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 d-usa wrote:
He's also still the Hand as well isn't he?

That's a level of authority that I'd say was debatable. Stannis is dead, so what is he Hand to?

 djones520 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
He's also still the Hand as well isn't he?

That's a level of authority that I'd say was debatable. Stannis is dead, so what is he Hand to?

I wasn't sure about how aware different factions were about his death. I also wasn't sure if the Hand remains the Hand after death and acts together with the other members of the small council to keep the kingdom running until the next king appoints a new Hand.

 d-usa wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
He's also still the Hand as well isn't he?

That's a level of authority that I'd say was debatable. Stannis is dead, so what is he Hand to?

I wasn't sure about how aware different factions were about his death. I also wasn't sure if the Hand remains the Hand after death and acts together with the other members of the small council to keep the kingdom running until the next king appoints a new Hand.

If he were hand in Kings Landing, I'd say you'd be right. His status though was hardly heralded even within the faction loyal to Stannis though. At this point, I'd say he's nothing more then a Knight again. Just one who was very close to the former King.

True.

I would think that if Gendry were to make a claim, his main backers would likely be Varis (although his involvement is more concrete in the books I think), Davos, and possibly John Snow.

That would be after somebody makes him aware that he even has a claim, that is...

 d-usa wrote:
True.

I would think that if Gendry were to make a claim, his main backers would likely be Varis (although his involvement is more concrete in the books I think), Davos, and possibly John Snow.

That would be after somebody makes him aware that he even has a claim, that is...

Well, he was informed by Melisandre, and Stannis, that he was the prior kings son, in the show at least. In the books, Varys may be the only one who knows who he is, and after all the work Varys has done to get a Targaryean back on the throne, I doubt he'd going to give any support to a bastard who could also lay claim to it.

Edit: No trying to disagree with everything, just enjoying the discussion, as I've been stuck at work far longer today then I typically like.

Totally forgot about her telling him.

I don't know that Varis or Danny would go full Robert and kill all the members of competing houses, so they may be okay with backing his claim to House Baratheon as long as he bends the knee and realizes that's his only claim. I think Tyrion also shares his fathers opinion on making your enemy bend the knee, then helping him back to his feet. Of course it's all total speculation, but it's fun to think about the possibilities.

It's also a much more fun discussion than our usual political head butting.

 d-usa wrote:
Totally forgot about her telling him.

I don't know that Varis or Danny would go full Robert and kill all the members of competing houses, so they may be okay with backing his claim to House Baratheon as long as he bends the knee and realizes that's his only claim. I think Tyrion also shares his fathers opinion on making your enemy bend the knee, then helping him back to his feet. Of course it's all total speculation, but it's fun to think about the possibilities.

It's also a much more fun discussion than our usual political head butting.

Danny, prior to Tyrion may have, but with his influence now, I think she'll start to get the true picture of Westeros, not the jaded one that her brother always painted for her. Especially if she ever learns why the Starks and Baratheons rebelled in the first place.

I could see him getting stood up as Lord of House Baratheon if they were inclined to worry about it at all. So far we've completely forgotten about the Riverlands and the Eirie once Littlefinger left so who really knows at this point. So I wouldn't be surprised if we just forget about another Great House. The only reason the Tyrell's are even seen anymore is that their daughter is the queen. If it's not Dorne, Lannister, Targaryan or Bolton/Stark it doesn't exist anymore in a meaningful way.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I could see him getting stood up as Lord of House Baratheon if they were inclined to worry about it at all. So far we've completely forgotten about the Riverlands and the Eirie once Littlefinger left so who really knows at this point. So I wouldn't be surprised if we just forget about another Great House. The only reason the Tyrell's are even seen anymore is that their daughter is the queen. If it's not Dorne, Lannister, Targaryan or Bolton/Stark it doesn't exist anymore in a meaningful way.

Which is another beef I have with the show. Can say a lot of thinks about GRRM, but damn is he thorough. We know whose running the Riverlands, the Stormlands, and all of that stuff could have a play in the future.

 d-usa wrote:
True.

I would think that if Gendry were to make a claim, his main backers would likely be Varis (although his involvement is more concrete in the books I think), Davos, and possibly John Snow.

That would be after somebody makes him aware that he even has a claim, that is...

Varis backs Dany - thats clear from the show, the books are floundering about in their own diverse directions. Davos - I am not sure what he would do - same as if he finds out what happened so a certain daughter of Stanis at the hands of the Red Woman, but maybe there is no one left to tell him, although there were quite a few deserters..........

Not sure why anyone would back Gendry, he is an unacknowledged bastard with no status, money, solider,s standing - he could be used as a pawn by someone like Littlefinger but its unlikely.

Gendry will never claim the Iron Throne, but what about Dragonstone and Storm's End? As the last living known Baratheon (by blood), he is the heir to House Baratheon, bastard or no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


They don't believe it. Its an open secret both on the show and in the books. As early as Season 2, commoners were rioting and calling the King (Joffrey) a bastard to his face. The Upper Class and Royal Couriters are simply too afraid to discuss it openly but you can bet your ass they don't believe the official Royalist propaganda.

Which is exactly my problem with the whole thing!

With Tywin's and Joffrey's deaths, along with Jaime's loss of status and fighting prowess due to his hand being cut off, it would seem that someone should have already made a successful call to the Throne. I think it would make a much more interesting story to find the next King than to continue the charade of the Lannisters' hold to power. Tommen's hold of the Throne, especailly with the Queen Mother and the Queen in prison is laughable. Especially with his "soft touch" as someone already pointed out.

In the books, was there anyone else of Barotheon's lineage that could make a call to the throne?

Legitimacy is irrelevant if you lack the power to take and hold the throne thats rightfully yours. The realm might well be aware that the Lannister dynasty is a fraud, but the Lannisters have a powerful army and allies backing them up. Everyone is afraid of them.

Yep, the reason Robert lasted so long was that he was essentially godson to one of the high houses, blood brother with another, head of the house for a third and married to a member of the fourth. Oh and his blood brother was married to the oldest daughter and was the sister of the heir of a 5th great house (as was his godfather). The only houses he wasn't attached to of the 7 was the Martells and Tyrells.

The 4 of the 5 is what kept the Lannisters in check too. The Eyrie, Stormlords, Riverlands, and the North would never have supported an overt move against the crown.

With the North in the midst of it's own civil war, the vale hiding behind it's mountains, the stormlords essentially destroyed/bent the knee to the crown and the riverlands in flames there is no one to stand against the Lannisters. And before his death Tywin was the most feared noble in the realm (and his word was good). That's why the Lannister kids can bang each other, make babies, and the rest of the realm just ignores it.

Gendry will never claim the Iron Throne, but what about Dragonstone and Storm's End? As the last living known Baratheon (by blood), he is the heir to House Baratheon, bastard or no.

If he is unacknowleged - how does he prove his claim?

Gendry would have to be naturalised by a royal decree... not a prayer. Dany wouldn't grant it, naturally because the Baratheons wiped out her family. Cersei would kill him.

As for Jaime Lannister's loss of status- nobody knows he can't fight with exception to Bronn, Tyrion and Cersei.

@Shadow Captain Edithae: Everyone feared Tywin. Not the Lannisters in general.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Gendry would have to be naturalised by a royal decree... not a prayer. Dany wouldn't grant it, naturally because the Baratheons wiped out her family. Cersei would kill him.

As for Jaime Lannister's loss of status- nobody knows he can't fight with exception to Bronn, Tyrion and Cersei.

@Shadow Captain Edithae: Everyone feared Tywin. Not the Lannisters in general.

Indeed - there are also likely other minor members of House Baratheon alive who will claim it - perhaps just by marriage.

They still fear the Lannister army.

As for Gendry claiming Storm's End...will he even have to prove his claim? When the Long Night hits, the laws of nobility and inheritance are gonna be a moot point. Most of Westeros will be in ruin, and the few people and minor houses that remain loyal to House Baratheon may well decide to follow a Baratheon bastard.

At this point, though, no one is there lead the Lannister Army. The realm must know that Tywin is dead and Cersei was imprisoned. The time to strike is now!!!

Tywin wasn't leading the Lannister forces directly once he became the Hand and stayed at Kings Landing. Nothing much would have changed in the field.

The whole North is a mess.
The Eyrie presumably sees Littlefinger consolidating his power and establishing ties with Riverrun.
Highgarden and Casterly Rock are bound together pretty tightly at this point.
Storm's End is, presumably, completely gutted financially and militarily by Stannis.
That leaves the Iron Islands, which are in no position to threaten Kings Landing in a meaningful way; and Dorne...which might well be about to strike.

Mdlbuildr wrote:
At this point, though, no one is there lead the Lannister Army. The realm must know that Tywin is dead and Cersei was imprisoned. The time to strike is now!!!

Kevan is capable, and easily the most capable Lannister left.

 gorgon wrote:

Mdlbuildr wrote:
At this point, though, no one is there lead the Lannister Army. The realm must know that Tywin is dead and Cersei was imprisoned. The time to strike is now!!!

Kevan is capable, and easily the most capable Lannister left.

My prediction for this season:

Here is a good little summary about one of the theories regarding Tyrion:



Edit: to add personal theories:

 d-usa wrote:
Here is a good little summary about one of the theories regarding Tyrion:

Gotta disagree with the first one. Tyrion being the secret love child of papa Targaryen doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I think Gendry has a better chance of being the third dragon because the Baratheon line has some Targaryen in it.

I'm a fan of R+L=J, myself. That one seems obvious.

And, of course, Dani.

The real question is, who's the "prince that was promised"?

 Breotan wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Here is a good little summary about one of the theories regarding Tyrion:

Gotta disagree with the first one. Tyrion being the secret love child of papa Targaryen doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I think Gendry has a better chance of being the third dragon because the Baratheon line has some Targaryen in it.

I'm a fan of R+L=J, myself. That one seems obvious.

And, of course, Dani.

The real question is, who's the "prince that was promised"?

"Promise me Ned, promise me."

Too obvious?

My prediction for this season:

Spoiler:

Jaime, the Tyrells and Cersei (via Robert Strong / undead Gregor Clegane) come to blows with the Sparrows. Many people are killed, its a bloodbath, but ultimately ends in a stalemate. Kevan Lannister arrives on the ordes of Tommen to put things in order, restore peace and order to the city and get Cersei under control. Kevan banishes Jaime from the city, coercing him to go take charge of the Lannister armyin the Riverlands and mop up the few remaining rebellious River Lords while Kevan handles the crisis in Kings Landing. In the interests of maintaining peace, Kevan allows Cersei's trial to go ahead.

Meanwhile, Varys returns with a crossbow...

Hmmm

Cant believe they took Dranarys on another trip to meet another angry group to get her inevitably to convince them to join her and still sit around doing jack gak.
Talk about zzzzzzzzzzzzz

And the Meereen angle is just tedious now.

is this season based off the books at all or have they run out?

 Ratius wrote:
Cant believe they took Dranarys on another trip to meet another angry group to get her inevitably to convince them to join her and still sit around doing jack gak.
Talk about zzzzzzzzzzzzz

And the Meereen angle is just tedious now.

is this season based off the books at all or have they run out?

The books are currently at the end of season 5 (and season 5 was quite significantly different in a few places) and this season is all new stuff.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Cant believe they took Dranarys on another trip to meet another angry group to get her inevitably to convince them to join her and still sit around doing jack gak.
Talk about zzzzzzzzzzzzz

And the Meereen angle is just tedious now.

is this season based off the books at all or have they run out?

The books are currently at the end of season 5 (and season 5 was quite significantly different in a few places) and this season is all new stuff.

If you think the show is drawn out and meandering AVOID the books - they are a thousand times worse

 Mr Morden wrote:
Varis is where he needs to be - sorting out the rebels for Dany, absolutely no reason for him to return with a crossbow just to get back in line with the books............[/spoiler]

No. Vary's schemes to install a Targaryen King or Queen depend on maintaining a state of chaos in the 7 Kingdoms to undermine the noble houses of Westeros and pave the way for a new Targaryen conquest. If someone (i.e. Kevan) manages to repair some of the damage done by Cersei and co. to the Lannister's hold on power (meaning their alliances) and restore a degree of stability to King's Landing, then he'll have every reason to return.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:
Cant believe they took Dranarys on another trip to meet another angry group to get her inevitably to convince them to join her and still sit around doing jack gak.
Talk about zzzzzzzzzzzzz

And the Meereen angle is just tedious now.

is this season based off the books at all or have they run out?

If you think the show's version of Meereen is boring, try reading the books.

Danny's personal storyline has caught up to the books entirely and will definitely over take them this season. But there is a lot of stuff that was cut for previous seasons which may still be used (a Siege of Meereen for instance).

The show has cut out a lot of politics and trust me, nothing of value was lost. Though Tyrion's journey to Meereen was much more interesting in the books.

Exactly!

This thread has reminded me of which Game of Thrones I enjoy most.

In order:

1) The HBO Series
2) The Books
3) The...Interesting Versions that pop up here from time to time!

There are aspects of the show and the books that I love and hate. Unfortunately, there are quite a few aspects of the books that I loved that didn't make it onto the show, and I hate maybe half of the original stuff D&D make up for the show. (i.e. all of Dorne).