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The lord who refused to join up in the other episode's going to be a little embarrassed next week, I'm guessing.

I was a little sad about the giant, wasn't he supposed to be the last one in the world ever? I actually didn't expect him to last as long as he did though, I thought he was gonna rush in and smash a few folks and then get speared and lanced to death pretty quick.

 Necros wrote:
I was a little sad about the giant, wasn't he supposed to be the last one in the world ever? I actually didn't expect him to last as long as he did though, I thought he was gonna rush in and smash a few folks and then get speared and lanced to death pretty quick.

Bit of a lonely life if you are the last giant I guess.

I don't think Littlefinger is much of a problem, a union between the Vale and the North again seems to be the point of all of this. He won't so much say "hey I have, like, 2000 knights. Soooo I'll be taking Winterfell" More likely he will try and setup a marriage with Sansa.

The main issue I think is that I don't see John surviving next episode. So long as he lives he could pose a threat to Sansa's potential rule and I believe that is something Littlefinger knows as well.

While the plot was predictable, I think the episode was fantastic. Enough tension at points that you don't feel like it will go the way you think. I almost couldn't breath when the men where being trampled and suffocated. They really messed up, Sansa was totally right.

Ramsey's end was great. I'm quite glad we didn't see it all, and I'm not that squeamish a person.

I don't think Jon would get in the way of Sansa ruling, in fact I get the idea it's a job he wouldn't want to have at all. Kinda like Theon saying his sister is the better choice too. I think Jon is gonna end up being the general of all of the armies of the north and lead the fight against the walkers who will probably swarm all over the wall at the end of the season or be just about to

Jon is no threat at all to Sansa's rule. He is still technically a bastard after all - he rejected Stannis' offer of legitimisation, and even if he had, Stannis' authority to legitimise him was debatable...



Either way, Sansa's rule is secure. She should be more worried about Bran coming home, as he's the Stark with the strongest claim to Winterfel and the North.

 pretre wrote:
The lord who refused to join up in the other episode's going to be a little embarrassed next week, I'm guessing.

Why would he be?

His house is still intact, he will be a powerbroker as he actually has fighting men they need, probably gain lands and power out it. As long as the Starks now hold to their vows he will do the same I expect - it was pretty stanard in medieval times for nobles to hedge their bets and switch sides.

They will need him more than he needs them.

The main issue I think is that I don't see John surviving next episode

Nah he is made of plot shields

The real quesiton is how much has this latest little spat between noble Houses weakened whats left of the Norths martial strength?

If there is to be a marriage between Winterfell and the Vale, I would think that it would be more likely to be between the young lord and Sansa than with Littlefinger.

I don't think Sansa would tolerate being married to that spoiled brat, she'd probably chuck him out the moon door. I know I would.

I am hoping Littlefinger is killed or eaten by ghost.

That's was an utterly ridiculous battle; from the inexplicably huge mounds of corpses to Jon's plot armour to Ramsey killing of the prime of his army with his own bowmen to the Wildlings idly standing by while the Boltons marched around them.

Meh, I would have much preferred to have the battle off screen and to have concentrated on the storming of Winterfell.

The rest of the episode was pretty predictable to be honest.

 d-usa wrote:
If there is to be a marriage between Winterfell and the Vale, I would think that it would be more likely to be between the young lord and Sansa than with Littlefinger.

But... they're cousins...

 Necros wrote:
I don't think Sansa would tolerate being married to that spoiled brat, she'd probably chuck him out the moon door. I know I would.

I think she has grown up enough to realize the reality of marrying for politics first and knows that she could do much worse than the prince, just look at her history:

- Engaged to Joffrey and was able to witness just how horrible he was. This served as her lesson that "marry your sweetheart prince, become queen, and live the happy life" is a fantasy and nothing else.
- Married to Tyrion, which despite her immaturity and loathing of the Imp turned out to be her best marriage to date. Also, isn't she technically still married to him in the grand scheme of things?
- Married to Ramsey, where she was raped and tortured on a regular basis.

She can, and has, done much worse than a spoiled brat that she already backhanded once.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
If there is to be a marriage between Winterfell and the Vale, I would think that it would be more likely to be between the young lord and Sansa than with Littlefinger.

But... they're cousins...

Better than siblings

Well unless Sansa employs some of the things she's learned...I mean the Robin Arryn is easy to manipulate after all. Littlefinger is the real power there, Sansa has two choices really.

1) Marry Robin and then whisper "Hey want to know what Littlefinger did to your mother?" and basically control the North and the Vale

2) Marry Littlefinger to cement the Alliance and secure the North.


R+L=J is mostly likely going to be revealed next episode (although unless Bran can get to John to tell him it's not all that important right now). I know John doesn't have all that much of a claim but he did just fight and take back Winterfell. I imagine he has quite a bit of support even if he doesn't have that strong a claim and, really, that's all that matters. I mean the law is only the law if you have the capacity to enforce it, otherwise it's just paper. If the Lords prefer John the law can be amended to allow it.

I think Sansa knows that which is why she was so secretive with the Knights of the Vale, also probably why she was annoyed at not being asked about ramsey during the war Council. I get the strong feeling she wants to be in charge and will do whatever is necessary to do it.

 Necros wrote:
I don't think Sansa would tolerate being married to that spoiled brat, she'd probably chuck him out the moon door. I know I would.

get Jamie to do it - its not like he has not done it before

The marriage would make sense - Sansa is desperatly weak on her own in terms of power and influence, which (Show) houses are actually left standing in the North she could marry into?

Alterntively she could stay married to Tyrion

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
That's was an utterly ridiculous battle; from the inexplicably huge mounds of corpses to Jon's plot armour to Ramsey killing of the prime of his army with his own bowmen to the Wildlings idly standing by while the Boltons marched around them.

Yeah, I shook my head at that at the time. It just seemed like characters acting stupid in order to set up something that would look cool on TV.

The mounds of corpses...were odd. Why would the dead have piled up that high? Were they fighting on top of the piles?

While I liked the episode, I do really think that it's a case once again of the internet fan theories end up making a better story than the show.

Considering all the talk about Ramsey and fear and loyalty and all that business, during both times during the cavalry charge and the infantry marching up I expected a cry of "The North Remembers" with them forming up around Jon.

I also still preferred my vision of Ramsey surviving and fleeing into the forests to become a 'boogieman' flaying lone travellers and leaving them by the roadside.

Overall though, I think this entire thing is going to work out COMPLETELY differently in the books, when it comes round to it, particularly with Rickon.

 ImAGeek wrote:
They really messed up, Sansa was totally right.

To be fair, even if Sansa knew Ramsey's exact plan to bait Jon and told him, he'd have said it was impossible to make that shot. And he would have been right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:
Overall though, I think this entire thing is going to work out COMPLETELY differently in the books, when it comes round to it, particularly with Rickon.

The showrunners have said as much.

The show isn't at all GRRM's style at this point. There's some good and bad with that.

 Compel wrote:

Overall though, I think this entire thing is going to work out COMPLETELY differently in the books, when it comes round to it, particularly with Rickon.

I think that in the end the TV and the book versions will have little in common.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:



Its often said that GRRM's ASOIAF series has an inherent anti-war message (GRRM was a conscientious objector in the Vietnam War IIRC), and that the showrunners have completely ignored if not outright disrespected that anti-war message in favour of doing a typical Hollywood esque Actrion Blockbuster with lots of glorified violence and all conquering Heroes.

No they haven't. This is literally the first time we've seen a pitched battle in GOT. And it sure as feth wasn't glorified. It was awful.

No they didn't. The Starks lost the battle. It was only the intervention of the Knights of the Vale that saved them.

Yes, they did. There is a Stark in Winterfell. They were aided by a calculated move by a Stark.

Also...Ramsay is an idiot. If he'd just picked up a sword instead of a bow, he might have had a chance against Jon Snow.

Because Ramsay the hunter of humans knew that was his best chance. He even mentions that he's aware Jon is a better swordsman. Plus... he was literally surrounded by Stark bannermen. He wasn't making it out of there, and he knew it.

Oh, and one final remark...If I ever get the opportunity to run a pitched battle in my Dungeons and Dragons campaign, its going to have a mountain of bodies. That was probably the coolest part of this episode.

[Incorrect] Complaints about the 'glorification of war' in your first comment, followed by the comment that "piles of bodies are the coolest?" Um... okay?

It's almost like people have different opinions of things...

I enjoyed it and I'm glad Ramsey is dead.

Also: Danny + Yara, sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N...OH MY!

Dany did seem a little intrigued, didn't she?

 cincydooley wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:



Its often said that GRRM's ASOIAF series has an inherent anti-war message (GRRM was a conscientious objector in the Vietnam War IIRC), and that the showrunners have completely ignored if not outright disrespected that anti-war message in favour of doing a typical Hollywood esque Actrion Blockbuster with lots of glorified violence and all conquering Heroes.

No they haven't. This is literally the first time we've seen a pitched battle in GOT. And it sure as feth wasn't glorified. It was awful.

Oh, and one final remark...If I ever get the opportunity to run a pitched battle in my Dungeons and Dragons campaign, its going to have a mountain of bodies. That was probably the coolest part of this episode.

[Incorrect] Complaints about the 'glorification of war' in your first comment, followed by the comment that "piles of bodies are the coolest?" Um... okay?

I never said they were my complaints. Its just something I read recently, that the books have a strong pacifist/anti-war message that the show has largely ignored. I was simply commenting that this is the first time that I've ever got that same anti-war vibe from the show.

Because Ramsay the hunter of humans knew that was his best chance. He even mentions that he's aware Jon is a better swordsman. Plus... he was literally surrounded by Stark bannermen. He wasn't making it out of there, and he knew it.

I didn't mean a chance to survive, I meant a chance to win the fight and kill Jon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
I enjoyed it and I'm glad Ramsey is dead.

Also: Danny + Yara, sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N...OH MY!

I wonder if Yara kisses the same way that Jon Snow kisses...

Good episode. Sansa has got nasty. Nothing like a scorned pissed off woman with a full army of knights and learned from little finger...

Now that was a fantastic episode from start to finish - perhaps the best episode they have done

From the very start - Dany and Tyrion - great stuff.
No dull siege dragging on and on.
Dany + Dragons = Win - so loved that whole sequence - awesome. What we have been waiting for - for how long!
Confronting the Masters - great.
Looks like the whole Slavers Bay stuff is laid to rest - Hopefuly GRM is taking notes on how not to waste time!
More refences to wildfyre.

Then we have the North - again great stuff
Ramsey continues to be fabulously wonderfully evil - and Sansa warns Jon - good dialogue between them on the eve of battle.
Jon shows he may be able to handle a small skirmish but he knows sweet feth all about battles.

Great line by Melisande - "Don't loose" (although can;t see her staying alive much longer)

More cool Dany and Tyrion stuff with Theon and Yana and yep - girls flirting together is never a bad thing for drawing attention (as most girls will confirm)

Then the battle - brilliantly done - some of it did not make a lot of sense but it was very well done.
"You have to run"
I hope Jon has learned from Ramsey actually having a plan and putting it into effect rather than charge headlong and get your army killed - worst general ever and now officially lost more battles than Stanis! (in fact never won one) - why anyone thnks he can be general of the North escapes me - a a figurehead maybe to lead the few wildings left alive.

Ramsey - Sansa ending - nice poetic justice and Ramsey is right - by her smile at the end - yes he will be with her forever, she is truely starting t play the game of thrones.

Only thing is I really can't see how the final episode will top this??

So the North is now in the hands of Littlefinger.......Sansa is a useful figurehead nbut she needs to solidfy her limited power by marriage?
Unless she keeps the hounds?

Now of course the North has lost its last decent army (and apparerntly army commander) - good luck with the undead

I think that in the end the TV and the book versions will have little in common.

Thank the gods - old and new.

 gorgon wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
That's was an utterly ridiculous battle; from the inexplicably huge mounds of corpses to Jon's plot armour to Ramsey killing of the prime of his army with his own bowmen to the Wildlings idly standing by while the Boltons marched around them.

Yeah, I shook my head at that at the time. It just seemed like characters acting stupid in order to set up something that would look cool on TV.

The mounds of corpses...were odd. Why would the dead have piled up that high? Were they fighting on top of the piles?

So.... from a common tactical decision you would want me to split my army in the pitch of combat, my smaller army and have them break formation because we are being enclosed allowing my enemy to kill my forces much easier. If you were outside of that formation you were as good as dead.

It is also allowed them to stay behind the corpse wall which did give them a strategic advantage over the bolton army it gave them cover from the archers. Which the stark forces did not have any clue about, we the audience did, but what fool would break formation? Ever read about the battle of Canne? Or the battles agaisnt Hannibal? Hannibal knew that forces would rather die honorably than as a cowardly force and knew they would not break, so he enveloped them and slaughtered them. This is an exactly similar course. They the commanders of the group could not retreat or risk their flanks being completely exposed. I usually go against movies and shows for terrible strategy

Jon's plot armour to Ramsey killing of the prime of his army with his own bowmen to the Wildlings idly standing by while the Boltons marched around them.

Meh, I would have much preferred to have the battle off screen and to have concentrated on the storming of Winterfell.

Well you are pretty big sourpuss. Oh no we actually SEE a battle for once. We need the SHOW not tell, that this show is very obviously likes to do so much. It is rather annoying how many times we have been told of a great battle or a siege or something and not being shown the horrors of war. I personally think that Jon just got lucky. I don't really see it as plot armor, we don't have him SURVIVING KNIFE WOUNDS THAT WOULD KILL NORMAL CHARACTERS.

Plot armor is explained by many as the ability of some characters to live through circumstances that would kill someone. No where in that did jon get stabbed or wounded. That means one thing. He got lucky. Thats all I See it as. Infact most common soldiers will even tell you how many times they got close to death as well from bullets literally whizzing by their head.

Instead of saying "LAZY WRITING" Or misusing the words plot armor how about you guys actually research the term? Cliches like that are fine, but if misused then yeah. It is lazy. But I don't think in this case it is. We saw a character in the last episode get stabbed multiple times and given a band aid to make it all better. (that is plot armor). Where the plot dictates who lives or dies. Trust me it would be a lot less interesting if Jon snow actually died. WE wouldn't have anyone to replace him, no one in the north has his charisma and what reason would there to be watching the show if characters just died randomly? It would be a poorly written show no one would watch it. Infact in real life that doesn't happen, people don't just up and die randomly, there is always a build up a reason behind the death.

Its not being praised for its 'ingenius plot' it is exactly what people wanted for a change, you have to have some victories for the audience to see otherwise it would be depressive and again no one would watch the show. And yes Jon snow survived that because he is infact the hero of the story. In the books he got a bit more luckier than you would think possible. Yes the battle of the bastards was probably one of the best and well directed battles to grace cinimea.

No they haven't. This is literally the first time we've seen a pitched battle in GOT. And it sure as feth wasn't glorified. It was awful.

I think people just think OH COOL BODY PILES

And forget.... That was a bunch of people, in battle that did sometimes happenwhere people tried to take positions and they just fell onto massive body piles, it happened, and it was horrifying. Its why most bodies on the battlefield were burned. Not everyone gets to have their body return, infact that is a relatively new thing.



I look forward to next weeks episode and I hope I can skip to it in my life, while I write my book

But anyway I think it was a great episode and I have very few complaints apart from one. Which I won't share because its not really relevant. Though it is a pretty big beef with the show.

To clarify, what I thought was cool about the mountain of corpses wasn't how gory and violent and horrific it was. What I found cool was how the topography of the battlefield quickly changed from what was originally a relatively flat and featureless plain, to this massive obstacle (of human corpses) that sprang up to the point that people were fighting over it.

The idea of the dead becoming a tactical obstacle as the battle progresses is interesting and not something you see very often outside of World War 1 films.

I'm in the "meh" side.
The outcome was totally predicable, John Snow plot armour has never been so apparent, the battle was stupid (they let themselves being encircled ?! Ramsay has more cavalry but shoot at them rather than just let his cavalry win the cavalry fight, etc...).
And the giant who destroys Winterfell's door alone, taking arrows and arrows... while only, what, 3 or 4 night watchers killed one at The Wall ?
The ending was pretty bad, too.
When Joffrey died, it was very sad, he was very vulnerable, human, his mother crying...
He was endearing, at last.
But in this episode, it was just a "free" murder.
Just one more killing.
And WTF Sansa didn't informed her brother she may have reinforcements ?!
Ok, maybe she wasn't sure, but she could have informed him.


Daenerys part was predictable too, but enjoyable.
Just annoyed by the overtone feminism .

They could (should ?) have shown Dae more dark, like, now she isn't artless / innocent anymore, and she chooses the best for her (more ships) so she prefers Euron's proposal.
But it is ok like this, too.

However, I have to admit, I almost didn't like any GoT episode this season, maybe I'm just getting used to it, or whatever ?

The realistic way the battle was shown was very brutal and interesting, by the way.