rule of usurpers and madmen. Then again, the weather could also break on its own.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Which is a change from how in the books

Yep. This whole season is largely changed from the books and, as I said, I think that's a good thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Gorgon: Fair enough.

"The weather could also break on its own"

It's ASOIAF, and it's winter. This does not happen.

 gorgon wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
As I think it was said in the books, Stannis is iron...strong but brittle. Robert was the steel in that family.

But I dunno...if someone wants to say that it was out of character for show Stannis, I won't argue with them. They definitely downplayed his messiah complex in recent seasons and (greatly) built him up as a family man.

If I had to criticize the show writers, it'd be that sometimes the characterizations wander a little in the interest of creating bigger drama and shocking water cooler conversation moments. But I do understand that it's TV, and this is a mild criticism.

Spoiler:

So do we get the pleasure of watching Daenerys die of greyscale now?

No because she didn't touch his greyscale affliction directly.

But Shireen didn't touch it directly either, right? If Shireen could get it from a doll, why couldn't Daenerys catch it from Jorah's hand? Especially a hand that was unwashed, sweaty, etc.

Then again, TV and science.

The greyscale was on the doll, and Shireen touched the doll to her face.

As for Jorah & Dany I don't know. Just watching it myself now.

I'm team Bolton now. The only good thing Stannis can do now is not drag Ser Davos down with him. Sadly I think Ser Davos will do something moral (probably involving Stannis's wife) and get offed.

 pretre wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Which is a change from how in the books

Yep. This whole season is largely changed from the books and, as I said, I think that's a good thing.

And I don't, killing Barristan and Shireen is a mistake.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Which is a change from how in the books

Yep. This whole season is largely changed from the books and, as I said, I think that's a good thing.

And I don't, killing Barristan and Shireen is a mistake.

Sure, but the mistakes outweigh the gains. Think of how many hours of description you have avoided.

True, we are missing out on the overly detailed feasts and Chain Mail and Boiled Leather.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
True, we are missing out on the overly detailed feasts and Chain Mail and Boiled Leather.

Or the smell and consistency of Lannister poop.

I've got to say, my takeaway from the books was that Stannis was never a religious fanatic. His wife? Yeah, sure, she was. Stannis, as you say, it was a means to an end.

Now, here's a question...

Does this mean that Stannis defeats the Boltons, to an extent at least? (EG maybe the Boltons run away, but still, they're defeated).

Because, thinking of the show and books so far - and I've been trying to keep track - I don't think 'magic' has ever been wrong once. Maybe not worked out perfectly, or whatever. But it's never been wrong.

Aren't Targaryens supposed to be immune/resistant to a lot of diseases? I remember Dany talking about how she remembers being cold/hungry/exhausted, but never sick when she's reflecting on her time with Viserys. Then again, I also remember something about how greyscale was made to target Valyrians, but that was probably some fan theory about the Doom.

 Compel wrote:
I've got to say, my takeaway from the books was that Stannis was never a religious fanatic. His wife? Yeah, sure, she was. Stannis, as you say, it was a means to an end.

Its quite the role reversal! Just watching it now.

Selyse, the religious fanatic who's been pretty consistently fanatical since her introduction in Season 2 and has been scornful and dismissive of Shireen for 4 seasons, is the one who cracks. Not Stannis, even after all the affection he's shown her and all the times he defended Shireen against Selyse's scorn and Melisandre's evil intentions.

"I can't!"
"Theres no other way! She has King's Blood."

My takeaway from this is not that he is a religious fanatic either. He could give a crap about the LoL. That being said, the LoL is known to get results so he uses him.

If Shireen could kill folks everytime someone carved her a deer, Stannis would have his men carving her deer all day everyday. He doesn't care how things work, just that they work.

In fact, I would say that Stannis probably hates the red woman and LoL for what he has done for them but the ends justify the means in his book.

Anyway....FETH STANNIS AND HIS RED B****!

Like Iron, he will break before he bends. The Others take him. (Speaking of which, I once read a fan theory about Stannis switching sides to the White Walkers and becoming the new Night's King. Now that the real Night's King has been introduced, thats unlikely, but I can see him joining the side of the White Walkers when the Long Night arrives next season).

When Davos hears about this, I'm hoping that Davos says "Feth that bastard!" and finds someone more deserving of his loyalty.

Yeah, my feelings exactly Pretre.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
When Davos hears about this, I'm hoping that Davos says "Feth that bastard!" and finds someone more deserving of his loyalty.

Unlikely. That's the problem with loyal folks. They are often loyal to a fault.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
"The weather could also break on its own"

It's ASOIAF, and it's winter. This does not happen.

Exactly they were screwed but if it stopped somehow in WEsteros that is completely unheard of in that world


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
My takeaway from this is not that he is a religious fanatic either. He could give a crap about the LoL. That being said, the LoL is known to get results so he uses him.

If Shireen could kill folks everytime someone carved her a deer, Stannis would have his men carving her deer all day everyday. He doesn't care how things work, just that they work.

In fact, I would say that Stannis probably hates the red woman and LoL for what he has done for them but the ends justify the means in his book.

I had similar thinking. I mean his acts are horrible but remember the road to hell is often with good intentions.

This character is interesting I still like stannis and it doesn't change my mind.

I mean the boltons are still much much worse than Stannis ever could be. One the boltons betrayed their king, two they torture and flay people alive, three they use fear to conquer others, four they have killed people that were lords and prisoners, five they rape and pillage, six they kill their own kin to get more power(Ramsay). And they would readily kill anyone in their path for power.

it is basically two powers versus each other.

I didn't mind the scene with stannis. They made it clear several times this season that Stannis sees this situation as a do or die moment. he either wins or loses everything, and that point his daughter would likely be dead or a captive. He also was very clearly struggling with the decision.

I am looking forward to team Bolton vs. team Stannis personally. Both sides known for killing their captives in horrible ways and both are hated by a lot of Game of Throne's fans at this point.

I am personally rooting for team Stannis. I have liked stannis as a character ever sense season 2.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
True, we are missing out on the overly detailed feasts and Chain Mail and Boiled Leather.

Legions of dull pointless characters, hundreds of pages of absolute drek.

I thought Stanis has been pretty consistant throughout - he will do whatever is required to get what he wants - he is another "honourable" man who will kill, maim, toruture and burn anyone but will likely keep his word.

watching new epsiode tonight.

Hoping Ramsey is around for ages yet - best bad guy in it - need to bring his girlfriend back into it was well.

 Blood Hawk wrote:
I didn't mind the scene with stannis. They made it clear several times this season that Stannis sees this situation as a do or die moment. he either wins or loses everything, and that point his daughter would likely be dead or a captive. He also was very clearly struggling with the decision.

I am looking forward to team Bolton vs. team Stannis personally. Both sides known for killing their captives in horrible ways and both are hated by a lot of Game of Throne's fans at this point.

I am personally rooting for team Stannis. I have liked stannis as a character ever sense season 2.

Legions of dull pointless characters, hundreds of pages of absolute drek.

I thought Stanis has been pretty consistant throughout - he will do whatever is required to get what he wants - he is another "honourable" man who will kill, maim, toruture and burn anyone but will likely keep his word.

watching new epsiode tonight.

I agree with all this

Stannis is still the Mannis. I expected him to make the decision. Though it still horrified me and shocked me.

But I still think in those circumstances other characters might of done something similar.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Stannis is still the Mannis

Glad I am not the only one to still support the One True King. I may not like what the show did, but he is still Stan the Man.

And you know, he did say this;

"I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice."

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Stannis is still the Mannis

Glad I am not the only one to still support the One True King. I may not like what the show did, but he is still Stan the Man.

And you know, he did say this;

"I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice."

Wow look at that foreshadowing... Ithought it was dead.