Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm glad the show is deviating so much Gorgon. It means the book will still have new things for us when we finally get them.

I was annoyed with it at one point, but now I agree with you.

Besides, I hazard to guess that GRRM had some things in mind that he didn't share with the showrunners.

 gorgon wrote:


What you need to understand is that the show -- which is entertaining and well done, don't get me wrong -- is like a Sesame Street production of War and Peace. Or maybe more like looking at the above-water portion of an iceberg.

I do get this, but jeez, things need to move along a little!

The fact that the Sparrows are still allowed to hold the Queen is impossible. It's driving me nuts, lol.

 gorgon wrote:
I was annoyed with it at one point, but now I agree with you.

Besides, I hazard to guess that GRRM had some things in mind that he didn't share with the showrunners.

Or that he told them some things and they passed on it.

"So you're saying that the whitwalkers were actually created when a priest of the God of Light had sexy times with a dragon?"

"Yes! I can show how with these puppets I brought!"

"That's OK, George. We're going with them being ancestors of the Starks or whatever..."

Last I heard (I don't really keep up with these things) is that GRRM was thinking the book series might go to eight books, not seven as previously stated. And then we're probably looking at what, 2030 for completion at his pace?

So yeah, I expect the show to wind up in another couple seasons, while the book series continues with a wildly different story and somewhat different conclusion.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 gorgon wrote:


What you need to understand is that the show -- which is entertaining and well done, don't get me wrong -- is like a Sesame Street production of War and Peace. Or maybe more like looking at the above-water portion of an iceberg.

I do get this, but jeez, things need to move along a little!

The fact that the Sparrows are still allowed to hold the Queen is impossible. It's driving me nuts, lol.

Cersei wants them to hold her. It's why she arranged the whole matter, she just wasn't counting on the backfire. Hence why she's made no effort to get her free.

And remember that in Kings Landing at least the Sparrows have essentially the only military. They heavily outnumber the Gold Cloaks and the main Lannister army is still dealing with a large number of threats which include the North, the continuing rebellion in the Riverlands, and the Eirie (sp?). It's not hard to understand that the balance of power is in their favor as long as they don't push it.

Unfortunately Jaime is back and he'll push it. Plus it puts someone with real experience with warfare and authority in a position that they'll be listened to. To this point only Uncle Kevan has come back and his son is a sparrow and having Cersai locked up was actually good for the kingdom.

Plus does anyone think Jaime isn't going to do what he needs to to keep his only remaining child safe and happy after watching his daughter die in his arms?

 Hulksmash wrote:
And remember that in Kings Landing at least the Sparrows have essentially the only military. They heavily outnumber the Gold Cloaks and the main Lannister army is still dealing with a large number of threats which include the North, the continuing rebellion in the Riverlands, and the Eirie (sp?). It's not hard to understand that the balance of power is in their favor as long as they don't push it.

Unfortunately Jaime is back and he'll push it. Plus it puts someone with real experience with warfare and authority in a position that they'll be listened to. To this point only Uncle Kevan has come back and his son is a sparrow and having Cersai locked up was actually good for the kingdom.

Plus does anyone think Jaime isn't going to do what he needs to to keep his only remaining child safe and happy after watching his daughter die in his arms?

Yeah, I think Jaime is going to work counter to Cersei's wishes on this one. As it stands right now he has no real point it going to confront the Sparrows, as the trailers showed. If he's doing it, my money is on he's doing it at the request of his son.

Request of his son and his anger at what they did to his sister/lover But agreed. He's going to operate counter to Cersai's original wishes.

 Necros wrote:
I used to feel that way about the dragon lady storyline, till Tyrion got there, now I like it. Maybe Tyrion just needs to go to Dorn to make it watchable?

Thats actually not implausible...perhaps he could show up on the Dornish borders, with a certain Golden mercenary Company flying a Targaryen banner instead of a certain blue haired griffon...Prompting Dorne to send an envoy.

 djones520 wrote:


Yeah, I think Jaime is going to work counter to Cersei's wishes on this one. As it stands right now he has no real point it going to confront the Sparrows, as the trailers showed. If he's doing it, my money is on he's doing it at the request of his son.

This is another thing that annoys me to no end. How in the world can anyone think that those are Robert Baratheon's children at this point? All blond and blue eyed in a Kingdom with dark skin, dark eyes and dark hair. One child, okay. But all of them???

Also, theres a key detail everyone is overlooking with Danny. In the show, she's a 14 ish teenage child. In the show, shes a grown adult. Of course thats going to influence how decisive and assertive she is.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 djones520 wrote:


Yeah, I think Jaime is going to work counter to Cersei's wishes on this one. As it stands right now he has no real point it going to confront the Sparrows, as the trailers showed. If he's doing it, my money is on he's doing it at the request of his son.

This is another thing that annoys me to no end. How in the world can anyone think that those are Robert Baratheon's children at this point? All blond and blue eyed in a Kingdom with dark skin, dark eyes and dark hair. One child, okay. But all of them???

Because their mother has those features... even the distrustful Eddard Stark didn't immediately get it when he was looking for it. For all everyone knew, the Lannister genes were dominant. It took a book that specifically listed previous Lannister/Baratheon unions giving dark haired off spring for anyone to make the connection.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Also, theres a key detail everyone is overlooking with Danny. In the show, she's a 14 ish teenage child. In the show, shes a grown adult. Of course thats going to influence how decisive and assertive she is.

Do you mean in the BOOK she is 14?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:


Because their mother has those features... even the distrustful Eddard Stark didn't immediately get it when he was looking for it.

I get it, but not all three. In the first book (yes, I read that one only) it mentions something about how they look like their real father iirc.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 djones520 wrote:


Yeah, I think Jaime is going to work counter to Cersei's wishes on this one. As it stands right now he has no real point it going to confront the Sparrows, as the trailers showed. If he's doing it, my money is on he's doing it at the request of his son.

This is another thing that annoys me to no end. How in the world can anyone think that those are Robert Baratheon's children at this point? All blond and blue eyed in a Kingdom with dark skin, dark eyes and dark hair. One child, okay. But all of them???

They don't believe it. Its an open secret both on the show and in the books. As early as Season 2, commoners were rioting and calling the King (Joffrey) a bastard to his face. The Upper Class and Royal Couriters are simply too afraid to discuss it openly but you can bet your ass they don't believe the official Royalist propaganda.

The Sparrows didn't come out of nowhere, they tapped into the popular discontent and resentment for the Lannisters amongst the common folk. Hell, even a few Upper Class nobles (Lancel Lannister) are attracted to their cause.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
yeah the Black is a life sentence - nah Sam your my best mate, you head south with your girlfriend and have a nice comfy life - but the rest of you lucky lads, well you get to hold a stupidly large wall against the undead whilst we let the wildlings in - nah they wont help defend it - come on there are at least 40 of you left - course we can hold it on our own. Wierdly the kid who saw his friends and family slaughtered by those same wildings - including Jon's girlfriend, is not happy. Most of the Watch are murderers and thieves - and likely looing for the opportunity to get out of dodge before the undead finally wander over .

Jon had a legitimate reason for sending Sam to the Citadel - Castle Black desperately needs a Maester. Sam apprenticed under Maester Aemon, so of all the moment at Castle Black he is the natural candidate. Granted, it could also be viewed as an instance of nepotism. Sending Gilly with him also had legitimate reasons behind it - the Wall is no place for a woman and mother. And again, granted, this could also be interpreted as a betrayal of the values of the Night's Watch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mdlbuildr wrote:
It would be truly idiotic if they resurrected Jon Snow.

Did they do that in the books?

I take it you don't like Fantasy then?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


They don't believe it. Its an open secret both on the show and in the books. As early as Season 2, commoners were rioting and calling the King (Joffrey) a bastard to his face. The Upper Class and Royal Couriters are simply too afraid to discuss it openly but you can bet your ass they don't believe the official Royalist propaganda.

Which is exactly my problem with the whole thing!

With Tywin's and Joffrey's deaths, along with Jaime's loss of status and fighting prowess due to his hand being cut off, it would seem that someone should have already made a successful call to the Throne. I think it would make a much more interesting story to find the next King than to continue the charade of the Lannisters' hold to power. Tommen's hold of the Throne, especailly with the Queen Mother and the Queen in prison is laughable. Especially with his "soft touch" as someone already pointed out.

In the books, was there anyone else of Barotheon's lineage that could make a call to the throne?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Also, theres a key detail everyone is overlooking with Danny. In the show, she's a 14 ish teenage child. In the show, shes a grown adult. Of course thats going to influence how decisive and assertive she is.

Given what she has been through - attempted assassination, abusive brother, marriage, war, motherhood, killing her beloved, burning alive, but remaing unhurt, dragons, more war, leading armies, seeing a hundred children crucified to annoy her, more war,

She is not your average teenager or indeed woman. Also like the medievil period its based on - you grew up fast, however you are. Noble boys would be expected to eb able to fight and kill at her age, girls to marry and bear children.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It's not even 'idiotic' in the context of the TV Series.

Please explain why you think so. Why specifically is Jon Snow's resurrection so important to the plot?

You're making the claim, you're the one thats obligated to back it up. Why do you think its idiotic?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


I take it you don't like Fantasy then?

I'm not a huge fan, but really enjoy stories about medieval times even with some magic thrown in. I prefer stories like "The Pillars of the Earth" by Ken Follett, but GoT is rather intriguing. It almost lost me last season, though.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Also, theres a key detail everyone is overlooking with Danny. In the show, she's a 14 ish teenage child. In the show, shes a grown adult. Of course thats going to influence how decisive and assertive she is.

Given what she has been through - attempted assassination, abusive brother, marriage, war, motherhood, killing her beloved, burning alive, but remaing unhurt, dragons, more war, leading armies, seeing a hundred children crucified to annoy her, more war,

She is not your average teenager or indeed woman. Also like the medievil period its based on - you grew up fast, however you are. Noble boys would be expected to eb able to fight and kill at her age, girls to marry and bear children.

Yeah, I never got peoples hatred for Danny. When you actually look at her life, the fact that she has anything resembling sanity should just show how strong her character is.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It's not even 'idiotic' in the context of the TV Series.

Please explain why you think so. Why specifically is Jon Snow's resurrection so important to the plot?

You're making the claim, you're the one thats obligated to back it up. Why do you think its idiotic?

Someone already explained to me why it's not idiotic and I bought his argument. Case closed. Thanks.

I know that the show is a little ahead of the books now, but I don't know that we have seen much of him in either: but with Stanis dead, isn't Gendry the rightful heir to House Baratheon if he were to be legitimized?

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


They don't believe it. Its an open secret both on the show and in the books. As early as Season 2, commoners were rioting and calling the King (Joffrey) a bastard to his face. The Upper Class and Royal Couriters are simply too afraid to discuss it openly but you can bet your ass they don't believe the official Royalist propaganda.

Which is exactly my problem with the whole thing!

With Tywin's and Joffrey's deaths, along with Jaime's loss of status and fighting prowess due to his hand being cut off, it would seem that someone should have already made a successful call to the Throne. I think it would make a much more interesting story to find the next King than to continue the charade of the Lannisters' hold to power. Tommen's hold of the Throne, especailly with the Queen Mother and the Queen in prison is laughable. Especially with his "soft touch" as someone already pointed out.

In the books, was there anyone else of Barotheon's lineage that could make a call to the throne?

In the books the only ones are Stannis and his daughter. They haven't been killed, yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
I know that the show is a little ahead of the books now, but I don't know that we have seen much of him in either: but with Stanis dead, isn't Gendey the rightful heir to House Baratheon if he were to be legitimized?

I'd say more weight would be thrown behind the bastard that was recognized. He was held at Storms Keep, and basically Gendry took his place in the show, with the escape from Stannis.

In the show, 6 people knew who Gendry was, and only two of them are still alive.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


I take it you don't like Fantasy then?

I'm not a huge fan, but really enjoy stories about medieval times even with some magic thrown in. I prefer stories like "The Pillars of the Earth" by Ken Follett, but GoT is rather intriguing. It almost lost me last season, though.

Then I recommend you give up Game of Thrones. This is not the book or show for you if you think fantasy staples like resurrection are idiotic. It might have started out as an apparently mundane and down to earth medieval setting, but it is very much a fantasy story.

 d-usa wrote:
I know that the show is a little ahead of the books now, but I don't know that we have seen much of him in either: but with Stanis dead, isn't Gendry the rightful heir to House Baratheon if he were to be legitimized?

Only if someone important backs him - a man alone with a claim on the throne and trying to do something about it is a dead man................

Remember that the throne has recently, in living memory, been taken by force and the whole Targaryian claim is based on an invasion. If you are strong enough to take and hold the throne you can manefacture a legitamcy.......

 Mr Morden wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I know that the show is a little ahead of the books now, but I don't know that we have seen much of him in either: but with Stanis dead, isn't Gendry the rightful heir to House Baratheon if he were to be legitimized?

Only if someone important backs him - a man alone with a claim on the throne and trying to do something about it is a dead man................

Remember that the throne has recently, in living memory, been taken by force and the whole Targaryian claim is based on an invasion. If you are strong enough to take and hold the throne you can manefacture a legitamcy.......

I wasn't thinking of the throne itself. But right now nobody really had a good claim on Storm's End and Dragonstone. Tommin has the current claim, but as bastard it isn't really his. And at the rate that the whole family is dying off it wouldn't take long for him to meet the same fate.

Gendry Baratheon wouldn't have to push for a claim to the throne, but as the head of House Baratheon he could be a good ally to the North and House Targarean. Somebody would still have to back him or legitimize him for the claim to House Baratheon. And thanks to last season we have neither Stanis nor his daughter to contest that claim.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


They don't believe it. Its an open secret both on the show and in the books. As early as Season 2, commoners were rioting and calling the King (Joffrey) a bastard to his face. The Upper Class and Royal Couriters are simply too afraid to discuss it openly but you can bet your ass they don't believe the official Royalist propaganda.

Which is exactly my problem with the whole thing!

With Tywin's and Joffrey's deaths, along with Jaime's loss of status and fighting prowess due to his hand being cut off, it would seem that someone should have already made a successful call to the Throne. I think it would make a much more interesting story to find the next King than to continue the charade of the Lannisters' hold to power. Tommen's hold of the Throne, especailly with the Queen Mother and the Queen in prison is laughable. Especially with his "soft touch" as someone already pointed out.

In the books, was there anyone else of Barotheon's lineage that could make a call to the throne?

well there is that girl with the dragons, being a targarian and not a usurper gives her a legitimate claim. just a random thought, Her mothers house might just be useful in getting her back the throne.

Then apparently the starks had a claim, but barotheons was the stronger claim, so that puts bran & the other boy in the line.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Then I recommend you give up Game of Thrones. This is not the book or show for you if you think fantasy staples like resurrection are idiotic. It might have started out as an apparently mundane and down to earth medieval setting, but it is very much a fantasy story.

LMAO, I've watched 5 seasons so far. I think I'm okay, thanks. Appreciate the concern, though.

 d-usa wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I know that the show is a little ahead of the books now, but I don't know that we have seen much of him in either: but with Stanis dead, isn't Gendry the rightful heir to House Baratheon if he were to be legitimized?

Only if someone important backs him - a man alone with a claim on the throne and trying to do something about it is a dead man................

Remember that the throne has recently, in living memory, been taken by force and the whole Targaryian claim is based on an invasion. If you are strong enough to take and hold the throne you can manefacture a legitamcy.......

I wasn't thinking of the throne itself. But right now nobody really had a good claim on Storm's End and Dragonstone. Tommin has the current claim, but as bastard it isn't really his. And at the rate that the whole family is dying off it wouldn't take long for him to meet the same fate.

Gendry Baratheon wouldn't have to push for a claim to the throne, but as the head of House Baratheon he could be a good ally to the North and House Targarean. Somebody would still have to back him or legitimize him for the claim to House Baratheon. And thanks to last season we have neither Stanis nor his daughter to contest that claim.

The most prominent Knight in the service of House Baratheon would acknowledge him though. That might be enough. I'm thinking we'll never see Gendry again though.

He's also still the Hand as well isn't he?