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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The only way in which it has surpassed the books is in pacing, cutting out the pointless meandering and time wasting. The show is actually willing to get things done and advance the storyline. Now that the show has ran out of tracks for its railroad, the writing is becoming very dire. Many sequences/events in the books are just...better.

Dorne was far more interesting and better written.
There were no lines about "Bad pussy".
The Faceless Men were larger than just two people, actually made sense and were a truly menacing organisation.
There was no Tyrion-Jaime conversation in a black cell about their dim wit cousin smashing beetles.
The Blackfish wasn't an idiot, and chose to escape rather than die pointlessly.
Jon and the Wildlings travelled by ship to the docks at East watch. They didn't inexplicably walk inland nort of the wall to the gate at castle black.
The Kingsmoot made sense. Enron didn't just show up, made some jokes about penises and win the crowd.
There was no Meeren Comedy Club.

we don't actually know which bits are showrunner and which bits are GRM - or do you? There have been quite a few plots that have realigned or at least put the characters in the same place with the books this season so maybe more GRm than we think?

eg we now have Varis heading back to Westros - likely cos he is "supposed to be there" despite it being much more interesting to have in Mereem

IMO of course but

Dorne - agreed
It soldiers humour - it fitted fine with the context.
Faceless Men - just seemed a plot device and to give Arya a plot in both book and show.
That was fine - both Jamie and Cersei are much much more developed and interesting characters than in the books - Jamie's conversation's this week were some of the highlights
Blackfish - minor character and job done - if he had fled (again) they would have pursued - he sacrificed himself to help Brienne and her squire escape - made perfect sense.
Kingsmoot - seemed fine for the character of the Iron Born, he was a male, proven fighter and ha got rid of the old leader - what is the issue - likely he had sorted support before the moot and that was just a show.
Meeren comedy club - I assume you don't like the dialogue between Tyrion and co - which for some of us is one of the highlights =- IMO Everything in the Meeren storyline is better and actually makes sense but most importantly gets on with it.

As you say we miss out on the endless meandering, minor characters and timewasting in the books - thank the gods!

Also:

No

The portrayals of the characters in the show are either brilliant captures of the book characters (The Starks, Margery) or very often surpass them (Queen of Thornes, Varis, Tyrion, Bron, Cersei, Hound, High Septon), The casting has been exceptional - well except for Dorne.

Even the ones I hate like Fat Sam are done well

 reds8n wrote:
.. Frankly all the various Arya theories were better than what we got.

Yes, this was disappointing. I liked the fan theories better than "reality". I guess she was that naive to walk around opening, toss money around openly, in a large city full of assassins from a guild you just pissed off.

Anyway, I have enjoyed this season more than 4 or 5. The pacing is better, gak is happening.

My only complaint is the reduction in the Game of Boobs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Even the ones I hate like Fat Sam are done well

I hope Fat Sam wins the Game of Thrones! King Tons of Fun!

Agreed with pretty much all of what you said here Mr Morden. But I thought Pedro Pascal as Oberyn Martell was a brilliant casting choice for the Dorne folks.

 Mr Morden wrote:

eg we now have Varys heading back to Westeros - likely cos he is "supposed to be there" despite it being much more interesting to have in Meereen

I'm fairly certain that Varys is SPOILER ALERT

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Agreed with pretty much all of what you said here Mr Morden. But I thought Pedro Pascal as Oberyn Martell was a brilliant casting choice for the Dorne folks.

Sorry yes - quite right - he was excellent!

in fact many of the Dorne cast were actually good but the ploting and sctript and most especialy weapon training for the girls let them down.

 Mr Morden wrote:
we don't actually know which bits are showrunner and which bits are GRM - or do you? There have been quite a few plots that have realigned or at least put the characters in the same place with the books this season so maybe more GRm than we think?

We do actually, in a lot of cases.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1], the following are spoilers for anyone that hasn't yet read the books, but these will not spoil future episodes of the show because its already done them or skipped them entirely].

It soldiers humour - it fitted fine with the context.

The Sand Snakes are not soldiers, they're upper class noble bastards.

Faceless Men - just seemed a plot device and to give Arya a plot in both book and show.

Except they were done far better in the books.

That was fine - both Jamie and Cersei are much much more developed and interesting characters than in the books - Jamie's conversation's this week were some of the highlights

The portrayals of the characters in the show are either brilliant captures of the book characters (The Starks, Margery) or very often surpass them (Queen of Thornes, Varis, Tyrion, Bron, Cersei, Hound, High Septon), The casting has been exceptional - well except for Dorne.

Cersei, maybe. Jaime? No!.

Jaime is the glaring exception. Jaime was supposed to be on a redemptive arc, he's become estranged from Cersei as he's began to acknowledge how destructive their relationship is and he's having an existential crisis, having resolved to try and become the honourable Knight he's always wanted to be. He's not fighting for Cersei, he's doing his duty. The show has thrown away the last 5 Seasons of character development. He isn't the same Jaime that confessed to Brienne in the baths of Harrenhal that he killed King Aerys to stop him burning Kings Landing, he's completely regressed back to the Season 1 Jaime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lukfBpaB-Q0&feature=youtu.be&t=1624

Kingsmoot - seemed fine for the character of the Iron Born, he was a male, proven fighter and ha got rid of the old leader - what is the issue - likely he had sorted support before the moot and that was just a show.

The Euron of the show has zero charisma. If you've read the books, you should know he's much more interesting than on the show.

Meeren comedy club - I assume you don't like the dialogue between Tyrion and co - which for some of us is one of the highlights =- IMO Everything in the Meeren storyline is better and actually makes sense but most importantly gets on with it.

The storyline is better, but the writing is dire. D&D cannot write Tyrion properly without material to draw on.

No LSH and other characters introduced which people get excited about and forgotten for books on end whilst GRm finds some nobody who washes dishes or whatever to witter on about.

Lady Stoneheart going AWOL for several books is a problem unique to the books. We only see LSH when a POV character meets her directly, and, as there were no POV characters in her vicinity for a long time, we didn't get to see her. The show doesn't have that problem - they could have easily shown a handful of scenes every season showing the brotherhood ambushing Frey soldiers and hanging captives. And now, with the Hound possibly joining the Brotherhood, it looks like we're going to get the LSH storyline anyway, but without LSH. Whats the point?

No hordes of male Targaryian's suddenly appearing and defeating part of the whole point of Dany's character and story.

Granted, but a side effect is that D&D tossed away a huge amount of material leaving nothing to draw on, and they now have to write things themselves which they largely suck at. Dorne is certainly no improvement on the books, Aegon or no Aegon.

We do actually, in a lot of cases.

Sorry what i mean was a number of elements of the show plot have now come back to the book plot - I know most of the current differences but handy ot have them listed

eg:

The Sand Snakes are not soldiers, they're upper class noble bastards.

Sorry I thought you meant the pussy joke in last episode. Agreed Show Dorne was badly written

Except they were done far better in the books.

I'll take your word for it - I was underwhlemed by them so can;t really recall.

ersei, maybe. Jaime? No!.

Jaime is the glaring exception. Jaime was supposed to be on a redemptive arc, he's become estranged from Cersei as he's began to acknowledge how destructive their relationship is and he's having an existential crisis, having resolved to try and become the honourable Knight he's always wanted to be. He's not fighting for Cersei, he's doing his duty. The show has thrown away the last 5 Seasons of character development. He isn't the same Jaime that confessed to Brienne in the baths of Harrenhal that he killed King Aerys to stop him burning Kings Landing, he's completely regressed back to the Season 1 Jaime.

No see this I do disagree with - Jamie is (to me) much more interesting - I think the Jamie /Cersei relationship is much better explored (except for that stupid rape scene of course) - and he is different to the Season 1 character - he might still do questionable things but he doesn't do it cos its fun like Ramsey - he is trying to do the right thing but its a nasty world - I thought the meeting with Caitlyns brother was brilliant - and of course he then saved hundred maybe thousands of lives with his solution...........Thats the problem with people the Ned and Blackfish - an awful lot of other people die so they can uphold their precious honour. Jamie has just seen his rather sweet daughter die in front of him, his lover is threatened with "more bad things" and he can't do anything about either.

The Brienne / Jamie story is nicely played - and Brons comentary on it was fun.

Euron - well he seemed to be exactly what a bunch of "Viking- Cthuhu cultists needed - Violent, plain speaking and strong. Can;t see any issues there

The storyline is better, but the writing is dire. D&D cannot write Tyrion properly without material to draw on.

Again disagree - the bit with Grey Worm and Misandre was fun and very Tyrion - same with him trying to sort out stuff with the masters and Red Priestess. Its certainly better than the books



LSH - I would argue would not have added to the story - she is very cool but GRM never bothered to do anything with her and I think that having the Red Wedding finish her story made sense - plus I understood the actress did not want to come back.

I don't think anyone thought that Dorne was done well, but I would argue that everywhere else was - especially when compared to that last two books which were IMO dismal failures in terms of plot and characterisation, so overall still stand by that the show has surpassed the books as the books are on a downward spiral whereas the show isn't.

A pretty good writeup of last episode. Language.

Also, although I complained about how this was a weak episode, and it was... as Scooty said earlier even the weak episodes are the best thing on TV right now, and the high point of my week.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:


I'm fairly certain that Varys is SPOILER ALERT

Spoiler:

Off get his little birds to help him kill Kevan Lannister and rock the boat a good bit in King's Landing to make way for Dany

Isn't he

Spoiler:

actually preparing the way for the new Targaryian guy that GRM conjured up to screw up the story even more - so he may end up in the same place doing the same thing but for a different ruler?

Possibly, but then as has been said they seem to have snipped that lot

Spoiler:

and kept just the one Targaryen so as not to confuse folks watching the show.

. But I'm fairly certain that they'll keep the purpose of Varys' trip to Westeros true to the books.

I also think that Cersei is going to get the pyromancers to burn the Sept of Baelor to the ground with the High Sparrow and all his minions locked in for this trial she's meant to go to. I refuse to believe Tyrion used ALL of the wildfire at Blackwater Bay.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I refuse to believe Tyrion used ALL of the wildfire at Blackwater Bay.

He didn't. The one cache that Tyrion visited with the Pyromancer and Bronne in Season 2 was massive, easily enough to fill the hold of one ship. And there are dozens of caches hidden all across King's Landing.

https://youtu.be/0gaOlGXBVIo?t=120

 Alpharius wrote:
I know, right?

Still rather disappointing, and one of the more egregious examples of it as of late, I think?

I'm the guy who's been saying that the showrunners are writing things in a very simplistic, linear fashion for general audiences, and even I got suckered into thinking there was something more to the Arya storyline.

We should probably all just stop theorizing and such...the show is almost entirely WYSIWYG at this point.

edit: I think it's a shame they felt the need to reverse Jaime's redemption arc. And I think the King's Landing storyline is failing for me just because there's no one to root for. They've bizarrely tried to make us sympathetic to Cersei and it just isn't working IMO. Mostly because she's a terrible, terrible person. I feel ready to welcome our new crazed zealot overlords...?

 gorgon wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I know, right?

Still rather disappointing, and one of the more egregious examples of it as of late, I think?

I'm the guy who's been saying that the showrunners are writing things in a very simplistic, linear fashion for general audiences, and even I got suckered into thinking there was something more to the Arya storyline.

We should probably all just stop theorizing and such...the show is almost entirely WYSIWYG at this point.

edit: I think it's a shame they felt the need to reverse Jaime's redemption arc. And I think the King's Landing storyline is failing for me just because there's no one to root for. They've bizarrely tried to make us sympathetic to Cersei and it just isn't working IMO. Mostly because she's a terrible, terrible person. I feel ready to welcome our new crazed zealot overlords...?

Not sure why people think Jamie is no longer trying to be a better guy - these days he is often the least worst character. He did nothing bad in the last episode - so whats the issue? yeah he threatened to chuck a guys kid over the wall but thats pretty standard stuff for medieval nobles and rulers. William Marshall no less got tied to a trebuchet as a kid as a threat to his dad who just said

"I have the tools to make another son"

He treated Caitlyns brother well otherwise, sorted out the whole thing with no bloodshed.....

They are just lucky Ramsey was not asked to sort it out.........he would have sent the kid over the wall - in pieces.

I think they have made Cersei more human - she is an unpleasent piece of work - as the Queen of Thorns expressed beautifully but we can see why she does stuff. Plus thats the world they live in.

Nobody is nice - well except for people like Marcella and her betroved or the small folk building th Sept- and look what happened to them.

Rooting for in Kings Landing - Margery - although her king is an idiot - plus who does not want to see the Mountain rampaging through the Faith Militant

Maybe Arya's story is what will happen in the book - she is one of his favs so might have more say on what happens.

Next Stop the North - Ramsey defeats the rebels and prepares to a face the undead with a crooked smile (well probably not but I'd read the alt universe story)

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I refuse to believe Tyrion used ALL of the wildfire at Blackwater Bay.

He didn't. The one cache that Tyrion visited with the Pyromancer and Bronne in Season 2 was massive, easily enough to fill the hold of one ship. And there are dozens of caches hidden all across King's Landing.

https://youtu.be/0gaOlGXBVIo?t=120

Also, assuming the series and books were more in line at that point. They still hadn't found all of the stashes. And they stuff was becoming much easier to produce as well because the world was getting more magical.

Yes, on the show, the Pyromancer says they've been working "day and night" manufacturing wildfire for Queen Cersei. So its not just the old caches left over from the reign of the Mad King, they've been adding to those caches.

Theres enough wildfire for King's Landing to go nuclear.

And, its an obvious guess, but I think thats how the Red Keep will end up being burned down, as Daenerys saw in her House of the Undying dream. I expect it'll be the season finale. That, and the White Walkers finally march south and attack the Wall.

 Ouze wrote:
A pretty good writeup of last episode. Language.

Also, although I complained about how this was a weak episode, and it was... as Scooty said earlier even the weak episodes are the best thing on TV right now, and the high point of my week.

That review was great...

"God, it must have been excruciating for [Brienne] to walk out of that tent. She adores [Jaime]. But her honor comes first to her and Jaime’s loyalty to his family comes first for him. Even though his family is little more than a duffle bag full of cocks."

Heres a new theory suggesting that Sansa is plotting to screw over both Littlefinger and Ramsay by tricking them into fighting each other so she and Jon can mop up the survivors, or at least even the odds with a reduced Bolton army. The idea is that she sent Brienne in person to Riverrun because she didn't want a raven to be intercepted by Ramsay, but she's sending a Raven anyway to Littlefinger.

I want to believe it, but after the Arya debacle I think we can safely attribute the logical inconsistency of sending Brienne instead of a Raven but sending a Raven to Littlefinger down to yet more bad writing.




http://www.unilad.co.uk/tv/sansa-stark-set-to-become-badass-according-to-this-new-fan-theory/

I wonder when some fans will tire of just reading too much into certain things and trying to find some "great plan" behind obvious inconsistent and below-average writing.

As a positive note, Rory McCann I've missed you.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Heres a new theory suggesting that Sansa is plotting to screw over both Littlefinger and Ramsay by tricking them into fighting each other so she and Jon can mop up the survivors, or at least even the odds with a reduced Bolton army. The idea is that she sent Brienne in person to Riverrun because she didn't want a raven to be intercepted by Ramsay, but she's sending a Raven anyway to Littlefinger.

I want to believe it, but after the Arya debacle I think we can safely attribute the logical inconsistency of sending Brienne instead of a Raven but sending a Raven to Littlefinger down to yet more bad writing.

Spoiler:

http://www.unilad.co.uk/tv/sansa-stark-set-to-become-badass-according-to-this-new-fan-theory/

Of course it could be that Sansa is trying to work out what to do on the fly, makes mistakes and is not some teenage Napoleon - I would rather that characters were shown making mistakes and having to deal with it than the war than it was a RTS where the generals know exactly where everyone is and we can click on units and allies to tell them what to do.

I think Sansa assumed that as a Stark she would be able to call upon hundreds perhaps thousands of loyal allies but Robs failure and the loss of warriors means that they are few and far between if they even want to side with her. She is now panicking a bit - especially at the prospect of Ramsey getting hold of her again.

Wars are often won and lost by mistakes not the brilliance of generals.

Given how the viewers consistently seem to be reading more into the show than is actually there, and that 'we' don't know (for certain) who she sent the raven to, I think Sansa is just counting on the forces of the Vale being her 'ace in the hole' to help turn the tide of the battle in her favor.

 Alpharius wrote:
Given how the viewers consistently seem to be reading more into the show than is actually there, and that 'we' don't know (for certain) who she sent the raven to, I think Sansa is just counting on the forces of the Vale being her 'ace in the hole' to help turn the tide of the battle in her favor.

I hope the Knights of the Vale show up as it looked rather grim for Jon and Sansa in the preview of next week's episode. From what they showed it looks like the wildlings and the Giant get stuck in with Bolton's army but the greater discipline of Bolton's troops starts to overwhelm them. For the Starks' sake hopefully it's a ploy to use the Wildlings to get Ramsay to advance his troops and open them up to get hit in the flank by a surprise charge of Vale Knights that crush them and give WInterfell back to the Starks. Otherwise it looks like Jon and Sansa are in for a tough time. I'm sure the battle scene will look really cool but it would be disappointing if it played out in such a cliched way.

Theres a point in the trailer when you can see three mounted figures in the background of the battle silhouetted on a distant ridge. The internet is suggesting it could be the Night King and his White Walkers observing the battle. But its probably just Sansa and her companions.

Prestor Jon wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Given how the viewers consistently seem to be reading more into the show than is actually there, and that 'we' don't know (for certain) who she sent the raven to, I think Sansa is just counting on the forces of the Vale being her 'ace in the hole' to help turn the tide of the battle in her favor.

I hope the Knights of the Vale show up as it looked rather grim for Jon and Sansa in the preview of next week's episode. From what they showed it looks like the wildlings and the Giant get stuck in with Bolton's army but the greater discipline of Bolton's troops starts to overwhelm them. For the Starks' sake hopefully it's a ploy to use the Wildlings to get Ramsay to advance his troops and open them up to get hit in the flank by a surprise charge of Vale Knights that crush them and give WInterfell back to the Starks. Otherwise it looks like Jon and Sansa are in for a tough time. I'm sure the battle scene will look really cool but it would be disappointing if it played out in such a cliched way.

That's what I was thinking as well...

...and that's probably (!) the most likely outcome.

It was already leaked by some extras that took part in the battle scenes, that things begin to go south for the "Starks" and when they're getting desperate enough the Vale army shows up and saves the day. I also read something about Yon Snou beating Ramsay Sue in close combat but stopping just before killing him because he wanted Sandra to be the one who decides his fate.

Sandra Stark? Have you been watching Preston Jacobs too or is that just a typo?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sandra Stark? Have you been watching Preston Jacobs too or is that just a typo?

Lady Mormont said it, not me

Prestor Jon wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Given how the viewers consistently seem to be reading more into the show than is actually there, and that 'we' don't know (for certain) who she sent the raven to, I think Sansa is just counting on the forces of the Vale being her 'ace in the hole' to help turn the tide of the battle in her favor.

I hope the Knights of the Vale show up as it looked rather grim for Jon and Sansa in the preview of next week's episode. From what they showed it looks like the wildlings and the Giant get stuck in with Bolton's army but the greater discipline of Bolton's troops starts to overwhelm them. For the Starks' sake hopefully it's a ploy to use the Wildlings to get Ramsay to advance his troops and open them up to get hit in the flank by a surprise charge of Vale Knights that crush them and give WInterfell back to the Starks. Otherwise it looks like Jon and Sansa are in for a tough time. I'm sure the battle scene will look really cool but it would be disappointing if it played out in such a cliched way.

Its the most likely outcome but not certain.

Littlefinger would then be a strong position again. I think Ramsey will loose but hope he either goes down fighting (and with a smile) or escapes as he is a great bad guy.

I can't see them letting Jon Snow loose yet another battle - he'd be worse than Stannis!

 Korinov wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sandra Stark? Have you been watching Preston Jacobs too or is that just a typo?

Lady Mormont said it, not me

Oh yeah.

Ramsay has become a tiresome, mustache-twirling caricature of a villain.

I hope Sunday sees the last of him!

 Alpharius wrote:
Ramsay has become a tiresome, mustache-twirling caricature of a villain.

I hope Sunday sees the last of him!

Ahem to that. However, at this point I'm inclined to believe that they'll keep Ramsay around -- in some clichéd fashion -- because they think he's a villain we "love to hate." Instead of being one that we just consider tiresome.

 gorgon wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Ramsay has become a tiresome, mustache-twirling caricature of a villain.

I hope Sunday sees the last of him!

Ahem to that. However, at this point I'm inclined to believe that they'll keep Ramsay around -- in some clichéd fashion -- because they think he's a villain we "love to hate." Instead of being one that we just consider tiresome.

One mans tiresome is anothers bright point in the show and vice versa it seems.

 gorgon wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Ramsay has become a tiresome, mustache-twirling caricature of a villain.

I hope Sunday sees the last of him!

Ahem to that. However, at this point I'm inclined to believe that they'll keep Ramsay around -- in some clichéd fashion -- because they think he's a villain we "love to hate." Instead of being one that we just consider tiresome.

Gonna say, Joffrey lasted 3 seasons before we saw the last of him. Although... Ramsay is just about at that point now lol. Who knows..