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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Or when they all get the news about adult Dragons burning entire fleets!

Given what happened last time a Targaryian had 3 Dragons that will likely cause the most disquiet in Westros?

Plus the news that said Targaryen has not one but TWO fleets at her disposal, the Iron Fleet and the Slaver Fleet. At least, that was my interpretation from why she burned just one of the ships - she wants the rest of the fleet to sail to Westeros.

Yeah it was a bit hard to make out what she captured and what got destroyed - she definately burnt a couple of ships but the impression was she captured quite a few, plus 100 ships from Yana and Theon.

We could end up with a big naval battle of course if the other Iron Born manage to build their fleet.

Interesting that she told the Y and T that no more reaving and raping - - has she told the Dothraki that yet I wonder? may not go down to well.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Or when they all get the news about adult Dragons burning entire fleets!

Given what happened last time a Targaryian had 3 Dragons that will likely cause the most disquiet in Westros?

Plus the news that said Targaryen has not one but TWO fleets at her disposal, the Iron Fleet and the Slaver Fleet. At least, that was my interpretation from why she burned just one of the ships - she wants the rest of the fleet to sail to Westeros.

Yeah it was a bit hard to make out what she captured and what got destroyed - she definately burnt a couple of ships but the impression was she captured quite a few, plus 100 ships from Yana and Theon.

We could end up with a big naval battle of course if the other Iron Born manage to build their fleet.

Interesting that she told the Y and T that no more reaving and raping - - has she told the Dothraki that yet I wonder? may not go down to well.

What are they gonna do, lodge a formal complaint? She'll just refer them to her dragons.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Or when they all get the news about adult Dragons burning entire fleets!

Given what happened last time a Targaryian had 3 Dragons that will likely cause the most disquiet in Westros?

Plus the news that said Targaryen has not one but TWO fleets at her disposal, the Iron Fleet and the Slaver Fleet. At least, that was my interpretation from why she burned just one of the ships - she wants the rest of the fleet to sail to Westeros.

Yeah it was a bit hard to make out what she captured and what got destroyed - she definately burnt a couple of ships but the impression was she captured quite a few, plus 100 ships from Yana and Theon.

We could end up with a big naval battle of course if the other Iron Born manage to build their fleet.

Interesting that she told the Y and T that no more reaving and raping - - has she told the Dothraki that yet I wonder? may not go down to well.

What are they gonna do, lodge a formal complaint? She'll just refer them to her dragons.

True , true

Its yet another interesting parallel between Daenerys and Jon...

Daenerys is uniting former enemies (the Unsullied slave army, the Dothraki and the people of Meereen) against a common enemy (the slavers, and soon Westeros), and convincing certain people to abandon their former ways (the Dothraki traditions of pillaging and raiding).

Jon is also uniting former enemies (the Wildlings and the Men of the North) against a common enemy (the Boltons, Umbers and Karstarks), and he's convincing certain people to abandon their former ways (the Wildlings are fighting alongside Northern loyalists instead of pillaging and raiding).

And both Dany and Jon have something supernatural that endears them and makes them gods in the eyes of their followers... (Dany survived an inferno, and commands three Dragons. Jon was resurrected from the dead).

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I am pleased people are finally admitting that JS is not some king of genius general ready to lead the North to victory.

I don't think anyone really claimed that Jon was some military genius so you aren't really "winning" any arguments here. In fact, most people (like myself) don't really give a gak whether he is or not, because you know... It's a work of fantasy fiction.

Exactly.

Sometimes it really is OK to just enjoy something for what it is.

Sure, there's lazy writing here, but it is miles better in terms of pacing and plot that its source material now.

You really have to switch your brain off to enjoy Game of Thrones. Dumb entertainment at its finest.

 djones520 wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 djones520 wrote:


She was not fine with it. She repeatedly made the point that that there was not enough men, and they were going to lose.

And then failed to disclose that she had sent for more....

Why should she have? She had no clue when they would arrive, if they would. She only did it as a last resort. She was pushing him to find more support in the north, so she wouldn't have to rely on Baelish.

Honestly, I find this talk about her trying to bump Jon off just foolish.

Sansa *pled* with Jon to go to Winterfell and *save their brother* when it appeared he was just going to slink off somewhere. A snippet of that scene even ran at the beginning of this episode in the "stuff that happened" segment.

Then on the eve of the battle she tells Jon to forget about Rickon because he's dead anyway. This doesn't add up. Either she's fething with Jon's head, is fethed in the head, or it's fething bad writing.

Sadly, I think it is more 'bad writing' and 'short term memory' issues, like when Sansa says 'no one listens to me!', but they do, and then doesn't tell anyone about the secret army of cavalry, just around the corner...

It does appear that the show has already jumped the shark, although I can't put my finger on the exact moment when that happened.

 gorgon wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 djones520 wrote:


She was not fine with it. She repeatedly made the point that that there was not enough men, and they were going to lose.

And then failed to disclose that she had sent for more....

Why should she have? She had no clue when they would arrive, if they would. She only did it as a last resort. She was pushing him to find more support in the north, so she wouldn't have to rely on Baelish.

Honestly, I find this talk about her trying to bump Jon off just foolish.

Sansa *pled* with Jon to go to Winterfell and *save their brother* when it appeared he was just going to slink off somewhere. A snippet of that scene even ran at the beginning of this episode in the "stuff that happened" segment.

Then on the eve of the battle she tells Jon to forget about Rickon because he's dead anyway. This doesn't add up. Either she's fething with Jon's head, is fethed in the head, or it's fething bad writing.

Sadly, I think it is more 'bad writing' and 'short term memory' issues, like when Sansa says 'no one listens to me!', but they do, and then doesn't tell anyone about the secret army of cavalry, just around the corner...

Is this not a case of:

Sure, there's lazy writing here, but it is miles better in terms of pacing and plot that its source material now.

Is that when she first got to the Wall? If so well she absolutely did need Jon, she had a grand total of two retainers - he had the Wildlings and Davos. She had a grand vision of the North uniting behind her. Time has passed since then, reality has hit her hard and she realised that they wouldn't, or at least not in strength.

Meeting Ramsey face to face showed her they were not getting him back.....

We don't know what and when Sansa knew about Littlefinger do we - we may never know?

 Mr Morden wrote:


Is this not a case of:

Sure, there's lazy writing here, but it is miles better in terms of pacing and plot that its source material now.

Well...no. I didn't say that and don't completely agree with the sentiment or see its relevance in this case.

The issue is the quality of the show, then versus now. It's become brain candy since they left the books behind. But even brain candy can be tightly written, and GoT simply hasn't been this season.

No it most definitely is not a case of "lazy writing" . They had no way of knowing if Ramsey was telling the truth or not. he could have just been baiting them.

As soon as they had the parlay with Ramsey though and saw Shaggydogs head they knew for sure and Sansa responded appropriately.

When Sansa mentioned "saving their brother" it was a appeal to Jon to help Sansa take the North back. He meant to take Sansa and protect her but that did not involve going back to Winterfell, just away. Asking Jon to Save Rickon was just her trying to keep him there to help.

Turns out Sansa did need the Blackfish (a renowned military general) after all. Imagine how differently the battle may have turned out had the Blackfish been in command.

 gorgon wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Is this not a case of:

Sure, there's lazy writing here, but it is miles better in terms of pacing and plot that its source material now.

Well...no. I didn't say that and don't completely agree with the sentiment or see its relevance in this case.

The issue is the quality of the show, then versus now. It's become brain candy since they left the books behind. But even brain candy can be tightly written, and GoT simply hasn't been this season.

I didn't say you did - I was quoting the person who made both the latter two statements.

Books vs Show is a different debate - For instance I feel the books are now turgid unreadable nonsense with no focus or even decent editing - but each to their own.

The Show is (for me) usually well written - there are notable glitches - Dorne, Aria's recent escapades but they pale in comparison to that in the books.

Otherwise all that Commodus said.

Turns out Sansa did need the Blackfish (a renowned military general) after all. Imagine how differently the battle may have turned out had the Blackfish been in command.

Yep he would have been a major asset - if he could have got their in time, but I think she knew that and his death was a major blow.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
No it most definitely is not a case of "lazy writing" . They had no way of knowing if Ramsey was telling the truth or not. he could have just been baiting them.

As soon as they had the parlay with Ramsey though and saw Shaggydogs head they knew for sure and Sansa responded appropriately.

When Sansa mentioned "saving their brother" it was a appeal to Jon to help Sansa take the North back. He meant to take Sansa and protect her but that did not involve going back to Winterfell, just away. Asking Jon to Save Rickon was just her trying to keep him there to help.

So in other words, when she wasn't sure if Ramsey had her brother, that's when she acted gung-ho about saving him...possibly to force Jon to use the Wildlings to fight and die to capture Winterfell for HER. And then when it was confirmed that Rickon was actually alive and captured by Ramsey, that's when she wrote him off.

So your assertion is that it's either situation #1 or #2. She's either fething with Jon in really, really terrible ways, or fethed in the head and doesn't know what she's doing from hour to hour. Maybe some of both. Perhaps this is Ramsey's meaning when he says he's a part of her now.

But let's see if that's how things play out. I have a suspicion that none of this will be addressed by Jon like it would by any real-life person, and that short-term memory loss will rule the day.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Is this not a case of:

Sure, there's lazy writing here, but it is miles better in terms of pacing and plot that its source material now.

Well...no. I didn't say that and don't completely agree with the sentiment or see its relevance in this case.

The issue is the quality of the show, then versus now. It's become brain candy since they left the books behind. But even brain candy can be tightly written, and GoT simply hasn't been this season.

I didn't say you did - I was quoting the person who made both the latter two statements.

Books vs Show is a different debate - For instance I feel the books are now turgid unreadable nonsense with no focus or even decent editing - but each to their own.

You might want to work on your quote trees then?

And yes, I agree - the books (as of maybe 4, but definitely 5) have become meandering messes compared to what they were!

Sansa's picked up a few personality traits from Ramsay I think. Sansa is probably now the show's version of Lady Stoneheart.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sansa's picked up a few personality traits from Ramsay I think. Sansa is probably now the show's version of Lady Stoneheart.

You know, that's not a bad point!

But I still say her character is either not well written, or maybe not getting enough screen time to show us maybe in a bit more detail her path, or maybe her milestones?

 Alpharius wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sansa's picked up a few personality traits from Ramsay I think. Sansa is probably now the show's version of Lady Stoneheart.

You know, that's not a bad point!

But I still say her character is either not well written, or maybe not getting enough screen time to show us maybe in a bit more detail her path, or maybe her milestones?

I agree, its not well written.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sansa's picked up a few personality traits from Ramsay I think. Sansa is probably now the show's version of Lady Stoneheart.

Ramsey said it himself - that he would be with her, always.

Our time together is about to come to an end. That’s all right. You can’t kill me. I’m part of you now

.

Well he was wrong about not being killed (in a physical sense) but yeah I think what she did and her smile after speaks volumes - similar to Dany telling the witch that she would scream before she burnt her alive.

Its a very nasty world they live in.

I wonder if she will have a pack of dogs with her next time we see her

Sansa is messing with Jon and her exact motivations aren't well known at the moment I agree. Best guess is she is taking Littlefingers advise and not trusting anyone. When they met he did drop "half-brother" when they spoke of Jon.

She's spent most of the show either in Kings Landing watching or With Peter learning how to manipulate people/learning that peoples word doesn't necessarily mean anything. She's being cautious and I don't blame her for it at all.

Frankly I imagine it will start to have some resolution or confrontation in the castle....only to be interrupted as "The Winds of Winter" blow south causing that massive pile of dead bodies to get up and attack Winterfell.

Also everyone in the Castle dies...seems like the appropriate way to end the season.

Having the Blackfish there wouldn't have done gak. The Wildlings follow Jon because they respect and trust Jon. The Blackfish would have been some substitute teacher.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sansa's picked up a few personality traits from Ramsay I think. Sansa is probably now the show's version of Lady Stoneheart.

You know, that's not a bad point!

But I still say her character is either not well written, or maybe not getting enough screen time to show us maybe in a bit more detail her path, or maybe her milestones?

I feel similarly about the High Sparrow. Is he a true believer? A climber in disguise? Or does he have other motives? Nothing wrong with keeping a character's background and motivations somewhat nebulous, but I feel like you eventually have to give a little of that to hook viewers or readers and get them to care about the character. It's too bad, because I think Pryce is good in the role considering what he's given.

As is, I don't care and can actively root for everyone in King's Landing to be thoroughly crisped, and I don't think that's what the writers want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
Having the Blackfish there wouldn't have done gak. The Wildlings follow Jon because they respect and trust Jon. The Blackfish would have been some substitute teacher.

And again, Jon wasn't the one who ordered the attack. He intentionally went off *on his own* to try to save his brother.

"Jon is a bad general" is just exceptionally lazy viewing and thinking, but then the show has been encouraging that lately.

Ramsay did an excellent job of goading Jon, which was foreshadowed. If her is the one leading the fight against the white walkers, everyone is fethed.

I really hope he learns from his expensive mistakes.

bah I haven't seen the last 3-5 episodes of this show which sucks.

 gorgon wrote:


And again, Jon wasn't the one who ordered the attack. He intentionally went off *on his own* to try to save his brother.

"Jon is a bad general" is just exceptionally lazy viewing and thinking, but then the show has been encouraging that lately.

Yes!

Jon's general (ha!) plan was OK, especially without knowing about the expected/hoped for cavalry reinforcements.

It is just that he 1) tried to save his brother and 2) the rest of the army tried to save him!

Sure, I guess you could blame that on his 'bad generalship' or maybe his troop's lack of discipline or on his overall charisma as a leader?

Also Jon is a straight forward guy. I'll say I think he's actually the most suited to fighting with the While Walkers. What's needed in the face of horror is the ability to stand. Jon inspires that in spades. Against the Zombies he's going to have to worry way less about battlefield maneuvers. It's not like the zombies are going to break like normal humans would. It's going to come down to discipline and belief.

And while he isn't much on discipline he'll have help from other lords/lady's for that. Belief he creates wherever he walks.

Jon got Wildlings to fight on the side of the Starks. 'Nuff said.

Leadership is also about getting people to fight for you, and about being able to keep a coalition together.

You can be a great leader, a good man, and a gak general.

Moving on, will Sunday be "We don't need no water let the fething Sparrows burn. Burn, fething Sparrows, burn?"

Signs point to yes!

Yeah as much as the High Sparrow rubs me the wrong way, I do want Cersei to get whats coming to her. Tywin was right, she's not as smart as she thinks she is.