Game of Thrones - The Discussion! p 83 season 7 rumours[SPOILERS]

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**Dr. What**

Season 6 is rapidly shaping up to be my favorite.

Lady Mormont was very well done and I half expect her to be one of the 62 men.

Was Sansa's letter to Littlefinger? I'll have to look back tomorrow and see.

Jaime and Bronn were great in this episode, as was the Blackfish. Those armor sets are gorgeous.

Olenna was amazing as always. She's a total spitfire and I think I'd rather have Oldbowl than Bastardbowl or Cleganebowl.

I was surprisingly okay with the Septon Meribald changes, though a bit sad that Ian didn't do the broken man speech. I was really hoping that Cleganebowl wasn't going to be a thing and that he did just find peace though.

EDIT:

Looks like Bronn chokes/cuddles Podrick in the next episode.

**Hulksmash**

Necros wrote:
So I was like, "Oh cool, Ian McShane!"

And then was like, "WTF, Ian McShane..."

Funny. I was like "Someone must have had a small opening in his schedule and wanted to do an episode" the instant I saw him

And yes, this is definitely up there as one of my favorite seasons so far, if not my favorite. All the characters are hitting on all cylinders quite well. The dynamic between Jon, Sansa, and Davos is excellent. I love that Margeary had even her grandma fooled. And Grandma is friggin awesome. I love that lady. Blackfish/Jaime was excellent as I knew it would be. Because of where Jaime has been for the last few seasons we've forgotten the contempt that many men of honor have for him but the Blackfish put it right back in the headlights.

I'm hoping Sansa was writing to her uncle and not to Littlefinger (and judging by the preview she did). I'd hope she wouldn't forgive him for selling her to be raped so soon. I also like that the smaller houses aren't just automatically rallying to Jon and Sansa. And that they showed an encounter that lets people know why that's happening.

Overall an awesome episode that's leading up to some truly crazy last few episodes of the season. There's only like what, 3 or 4 left now?

**stanman**

I was like alright, Ian McShane! then they leave things hanging.

**gorgon**

Hulksmash wrote:
I'd hope she wouldn't forgive him for selling her to be raped so soon. I also like that the smaller houses aren't just automatically rallying to Jon and Sansa. And that they showed an encounter that lets people know why that's happening.

It's interesting...that episode would *seem* to support that there will be no Great Northern Conspiracy in the show. And yet it did establish that a key issue for the Northerners is that there's not a male Stark to put in Winterfell. So I dunno what to think yet.

**Hulksmash**

I'm hoping the Whemblys (sp?) who we haven't seen yet and the Umbers pull a last minute switcheroo.

It is starting to feel like there is no conspiracy in the north which makes me sad but we'll see how it plays out.

**Mr Morden**

gorgon wrote:
Hulksmash wrote:
I'd hope she wouldn't forgive him for selling her to be raped so soon. I also like that the smaller houses aren't just automatically rallying to Jon and Sansa. And that they showed an encounter that lets people know why that's happening.

It's interesting...that episode would *seem* to support that there will be no Great Northern Conspiracy in the show. And yet it did establish that a key issue for the Northerners is that there's not a male Stark to put in Winterfell. So I dunno what to think yet.

Not seen the episode yet but I did say that might be the case earlier - The North (and in fact most of Westros) likes strong male leaders. Women can rule through men but not directly.

Plus people tend to be pragmatic - the North in general likely don't want more war - Ramsey will likely screw things up but he could probably get away with the odd bit of flaying and worse if he does not bother most of the Houses. Then there are thuosands of Wildings wondering about to unsettle people......

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Hulksmash wrote:
I'm hoping the Whemblys (sp?) who we haven't seen yet and the Umbers pull a last minute switcheroo.

It is starting to feel like there is no conspiracy in the north which makes me sad but we'll see how it plays out.

Manderlys

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think Sansas letter was to Littlefinger. She's cashing in the debt he owes her by summoning Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale to fight with Jon and the loyalists.

**Hulksmash**

Whatever

It's been years!

I don't know about the letter. It looked like the same paper was being read by the Blackfish. But maybe she is. Maybe we're going to see the knights of the vale relieve the siege of riverrun before turning north with a combined army.

**ImAGeek**

The ending was such an Ian MacShame.

Good episode, I liked it. I also think Sansa was writing to Littlefinger to get the Knights of the Vale to aid them.

There is (currently, at least) a male Stark - Rickon.

I liked the Blackfish/Jaime interaction. I liked the siege of Riverrun in the book too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:
Whatever It's been years!

I don't know about the letter. It looked like the same paper was being read by the Blackfish. But maybe she is. Maybe we're going to see the knights of the vale relieve the siege of riverrun before turning north with a combined army.

I did think that, but didn't they already send Brienne to Riverrun to talk to the Blackfish? Or have I made that up?

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

This is a really cool theory that gave me a bit of a mind feth: What if the Waif (who attempted to kill Arya in Episode 7) is just a figment of her imagination, representing the "No One" that she is trying to become?

So here are a few things which are interesting about the waif.
She is only seen by either Jaqen H'ghar or by Arya.
She has a very incredible back story, much like Mercy or Cat of the Canals.
She know's what Arya is doing, all the time. She knows when she lies. She can tell where she is.
She tries to force Arya to leave. She makes her insecure.
So here's my theory, get some tinfoil..
The waif is Arya. Arya is suffering from some sort of bi-polar dissociative identity disorder. A case can be made that when Arya came to the House of Black and White, the water that she drank induced this in her. In a way, The Waif is no one. Her only mission is to kill off Arya, the inner Arya, the one who can never be one of them.
This is why Jaqen H'ghar always wants the Waif to leave the room before he begins talking to Arya. He essentially wants Arya to stop behaving in a dual personality manner. He just wants to talk to Arya. So the Waif leaves. Just when Arya is alone, she appears again.
When the waif asks Jaqen H'ghar, "You PROMISED", it's actually Arya. Arya has finally asked to kill her inner self. Al lot of people have observed that Jaqen H'ghar looks a bit pleased with himself when he permits the Waif.

I can see this happening in the show:
Arya and the Waif do battle, and after fighting valiantly, Arya is killed. We are all fething stunned for a few moments (maybe even 30+ minutes if they decide to show other scenes elsewhere).
The Waif goes to Jaqen and announces that Arya Stark is dead. The waif removes her face to reveal that it was Arya all along, and Jaqen asks who a girl is.
A girl replies "No one." - Credits.
Edit: Also, this will probably happen in the episode "No One" instead of the upcoming episode.

Its like a Fantasy version of Fight Club.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

I saw that theory and it don't buy it.

**cincydooley**

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
I saw that theory and it don't buy it.

Agreed.

ANd honestly, I actively dislike that theory...yuck.

**Mr Morden**

Yeah she just knifed the hell out of her - which was a twist.

Good episode

**djones520**

cincydooley wrote:
ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
I saw that theory and it don't buy it.

Agreed.

ANd honestly, I actively dislike that theory...yuck.

I don't know if I'm buying it, but it is plausible in my eyes. It seems to me every time Arya would take the next step in her training, it was after the Waif had the upper hand on her in something. It would also seem to run inline with the head games Jaqen has been playing with her.

The preview of the next episode showed her being very much alive, and I'm just not buying that. Those stab wounds would be very fatal, especially to someone small like her.

**BrotherGecko**

I'm ready for Sandor to accept his fate and become Azor Ahai. I can think of no other character better fitting of becoming that mythic hero in GoT.

**Dr. What**

BrotherGecko wrote:
I'm ready for Sandor to accept his fate and become Azor Ahai. I can think of no other character better fitting of becoming that mythic hero in GoT.

I think you mean Ser Pounce.

**reds8n**

djones520 wrote:
cincydooley wrote:
ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
I saw that theory and it don't buy it.

Agreed.

ANd honestly, I actively dislike that theory...yuck.

I don't know if I'm buying it, but it is plausible in my eyes. It seems to me every time Arya would take the next step in her training, it was after the Waif had the upper hand on her in something. It would also seem to run inline with the head games Jaqen has been playing with her.

The preview of the next episode showed her being very much alive, and I'm just not buying that. Those stab wounds would be very fatal, especially to someone small like her.

I agree entirely.

PLus this also brings a degree more of "magic" into the show, which also makes Arya more of a threat/use now rather than later.

**Mr Morden**

djones520 wrote:
cincydooley wrote:
ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
I saw that theory and it don't buy it.

Agreed.

ANd honestly, I actively dislike that theory...yuck.

I don't know if I'm buying it, but it is plausible in my eyes. It seems to me every time Arya would take the next step in her training, it was after the Waif had the upper hand on her in something. It would also seem to run inline with the head games Jaqen has been playing with her.

The preview of the next episode showed her being very much alive, and I'm just not buying that. Those stab wounds would be very fatal, especially to someone small like her.

Agreed unless magic is involved that looked like mortal wounds.

Honestly I would preferred her heading off to Westros and getting back on the main plot but she was being pretty stupid wondering about if she owned the place.

Ian McShane was good but it was pretty telegraphed that him and his friends were going to be slaughtered by the end of the episode.

Lady Morment was great and worked well with the other House telling Sansa and co to get lost also made sense given that Rob effectively broke his oath to them buy marrying as he choose and not sacrificing (as they were by fighting along side him) - plus the fact that the Boltons had actually fought for them, which was the role of the Starks.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Mr Morden wrote:
Lady Morment was great and worked well with the other House telling Sansa and co to get lost also made sense given that Rob effectively broke his oath to them buy marrying as he choose and not sacrificing (as they were by fighting along side him) - plus the fact that the Boltons had actually fought for them, which was the role of the Starks.

But the Starks did try to help. Bran Stark dispatched the majority of the Winterfell garrison to help the Glover's retake Deepwood Motte. It left Winterfell vulnerable to capture by Theon and his Ironborn.

Robb breaking his marriage oaths is a fair criticism, but "not fighting for the Glovers" is not.

**Hlaine Larkin mk2**

Alpharius wrote:Why would it matter what season it happens in?

Prior to the episode I was just going off the gravedigger stuff from the books

Spoiler:

Ustrello wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Ustrello wrote:
fething confirmed get hyped

And LSH

Was she? I mean besides the

Spoiler:

hanging

I didn't see anything that would point to her being there.

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the episode itself, loved Lady Mormont they really nailed that scene as well as the Blackfish & Jaime's scene (and we finally have the Bronn+Jaime tag team reunited)
Arya should've seen that coming but she continues to refuse to learn anything
And a nice nod the Rains of Castamere in Cersei & Olenna's little chat, after Margery showed how well she's playing the HS & his crew

**Mr Morden**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Lady Morment was great and worked well with the other House telling Sansa and co to get lost also made sense given that Rob effectively broke his oath to them buy marrying as he choose and not sacrificing (as they were by fighting along side him) - plus the fact that the Boltons had actually fought for them, which was the role of the Starks.

But the Starks did try to help. Bran Stark dispatched the majority of the Winterfell garrison to help the Glover's retake Deepwood Motte. It left Winterfell vulnerable to capture by Theon and his Ironborn.

Robb breaking his marriage oaths is a fair criticism, but "not fighting for the Glovers" is not.

Ah right, So do we know what happened to the Winterfell troops - Assuming they lost against the Iron born and were killed or went home to their families when Winterfell fell?

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Mr Morden wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Lady Morment was great and worked well with the other House telling Sansa and co to get lost also made sense given that Rob effectively broke his oath to them buy marrying as he choose and not sacrificing (as they were by fighting along side him) - plus the fact that the Boltons had actually fought for them, which was the role of the Starks.

But the Starks did try to help. Bran Stark dispatched the majority of the Winterfell garrison to help the Glover's retake Deepwood Motte. It left Winterfell vulnerable to capture by Theon and his Ironborn.

Robb breaking his marriage oaths is a fair criticism, but "not fighting for the Glovers" is not.

Ah right, So do we know what happened to the Winterfell troops - Assuming they lost against the Iron born and were killed or went home to their families when Winterfell fell?

Oops, got my facts wrong. On the show (and the books) it was actually Torrhen's Square. Theon besieged and took Torrhen's Square as a feint to draw out the Winterfell garrison, then took Winterfell in the their absence. Rodrik and the Winterfell garrison liberated Torrhen's Square, but were betrayed and murdered by Ramsay and the Bolton forces on their return to Winterfell (in the show, Theon and his Ironborn defeated and captured Rodrik, and Theon executed him).

In the books, Deepwood Motte was actually liberated by Stannis Baratheon who was travelling across the North raising support from Northern houses. Retaking Deepwood Motte won him the loyalty of House Glover.

In the show, they had Stannis march on Winterfell early, before he'd raised any support from Northern lords, and therefore he never retook Deepwood Motte for the Glovers. Instead, the Glovers took it back themselves with the help of the Boltons.

Looks like House Glovers' disloyalty to the Starks on the show is the consequence of fething up the timeline and killing Stannis off early. Its an invention of the show that never happened/ has not yet happened in the books. They're fighting for Stannis in the books, who is still alive and hasn't even marched on Winterfell yet (hes camped outside Winterfell on a frozen lake, trapped in a blizzard).

I think my point still stands though. The House Glover leader on the show is an idiot. The reason why the Starks did not help the Glovers take back their home was because
(A) The bulk of the Stark and northern army was south of the Neck too far away to help and...
(B) The Boltons betrayed the Starks and murdered the few remaining Stark soldiers left in the North.

Robb Stark was actually planning to march north after the Red Wedding and drive all the Ironborn out of the North, but the Bolton's betrayed his family, murdered Robb and massacred the Winterfell garrison.

The Glovers on the show blame the Starks for failing to take action, yet pledged themselves to the traitors (Boltons) whose betrayal stopped the Starks taking action in the first place.

Whats more, they refuse to follow Sansa because she is "no longer a Stark" and is not a male Stark, and yet they know that the last known legitimate male heir to Winterfell, Rickon, is being held captive in Winterfell and its their duty to help rescue him. (disregarding Bran Stark of course, Nobody knows where he is or if he's even still alive. Jon knows that Bran went north of the Wall, but little more).

**Mr Morden**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Lady Morment was great and worked well with the other House telling Sansa and co to get lost also made sense given that Rob effectively broke his oath to them buy marrying as he choose and not sacrificing (as they were by fighting along side him) - plus the fact that the Boltons had actually fought for them, which was the role of the Starks.

But the Starks did try to help. Bran Stark dispatched the majority of the Winterfell garrison to help the Glover's retake Deepwood Motte. It left Winterfell vulnerable to capture by Theon and his Ironborn.

Robb breaking his marriage oaths is a fair criticism, but "not fighting for the Glovers" is not.

Ah right, So do we know what happened to the Winterfell troops - Assuming they lost against the Iron born and were killed or went home to their families when Winterfell fell?

Oops, got my facts wrong. On the show (and the books) it was actually Torrhen's Square. Theon besieged and took Torrhen's Square as a feint to draw out the Winterfell garrison, then took Winterfell in the their absence. Rodrik and the Winterfell garrison liberated Torrhen's Square, but were betrayed and murdered by Ramsay and the Bolton forces on their return to Winterfell (in the show, Theon and his Ironborn defeated and captured Rodrik, and Theon executed him).

In the books, Deepwood Motte was actually liberated by Stannis Baratheon who was travelling across the North raising support from Northern houses. Retaking Deepwood Motte won him the loyalty of House Glover.

In the show, they had Stannis march on Winterfell early, before he'd raised any support from Northern lords, and therefore he never retook Deepwood Motte for the Glovers. Instead, the Glovers took it back themselves with the help of the Boltons.

Looks like House Glovers' disloyalty to the Starks on the show is the consequence of fething up the timeline and killing Stannis off early. Its an invention of the show that never happened/ has not yet happened in the books. They're fighting for Stannis in the books, who is still alive and hasn't even marched on Winterfell yet (hes camped outside Winterfell on a frozen lake, trapped in a blizzard).

I think my point still stands though. The House Glover leader on the show is an idiot. The reason why the Starks did not help the Glovers take back their home was because
(A) The bulk of the Stark and northern army was south of the Neck too far away to help and...
(B) The Boltons betrayed the Starks and murdered the few remaining Stark soldiers left in the North.

Robb Stark was actually planning to march north after the Red Wedding and drive all the Ironborn out of the North, but the Bolton's betrayed his family, murdered Robb and massacred the Winterfell garrison.

The Glovers on the show blame the Starks for failing to take action, yet pledged themselves to the traitors (Boltons) whose betrayal stopped the Starks taking action in the first place.

Whats more, they refuse to follow Sansa because she is "no longer a Stark" and is not a male Stark, and yet they know that the last known legitimate male heir to Winterfell, Rickon, is being held captive in Winterfell and its their duty to help rescue him. (disregarding Bran Stark of course, Nobody knows where he is or if he's even still alive. Jon knows that Bran went north of the Wall, but little more).

ok - Its what I said would happen.

Also we have to step away from our symapthies for the Starks and look at how I think the Glovers (and other Northern houses see it - even the Morments are not far of the same view).

They pledge alligence ot the Wardoen (or King) of the North in exchange for his protection against other houses, any Wildlings and Iron born raids.
The head of House Stark gets involed with political nonsense down South and is executed as a Traitor.
His son rises in rebellion against the King.
He calls upon his banners and they obey - fighting and dying for his cause.
He has his head turned by the first pretty girl he meets and puts her ahead of his cause, breaking his oath.- perhaps the worst thing he can do.
The Red Wedding - more loyal men and women die - not just the Starks,
The Starks are now weak shadow of their formers selves - they can't even protect themselves never mind others, led by a crippled boy who is then reported killed with the only other male hier by the Ironborn
The Boltons rise to power in the vacumn - no one likes them but they do what is needed to get rid of the Iron born - as a proper warden of the North should do
They retake Winterfell from the Ironborn - who were the ones doing the killing and burning there.
Sansa returns North to her old home - having been passed around various marriages - she marries into the Boltons - apparently not against her will and the the two great Houses are united. most will remember her from previous meetings as a spoilt little princess not a woman to lead a great House.
The Nights Watch under a Stark bastard abadon their sworn duty and let the wldlings in
Sansa runs away (yet again) from her latest husband and starts looking for men to fight the Boltons who apparently are doing a reasonbale job - but likely still hated

The Glovers make perfect sense when you look at it as they do?

As the Hound would Say - F$%% the Books

**reds8n**

The note that Margaery gave her Gran ?

Just a reference to her brother, a warning to leave or something else ?

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Its all a moot point anyway. The moment the White Walkers pull their fingers out of their asses and decide the time has come to march south...everyone is fethed. Stark, Bolton, Glover...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote:
The note that Margaery gave her Gran ?

Just a reference to her brother, a warning to leave or something else ?

A reference to House Tyrell's words "Growing Strong". She's sending a covert message that she hasn't given up, and she has a plan. Olenna failed, its up to Margaery now. She's asking her Grandmother to be patient.

**Mr Morden**

I think the note was just saying - "I am fine - playing the game"

Isn't there something about the WW not being able to cross the wall - but that might be broken if Bran who is marked crosses the wall - so kill Bran already.

Also depends if Dany ever crosses the sea with her Dragons or they keep putting plots in the way GRM style. Although her horde might cause nearly as much destruction as the Walkers heading South - but then as the Joker says "You can't make an omlete without breaking a few eggs"

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

I expect the season will end with the Wall falling, and Danny defeating the Slavers once and for all, razing or otherwise abandoning Meereen and embarking her people on the Iron Fleet and departing for Westeros. We're probably not going to see Danny arrive in Westeros this Season.

**Ouze**

djones520 wrote:
The preview of the next episode showed her being very much alive, and I'm just not buying that. Those stab wounds would be very fatal, especially to someone small like her.

Perhaps they will be. This would give them the chance to do Lady Stoneheart, in a way.

**gorgon**

reds8n wrote:
djones520 wrote:
cincydooley wrote:
ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
I saw that theory and it don't buy it.

Agreed.

ANd honestly, I actively dislike that theory...yuck.

I don't know if I'm buying it, but it is plausible in my eyes. It seems to me every time Arya would take the next step in her training, it was after the Waif had the upper hand on her in something. It would also seem to run inline with the head games Jaqen has been playing with her.

The preview of the next episode showed her being very much alive, and I'm just not buying that. Those stab wounds would be very fatal, especially to someone small like her.

I agree entirely.

PLus this also brings a degree more of "magic" into the show, which also makes Arya more of a threat/use now rather than later.

While the show has become very straightforward this season...something felt off with Arya there considering the last time we saw her she was in complete darkness, holed up god-knows-where. And something has been bugging me about the Waif and her interactions with Arya, hence my comments about Arya perhaps holding back during the training. Although I have to admit it could be just because for the show's purposes the Waif only needs to be a 2-D adversary/obstacle for Arya to overcome. Or is she?

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

I think it'll be a cool WTF bait and switch if the Waif does kill Arya, returns to Jaqen to report Arya's "death"...and then removes her mask to reveal that the Waif was Arya all along, and she has finally become No One by "killing" her old identity.

If they/GRRM do intend to have Arya abandon her identity and become No One, I can't think of a better way to do it.