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Crystal-Maze wrote:
To those who are speculating that the Mad King's madness was caused by Bran/the Three Eyed Raven - its an elegant theory.

However, my partner pointed out to me that its overlooking the fact that the mad king ordered for thousands of pots of wildfire to be scattered at key points around King's Landing (really far from the dead, but in a perfect place to blow up his own city) before he started running around openly shouting 'Burn them All.'

I tend to think Aerys was just plain nuts. IIRC, the books (not that they technically hold sway over the show) indicate that his madness crept in.

 gorgon wrote:

Crystal-Maze wrote:
To those who are speculating that the Mad King's madness was caused by Bran/the Three Eyed Raven - its an elegant theory.

However, my partner pointed out to me that its overlooking the fact that the mad king ordered for thousands of pots of wildfire to be scattered at key points around King's Landing (really far from the dead, but in a perfect place to blow up his own city) before he started running around openly shouting 'Burn them All.'

I tend to think Aerys was just plain nuts. IIRC, the books (not that they technically hold sway over the show) indicate that his madness crept in.

Isn't it implied in the show and in the books that madness is kind of a family trait with Targaryens?

I don't particularly care either way, if it ended up that maybe the Three Eyed Raven tried to warn Aerys and it addled him to the point where he thought that he was defending the city from White Walkers I wouldn't protest.

At this point with Max Von Raven dead, we'll probably never know, unless Bran inherits his memories, or does some more memory time travel again.

 gorgon wrote:

Crystal-Maze wrote:
To those who are speculating that the Mad King's madness was caused by Bran/the Three Eyed Raven - its an elegant theory.

However, my partner pointed out to me that its overlooking the fact that the mad king ordered for thousands of pots of wildfire to be scattered at key points around King's Landing (really far from the dead, but in a perfect place to blow up his own city) before he started running around openly shouting 'Burn them All.'

I tend to think Aerys was just plain nuts. IIRC, the books (not that they technically hold sway over the show) indicate that his madness crept in.

IIRC from the books he was always a bit on the insane side until the Duskendale incident which threw his sanity off a cliff

 nels1031 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

Crystal-Maze wrote:
To those who are speculating that the Mad King's madness was caused by Bran/the Three Eyed Raven - its an elegant theory.

However, my partner pointed out to me that its overlooking the fact that the mad king ordered for thousands of pots of wildfire to be scattered at key points around King's Landing (really far from the dead, but in a perfect place to blow up his own city) before he started running around openly shouting 'Burn them All.'

I tend to think Aerys was just plain nuts. IIRC, the books (not that they technically hold sway over the show) indicate that his madness crept in.

Isn't it implied in the show and in the books that madness is kind of a family trait with Targaryens?

The books state that Targaryens are either born brilliant or mad, with dear brother swinging on the mad side of things during season/book 1.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:


The Night's King was the 13th Night's Watch Commander
Aerys the Mad was the King when Robert Rebelled
One died 18 years ago when Jaime stabbed him in the back
The other died so long ago his existence isn't a guarantee & was alleged killed by a coalition between the King in the North & Joramund the King Beyond the Wall



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the "Arya" we see get stabbed didn't have Needle & had completely changed her hair & clothes & even passed a very Arya looking person on the street right before the stabbing

It makes no sense that the Night King would have been a Nights Watch commander. That was a supposition by some in the Nights Watch, but thats like saying the chicken came before the egg. The Nights Watch was formed after the Long Night, which was brought about by the Night King. So how can a man who lived about a century or two after the the end of the Long Night be the one who caused it?

 djones520 wrote:

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:


The Night's King was the 13th Night's Watch Commander
Aerys the Mad was the King when Robert Rebelled
One died 18 years ago when Jaime stabbed him in the back
The other died so long ago his existence isn't a guarantee & was alleged killed by a coalition between the King in the North & Joramund the King Beyond the Wall



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the "Arya" we see get stabbed didn't have Needle & had completely changed her hair & clothes & even passed a very Arya looking person on the street right before the stabbing

It makes no sense that the Night King would have been a Nights Watch commander. That was a supposition by some in the Nights Watch, but thats like saying the chicken came before the egg. The Nights Watch was formed after the Long Night, which was brought about by the Night King. So how can a man who lived about a century or two after the the end of the Long Night be the one who caused it?

Because the show merged two (or possibly three) separate characters for the sake of using a cool name (The Night King) for the current big bad guy leading the White Walkers, creating a plot hole in the process.

GRRM has made clear that the only Night King in the books was the legendary figure believed to have been a Lord Commander that went rogue. He's said, in his usual helpful way, that its extremely "unlikely" that the Night King survived for thousands of years until the present day.

We do not yet know anything about the very first White Walker. This character hasn't even been named. Indeed, we don't even know for sure yet that the Children did actually create the White Walkers.

And we do not yet know anything about the current leader of the White Walkers. This character has not been named yet, hell, we don't even know if they do have a "flesh and blood" leader. They might all take orders direct from the "Great Other" god for all we know, like a hive mind. And we don't know if this guy is the same character as the very first White Walker.

Those are three possible characters.


My view is, they just gave the dude the name of "the Night King" because it was cool and they don't care about and have no intention of addressing the plot hole.

We do know for sure that they created the White Walkers. The children flat out admitted it.

I will admit that the guy in the vision may not be the actual Night King, but it would make the most sense that the first would be the leader. That's typically how these things go in the fantasy setting.

 djones520 wrote:
We do know for sure that they created the White Walkers. The children flat out admitted it.

I will admit that the guy in the vision may not be the actual Night King, but it would make the most sense that the first would be the leader. That's typically how these things go in the fantasy setting.

And they also waxed his chest before

Honestly it's been several seasons already since his "reveal" and I still don't understand the need to have a "white walker leader" at all. Do the showrunners believe the audience can't properly remember an antagonist faction if it's not represented by a concrete, specific face?

Reminder: Book talk in spoiler tags - thanks!

 djones520 wrote:
We do know for sure that they created the White Walkers. The children flat out admitted it.

I was talking about the books. Its not yet been confirmed that the Children created them in the books (though it is very likely - I doubt the showrunners invented it).

I will admit that the guy in the vision may not be the actual Night King, but it would make the most sense that the first would be the leader. That's typically how these things go in the fantasy setting.

Again, I was talking about the books. On the show, the very first White Walker (who we see in the vision being stabbed by Leaf) and the current leader of the White Walkers are one and the same. They're even played by the same actor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Reminder: Book talk in spoiler tags - thanks!

What book talk? The show has already spoiled this.

Things that you "know" from the books?

 Alpharius wrote:
Things that you "know" from the books?

I'm specifically talking about things we don't know in the books.

Fantastic - you're also talking about things you "don't know BECAUSE you've read the books", or read it in an interview with the author.

It isn't difficult - Just put it in SPOILER TAGS. There's even a button that does all the hard work for you.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Things that you "know" from the books?

I'm specifically talking about things we don't know in the books.

Well...



At least that is what I think Alpharius is referring to.

Edit: sneaky Alpha Legion...

I'm sorry, but I don't know what you're complaining about here? Not only do we have to spoiler tag events in the books that haven't occurred yet on the show, we have to use a spoiler tag when we point out something that has happened on the show but not in the books? What exactly is being spoiled here?

One TV viewer pointed out that the Night King (show) being the first White Walker, and the 13th Lord Commander didn't make sense. I explained that its because the showrunners have decided to either merge as many as three possible seperate characters in the book or simply appropriated a name from the book and created a plot hole. Or maybe the showrunners didn't merge anything, perhaps they really are all the same character. We literally do not know.

What is the spoiler here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:



Why? Book readers only know what show viewers know - the legend. We don't know anything more than the show has already spoiled. There is literally nothing that we can tell you that hasn't already been aired on the show. Hell, Old Nan told the Legend to Bran.

There is no spoiler here - we don't know anything.

Why do I need to use a spoiler tag when talking about something that you already know?

The spoiler tags are not for people who are watching the show, regardless of whether they have read the books or not.

The spoiler tags are for people that have never read the books, which are many.

Also: Purposefully removing the spoiler tags accomplishes what exactly?

I didn't purposefully remove it. I copied and pasted a single paragraph into a quote and neglected to c&p the spoiler tags. I've corrected it.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I didn't purposefully remove it. I copied and pasted a single paragraph into a quote and neglected to c&p the spoiler tags. I've corrected it.

Fair enough I thought you were trying to make a point with that, so my bad.

Theres literally nothing I can tell you (meaning, show viewers) that you don't already know. In fact, if I wasn't watching the show too you'd know more than me by this point.

Yeah, the book floated a theory about the origin of the white walkers that has now been superseded by the show. At this point, the show is spoiling the books, not vice versa. I don't think it's possible for the books to spoil the show anymore, there are no plotlines I immediately think of offhand that aren't now ahead on the show.

So far as spoiling the books, the last one was published 5 years ago. I'm not sure how long the window is where it's a dick move to spoil someone is, but it's definitely not 5 years.

The Greyjoy stuff is a little bit ahead in the book, but it's also a bit different.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Greyjoy stuff is a little bit ahead in the book, but it's also a bit different.

Technically, its already caught up to the latest book. What little we know stems from sample chapters from the next book that GRRM has released. There's the introduction of Darkflame I suppose but it looks like he's either been cut or replaced with Kinvara.

 Ouze wrote:
Yeah, the book floated a theory about the origin of the white walkers that has now been superseded by the show. At this point, the show is spoiling the books, not vice versa. I don't think it's possible for the books to spoil the show anymore, there are no plotlines I immediately think of offhand that aren't now ahead on the show.

Honestly, at this point I'm not sure how much Martin really told them, or how much the showrunners feel obligated to stick with what Martin told them. It feels like the show is doing its own thing, with the NK being a prime example. The pace and straightforwardness(?) of this season doesn't feel like Martin at all. Martin seems almost allergic to giving readers exactly what they expect, while the show has been very by-the-numbers (which isn't a criticism, mind you).

 gorgon wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Yeah, the book floated a theory about the origin of the white walkers that has now been superseded by the show. At this point, the show is spoiling the books, not vice versa. I don't think it's possible for the books to spoil the show anymore, there are no plotlines I immediately think of offhand that aren't now ahead on the show.

Honestly, at this point I'm not sure how much Martin really told them, or how much the showrunners feel obligated to stick with what Martin told them. It feels like the show is doing its own thing, with the NK being a prime example. The pace and straightforwardness(?) of this season doesn't feel like Martin at all. Martin seems almost allergic to giving readers exactly what they expect, while the show has been very by-the-numbers (which isn't a criticism, mind you).

Tricky to know - They have brought back a few "book" plots recently - likely there is some give and take on both sides?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Yeah, the book floated a theory about the origin of the white walkers that has now been superseded by the show. At this point, the show is spoiling the books, not vice versa. I don't think it's possible for the books to spoil the show anymore, there are no plotlines I immediately think of offhand that aren't now ahead on the show.

Honestly, at this point I'm not sure how much Martin really told them, or how much the showrunners feel obligated to stick with what Martin told them. It feels like the show is doing its own thing, with the NK being a prime example. The pace and straightforwardness(?) of this season doesn't feel like Martin at all. Martin seems almost allergic to giving readers exactly what they expect, while the show has been very by-the-numbers (which isn't a criticism, mind you).

Tricky to know - They have brought back a few "book" plots recently - likely there is some give and take on both sides?

Possibly.

The question of the Waif figures here too. The Waif as presented in the show makes for a fairly terrible senior student of the FM, doesn't she? We see her act emotionally, vindictively, and spitefully. She's nothing like Jaqen H'Ghar or the FM ideals as presented by JH. I don't remember the Waif behaving that way in the books, and I think Martin has too good of a handle on his characters for that to be an accident if things head that way in the books to come.

This would seem to be a big flashing sign indicating a big twist on the way. But you also can't rule out that the show Waif has been presented that way by the showrunners because it's good for TV audiences, giving Arya a rival, raising the stakes, and making us root for her all the harder, sense be darned.

I can't remember the waif from the books at all but I skipped a lot of stuff in them.

I thought she was pretty good trainer in the old fashioned military style - the Show only has one person talking about the FM cult, its methods and ideals and its not at all clear how it operates, but then it does not have to be I guess, just that it does.

Another aspect of Arya's personality could be the way they go - it needs something drastic for her to survive that stabbing - I did think that at least the waif just got on with it like a real killer - no speeches, no taunts - just stabbing.

I actually thought this season whilst getting on with stuff in a way that's an total anathema to GRM it had a lot of his tendency to revisit forgotten plots and bring back people that did not seem relevant.

 Mr Morden wrote:


I actually thought this season whilst getting on with stuff in a way that's an total anathema to GRM it had a lot of his tendency to revisit forgotten plots and bring back people that did not seem relevant.

That's an interesting take on this season.......................what irrelevant 'forgotten plots' and 'people' do you feel have returned this season?

 Alpharius wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


I actually thought this season whilst getting on with stuff in a way that's an total anathema to GRM it had a lot of his tendency to revisit forgotten plots and bring back people that did not seem relevant.

That's an interesting take on this season.......................what irrelevant 'forgotten plots' and 'people' do you feel have returned this season?

I separated the two.

Forgotten - the whole Frey plotline had been ignored until now, it was a surprise to see it back, not a bad thing, just a surprise -
same with uncle Stark up north beyond the wall, the Hound was another element that seemed to have been finished.

Irrelevant - well the whole "Fat Sam visits his family" wasted a 15 mins. Its not like the books where GRM just keeps inventing new characters to avoid progressing the plot in any way.

Well, one of the other theories out there is that the stabbed Arya was JH. The FM obviously don't have Arya's face, but then that didn't seem to be an issue at the end of last season, and it seems clear that magic is involved anyway.

The showrunner's inclusion of the Iron Islands stuff is interesting. They've pared most of it away and done some character combining (Euron and Victarion) and culling. And in fact it doesn't look like show Euron is even important yet, as the focus seems to be on Yara and Theon right now.

Still, its inclusion suggests that it's important down the road. Perhaps Theon and Yara will return to Westeros with Daenerys in tow, but..

 gorgon wrote:
Well, one of the other theories out there is that the stabbed Arya was JH. The FM obviously don't have Arya's face, but then that didn't seem to be an issue at the end of last season, and it seems clear that magic is involved anyway.

The showrunner's inclusion of the Iron Islands stuff is interesting. They've pared most of it away and done some character combining (Euron and Victarion) and culling. And in fact it doesn't look like show Euron is even important yet, as the focus seems to be on Yara and Theon right now.

Still, its inclusion suggests that it's important down the road. Perhaps Theon and Yara will return to Westeros with Daenerys in tow, but..

Spoiler:

...be met with Euron bearing a certain horn, complicating matters quite a bit?

Well now both factions of the Ironborn are supposed to be seeking an alliance with Dany. I guess they could do the same with Dorne if they still want to use it?

Dany leading a invasion of Westros with the Ironborn,Dothraki and Dornish would be extremely bloody - especially if the Lord of Light fanatics are with them - she could very easily turn into the main bad guy!

In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!"

Arya is def a wait and see what they do - lots of options for them I guess.