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 cincydooley wrote:
Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.

Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.

Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.

GTFO.

Yeah, I have no problem with it. If your sibling is in trouble, you TRY to save him/her. End of story.

And not to shift the topic here, but that does bring us to Sansa. She wanted to write off Rickon, and apparently was fine letting Jon fight that battle without potential reinforcements.

Is she eliminating threats to her inheriting Winterfell -- Rickon, Jon, Jon's army -- or is this just more sloppy writing? It stinks that the latter possibility is in the conversation, but it is.

 gorgon wrote:


Is she eliminating threats to her inheriting Winterfell -- Rickon, Jon, Jon's army -- or is this just more sloppy writing? It stinks that the latter possibility is in the conversation, but it is.

I think it is, at this point, that she simply trusts no one.

She learned a lot a from Baelish. Trust only yourself. Despite fething over others.

In short, she's playing the game.

 gorgon wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.

Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.

Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.

GTFO.

Yeah, I have no problem with it. If your sibling is in trouble, you TRY to save him/her. End of story.

And not to shift the topic here, but that does bring us to Sansa. She wanted to write off Rickon, and apparently was fine letting Jon fight that battle without potential reinforcements.

Is she eliminating threats to her inheriting Winterfell -- Rickon, Jon, Jon's army -- or is this just more sloppy writing? It stinks that the latter possibility is in the conversation, but it is.

She was not fine with it. She repeatedly made the point that that there was not enough men, and they were going to lose.

 djones520 wrote:


She was not fine with it. She repeatedly made the point that that there was not enough men, and they were going to lose.

And then failed to disclose that she had sent for more....

 gorgon wrote:

Is she eliminating threats to her inheriting Winterfell -- Rickon, Jon, Jon's army -- or is this just more sloppy writing? It stinks that the latter possibility is in the conversation, but it is.

Well I think partially that. Most likely it was exactly what she said, Rickon was already dead. She knew how Ramsey operated, he uses and abuses people for kicks and Rickon was the biggest threat to his rule as he had the most legitimate claim to the North. As far as Sansa is concerned even if he was still alive it wouldn't have been for much longer.

 cincydooley wrote:

 djones520 wrote:


She was not fine with it. She repeatedly made the point that that there was not enough men, and they were going to lose.

And then failed to disclose that she had sent for more....

Why should she have? She had no clue when they would arrive, if they would. She only did it as a last resort. She was pushing him to find more support in the north, so she wouldn't have to rely on Baelish.

Honestly, I find this talk about her trying to bump Jon off just foolish.

 cincydooley wrote:
Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.

Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.

Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.

GTFO.

I didn't see anyone saying how awful the Blackfish was he would not surrender when his son was to be killed.

As I have repeatedly said recently - Jon is a good man but that does make him a good general - which people seem to think he is. He is out of his depth and floundering - but it is more realistic than him winning.

His impulsive mistake did however get hundreds killed and destroyed any chance of victory save for a lucky arrival of unexpected reinforcements (again!) - it was understandable, human reaction but if he wants to win wars he can't think like that- he will keep loosing.

Sansa - tricky to judge her when we don't know what she knew and when - likely we will find out next episode. -

looking forward to seeing how they top this one!

Sept go boom, Tomman go splat, Cersei go even more crazy would be my guess.

 Compel wrote:
Sept go boom, Tomman go splat, Cersei go even more crazy would be my guess.

Sounds fun - crossed fngers for Magery though

 Compel wrote:
Sept go boom, Tomman go splat, Cersei go even more crazy would be my guess.

Marg and the Tyrells are done. Cersei will be the queen of nothing but a ruin.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.

Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.

Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.

GTFO.

I didn't see anyone saying how awful the Blackfish was he would not surrender when his son was to be killed.

As I have repeatedly said recently - Jon is a good man but that does make him a good general - which people seem to think he is. He is out of his depth and floundering - but it is more realistic than him winning.

His impulsive mistake did however get hundreds killed and destroyed any chance of victory save for a lucky arrival of unexpected reinforcements (again!) - it was understandable, human reaction but if he wants to win wars he can't think like that- he will keep loosing.

Sansa - tricky to judge her when we don't know what she knew and when - likely we will find out next episode. -

looking forward to seeing how they top this one!

The Blackfish is his uncle, not father.

 djones520 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.

Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.

Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.

GTFO.

I didn't see anyone saying how awful the Blackfish was he would not surrender when his son was to be killed.

As I have repeatedly said recently - Jon is a good man but that does make him a good general - which people seem to think he is. He is out of his depth and floundering - but it is more realistic than him winning.

His impulsive mistake did however get hundreds killed and destroyed any chance of victory save for a lucky arrival of unexpected reinforcements (again!) - it was understandable, human reaction but if he wants to win wars he can't think like that- he will keep loosing.

Sansa - tricky to judge her when we don't know what she knew and when - likely we will find out next episode. -

looking forward to seeing how they top this one!

The Blackfish is his uncle, not father.

That, and he knew the Freys were bluffing.

 djones520 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.

Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.

Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.

GTFO.

I didn't see anyone saying how awful the Blackfish was he would not surrender when his son was to be killed.

As I have repeatedly said recently - Jon is a good man but that does make him a good general - which people seem to think he is. He is out of his depth and floundering - but it is more realistic than him winning.

His impulsive mistake did however get hundreds killed and destroyed any chance of victory save for a lucky arrival of unexpected reinforcements (again!) - it was understandable, human reaction but if he wants to win wars he can't think like that- he will keep loosing.

Sansa - tricky to judge her when we don't know what she knew and when - likely we will find out next episode. -

looking forward to seeing how they top this one!

The Blackfish is his uncle, not father.

So - uncle, nehphew, father, brother - the point still stands - everyone kept saying how great he was ....... but he was willing to see his own kln slaughtered in front of him.

I doubt I could do it - but I don't hold the lives of hundreds in my hands.

 djones520 wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 djones520 wrote:


She was not fine with it. She repeatedly made the point that that there was not enough men, and they were going to lose.

And then failed to disclose that she had sent for more....

Why should she have? She had no clue when they would arrive, if they would. She only did it as a last resort. She was pushing him to find more support in the north, so she wouldn't have to rely on Baelish.

You don't think knowledge of those possible assets would influence their battle plans, including timing? And they would have been able to *estimate* an arrival time -- raven flight time + time to marshal forces + travel time.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.

Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.

Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.

GTFO.

I didn't see anyone saying how awful the Blackfish was he would not surrender when his son was to be killed.

As I have repeatedly said recently - Jon is a good man but that does make him a good general - which people seem to think he is. He is out of his depth and floundering - but it is more realistic than him winning.

His impulsive mistake did however get hundreds killed and destroyed any chance of victory save for a lucky arrival of unexpected reinforcements (again!) - it was understandable, human reaction but if he wants to win wars he can't think like that- he will keep loosing.

Sansa - tricky to judge her when we don't know what she knew and when - likely we will find out next episode. -

looking forward to seeing how they top this one!

The Blackfish is his uncle, not father.

So - uncle, nehphew, father, brother - the point still stands - everyone kept saying how great he was ....... but he was willing to see his own kln slaughtered in front of him.

I doubt I could do it - but I don't hold the lives of hundreds in my hands.

Except...he wasn't? If the Freys had intended to kill Edmure they would have gone through with it. The Blackfish called their bluff.
I don't think Jaime was bluffing though when he said he would catapult Edmure's son into the castle. He looked deadly serious.

 gorgon wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 djones520 wrote:


She was not fine with it. She repeatedly made the point that that there was not enough men, and they were going to lose.

And then failed to disclose that she had sent for more....

Why should she have? She had no clue when they would arrive, if they would. She only did it as a last resort. She was pushing him to find more support in the north, so she wouldn't have to rely on Baelish.

You don't think knowledge of those possible assets would influence their battle plans, including timing? And they would have been able to *estimate* an arrival time -- raven flight time + time to marshal forces + travel time.

If they were actual TESTed commanders,

For people here:
So your saying... in a situation where you are a first time leader of an army and seeing your brother being lead on a leash and shot at by a sociopath.
You would be able to able to execute in this situation be able to do all of this?

No plan survives first contact, especially in a desperate situation.

The fact they almost won was amazing enough.

Or how about it it doesn't matter what anyone of us would have really done in that situation (lol, by the way) because it's a fething work of fiction and fantasy, no less.

The only thing that matters is whether it worked for the sake of the story, and it did. Arguing about how a work of fantasy fiction with magic, dragons, and people that come back from dead doesn't portray realistic enough medieval military tactics is asinine. I mean, it's just a pointless thing to bicker about now just like it was pointless to argue over the sword fighting in the Tower of Joy scene.

Over all I think the battle played out well. Jon didn't try to save Rickon because he was a good general, he did it because it's what a good brother would try to do. That's why he's the hero, he try's to do what's right, not what's easy.
It totally messed up his battle plans, and played right into Ramseys hands. This was sign posted for the audience. Sansa literally told us it was going to happen.

The piles of body's was very movie esc, but not totally unheard of. This was effectively a kill zone, most of the cavalry died in a very small section of the battle field, with the boltons archers slaughtering both the wildlings and the carstarks in that melee.

My main pev's where the lack of Ghost, the way in which the bolton foot troops were able to surround them so quickely (without anyone really trying to stop them) and the Giant not being able to lead a breakout through the lines.

I also don't think Sansa is playing some game here, rather she didn't trust littlefinger to come to their aid. For all she knew he could of arrived in aid of the boltons. Her asking him for help was out of desperation.

Exactly!

Jon made an individual impulsive decision to try and save his brother, then other elements of his army, let's say, also made bad/impulsive decisions. The initial plan they came up with wasn't horrible, I guess.

And I'm glad we finally got General Morden to admit he'd................do no better!

According to alot of peoples estimations people have found this out:

before pincer movement



They had around 1376 during pincer by the end

after



In total they ave 653 men encircled.

Most of the bolton army was calvary and it was slaughtered by ramsay's archers.

Most of its forces then smashed into Jon's frontline which was slaughtered during the onslaught.

Its probably many more men that survived the battle wounded. But it should be interesting seeing how many Jon has left.

That's some impressive work there - kudos to...whoever it was that did that!

 Asherian Command wrote:
According to alot of peoples estimations people have found this out:

before pincer movement



They had around 1376 during pincer by the end

after



In total they ave 653 men encircled.

Most of the bolton army was calvary and it was slaughtered by ramsay's archers.

Most of its forces then smashed into Jon's frontline which was slaughtered during the onslaught.

Its probably many more men that survived the battle wounded. But it should be interesting seeing how many Jon has left.

Waiting for the part when the stormcast eternals drop in and give those bastards a good hammering

 Alpharius wrote:
Exactly!

Jon made an individual impulsive decision to try and save his brother, then other elements of his army, let's say, also made bad/impulsive decisions. The initial plan they came up with wasn't horrible, I guess.

And I'm glad we finally got General Morden to admit he'd................do no better!

Sigh - I wish you would actually read my posts rather than constantly making snarky remarks at me to apparently score points with your online friends.

I am pleased people are finally admitting that JS is not some king of genius general ready to lead the North to victory.

I don't think Jaime was bluffing though when he said he would catapult Edmure's son into the castle. He looked deadly serious.

And the Blackfish would have let him - he made that clear. I have no issue with that and it fits with the quasi-medieval world.

So your saying... in a situation where you are a first time leader of an army and seeing your brother being lead on a leash and shot at by a sociopath.
You would be able to able to execute in this situation be able to do all of this?

If you want to be a leader of an army - you need to think about more than yourself and your own family - there were several thousand men who lived and died by his decisions- this time they died. Many successful generals drank a lot, or were not exactly sane - for this reason.

I don't think Jon does want to be the leader of an army - he has made that clear - he has been forced into the role and in this situation he reacted as a man not a general.

Sansa told him what would happen in general terms - she has grown up a lot. To her Rickon was dead the moment she turned her horse away from Ramsey.

 Tamereth wrote:
Over all I think the battle played out well. Jon didn't try to save Rickon because he was a good general, he did it because it's what a good brother would try to do. That's why he's the hero, he try's to do what's right, not what's easy.
It totally messed up his battle plans, and played right into Ramseys hands. This was sign posted for the audience. Sansa literally told us it was going to happen.

The piles of body's was very movie esc, but not totally unheard of. This was effectively a kill zone, most of the cavalry died in a very small section of the battle field, with the boltons archers slaughtering both the wildlings and the carstarks in that melee.

My main pev's where the lack of Ghost, the way in which the bolton foot troops were able to surround them so quickely (without anyone really trying to stop them) and the Giant not being able to lead a breakout through the lines.

I also don't think Sansa is playing some game here, rather she didn't trust littlefinger to come to their aid. For all she knew he could of arrived in aid of the boltons. Her asking him for help was out of desperation.

Wun-Wun definitely should have brought a big club or something. Would've messed the Bolton infantry up something awful. Hell, even throwing corpses at people would be effective. A 200lbs corpse would be a very effective throwing weapon for a giant.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I am pleased people are finally admitting that JS is not some king of genius general ready to lead the North to victory.

I don't think anyone really claimed that Jon was some military genius so you aren't really "winning" any arguments here. In fact, most people (like myself) don't really give a gak whether he is or not, because you know... It's a work of fantasy fiction.

Anybody else looking forward to the moment when Cersei finds out that Sansa and Jon have retaken Winterfell, the North is once more in open rebellion and whats more, the Vale and Littlefinger have joined said rebellion and allied with the Starks?

One of the people she (mistakenly) believes responsible for murdering her son and another who actually is responsible have raised two of the seven kingdoms in rebellion against her family, and she's in absolutely no position whatsoever to do anything about it.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Anybody else looking forward to the moment when Cersei finds out that Sansa and Jon have retaken Winterfell, the North is once more in open rebellion and whats more, the Vale and Littlefinger have joined said rebellion and allied with the Starks?

One of the people she (mistakenly) believes responsible for murdering her son and another who actually is responsible have raised two of the seven kingdoms in rebellion against her family, and she's in absolutely no position whatsoever to do anything about it.

She's a little pre-occupied with the High Sparrow having control over her son, to be honest.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Anybody else looking forward to the moment when Cersei finds out that Sansa and Jon have retaken Winterfell, the North is once more in open rebellion and whats more, the Vale and Littlefinger have joined said rebellion and allied with the Starks?

One of the people she (mistakenly) believes responsible for murdering her son and another who actually is responsible have raised two of the seven kingdoms in rebellion against her family, and she's in absolutely no position whatsoever to do anything about it.

She's a little pre-occupied with the High Sparrow having control over her son, to be honest.

Naturally, but I'm still looking forward to the schadenfruede I'll feel when Qyburn makes his report on recent events in the North.

Or when they all get the news about adult Dragons burning entire fleets!

Given what happened last time a Targaryian had 3 Dragons that will likely cause the most disquiet in Westros?

I think the North will be considered a relatively minor issue until they get hard facts about the undead.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Or when they all get the news about adult Dragons burning entire fleets!

Given what happened last time a Targaryian had 3 Dragons that will likely cause the most disquiet in Westros?

Plus the news that said Targaryen has not one but TWO fleets at her disposal, the Iron Fleet and the Slaver Fleet. At least, that was my interpretation from why she burned just one of the ships - she wants the rest of the fleet to sail to Westeros.