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I've been watching this thread and thinking Geez.

This literally is the best list ever.

Eldar jet bikes have literally zero weaknesses.
Move 12", shoot, move in the assault phase.
They can legitimately move shoot and retreat (i don't know the range on eldar weapons off hand 36" or 24"?)

This is literally the most nonsensical creation and has ZERO counters (ignoring internet hyperbole).

Necrons might stand up to the sustained punishment for a while but aren't likely to be able to retaliate well. And this is only Necrons... what about the other armies.

Aside from that there is very little anyone can do, and you're not hamstringing yourself by taking eldar bikes.

Yes it requires stupid money, yes you might not see it, but i think the issue is more 'the state of the game' than broken units in a broken codex.

The fact things like this exists at all is the problem.

And this is without even knowing the rest of the codex. D weapon wraiths or something else can possibly handle the rest of your army.

I think this is the 'end of times' for me in 40k. Yes i may never see it but there is a point where i just say "F**k it, this game is s**t.

 Mumblez wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Can't wait for the new CSM dex next year. So we can get nerfed again.

We will get one thing that is cheesy, but doesn't win games so that people can complain we don't need anything else to improve.

By the chaos gods, how did any of this get approved? Even Kelly's former OP work was at least somewhat harder to spot till you saw how they interacted.

GW either decided to make Destroyer more common in an attempt to shake up the meta and encourage hordes more (I mean, S - D still hurts, but you're only losing one guy anyway!). That or they realized D-weapons could stand for Destroyer weapons and decided to go with it.

Now we just got to figure out how to deal with s6 spam that kills a greentide in 1-2 turns from another part of the board and we're fine

Battlewagon Spam!

Oh wait CenturionStar deals with that. Well at least Eldar can't touch us!

...they get the most Destroyer Weapons? Should be for LoW, so it's good!
...Elites?!

 koooaei wrote:

 Mumblez wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Can't wait for the new CSM dex next year. So we can get nerfed again.

We will get one thing that is cheesy, but doesn't win games so that people can complain we don't need anything else to improve.

By the chaos gods, how did any of this get approved? Even Kelly's former OP work was at least somewhat harder to spot till you saw how they interacted.

GW either decided to make Destroyer more common in an attempt to shake up the meta and encourage hordes more (I mean, S - D still hurts, but you're only losing one guy anyway!). That or they realized D-weapons could stand for Destroyer weapons and decided to go with it.

Now we just got to figure out how to deal with s6 spam that kills a greentide in 1-2 turns from another part of the board and we're fine

I never said I was gonna win against the new eldar. Even if they don't bring all the S6, I'll never catch them because they're jetbikes...

But yeah, windrider jetbikes and wraithguard (depending on their points cost) seem like an insanely good army. Lots of S6 to deal with 2+ saves, ID GEQ and glance transports, all the mobility you could need to win maelstrom and then S - D to kill multi-wound/HP models/vehicles.

 koooaei wrote:

 Mumblez wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Can't wait for the new CSM dex next year. So we can get nerfed again.

We will get one thing that is cheesy, but doesn't win games so that people can complain we don't need anything else to improve.

By the chaos gods, how did any of this get approved? Even Kelly's former OP work was at least somewhat harder to spot till you saw how they interacted.

GW either decided to make Destroyer more common in an attempt to shake up the meta and encourage hordes more (I mean, S - D still hurts, but you're only losing one guy anyway!). That or they realized D-weapons could stand for Destroyer weapons and decided to go with it.

Now we just got to figure out how to deal with s6 spam that kills a greentide in 1-2 turns from another part of the board and we're fine

I actually figured it out.
Don't play Cheesebeards

Weap we me, my lesser-race brethren.

GW dashed all my hopes and dreams.

Do the wright flamers get D too?
funny enough if eldar take half the number of jetbikes it is still enough to kill most of my infantry.

I hope that in the future dex either chimeras or the taurox get av13 on sides otherwise, even with transports, IG dies too fast.

Makumba wrote:
Do the wright flamers get D too?
funny enough if eldar take half the number of jetbikes it is still enough to kill most of my infantry.

I hope that in the future dex either chimeras or the taurox get av13 on sides otherwise, even with transports, IG dies too fast.

All Distort weapons became Destroyer.

It's great, 4x10 units of Scatter Bikes is 160 S6 shots and that's still enough to fit in some Destroyer weapons. Maybe even ally in DE WWP for no scatter!

Makumba wrote:
Do the wright flamers get D too?
funny enough if eldar take half the number of jetbikes it is still enough to kill most of my infantry.

I hope that in the future dex either chimeras or the taurox get av13 on sides otherwise, even with transports, IG dies too fast.

AV doesn't matter against the new wraithcannons. You can pretend you have AV87 for all the eldar player cares, he's just gonna roll his D6 and hope to not get any 1's.

Is it bad that I find the D-weapon change hilarious? It's just so outrageous that I can't not laugh.

 Mumblez wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Do the wright flamers get D too?
funny enough if eldar take half the number of jetbikes it is still enough to kill most of my infantry.

I hope that in the future dex either chimeras or the taurox get av13 on sides otherwise, even with transports, IG dies too fast.

AV doesn't matter against the new wraithcannons. You can pretend you have AV87 for all the eldar player cares, he's just gonna roll his D6 and hope to not get any 1's.

Is it bad that I find the D-weapon change hilarious? It's just so outrageous that I can't not laugh.

It is only funny until no one wants to play your army anymore.

 Mumblez wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Do the wright flamers get D too?
funny enough if eldar take half the number of jetbikes it is still enough to kill most of my infantry.

I hope that in the future dex either chimeras or the taurox get av13 on sides otherwise, even with transports, IG dies too fast.

AV doesn't matter against the new wraithcannons. You can pretend you have AV87 for all the eldar player cares, he's just gonna roll his D6 and hope to not get any 1's.

Is it bad that I find the D-weapon change hilarious? It's just so outrageous that I can't not laugh.

I don't think it's bad. I think it's like that histerical laughter when things are just too 'much' to process.
Like no game designer is that stupid right? right?

 Rippy wrote:

 Mumblez wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Do the wright flamers get D too?
funny enough if eldar take half the number of jetbikes it is still enough to kill most of my infantry.

I hope that in the future dex either chimeras or the taurox get av13 on sides otherwise, even with transports, IG dies too fast.

AV doesn't matter against the new wraithcannons. You can pretend you have AV87 for all the eldar player cares, he's just gonna roll his D6 and hope to not get any 1's.

Is it bad that I find the D-weapon change hilarious? It's just so outrageous that I can't not laugh.

It is only funny until no one wants to play your army anymore.

I play orks, so I won't be enjoying the perks of it myself.

Boniface nailed it. I mean... S - D seems fluffy for D-weapons but... C'mon, there's gotta be a line, you can't give titan killer weaponry to rank and file troopers even if they're space elf grandpa souls in robot suits!

It's also like the least subtle advertising ever.
Let's make new jet bikes... Let's make them the most powerful thing ever so we sell a shed ton of them.

My thought process three days ago: "You know, I've not checked any of GW's new releases for a while. I know Necrons are broken, but I've heard other things have improved."

*Looks in thread. 90 dead orks in one turn, S: D on infantry.*

"Well, back to Infinity I go!"

Good to know G-dubz will never change.

As much as we're all having fun getting carried away, not even GW will give them legit D-weapon flamers. It will be a D hit on a 6 to wound (instead of instant death), then roll on the destroyer weapon table. Everything else will be as before for their weapons (still far too strong, but that's an argument for another day).

Don't get me wrong, I'm still in shock over the changes to the jetbikes, and even Destroyer hit's on 6's to wound is still insanely strong, doubly so on flamers that don't even have to roll to hit, but surely, surely no-one would allow them to actually have full on D-weapons. Right? RIGHT?

At least Cent-star could survive them, since as long as you get invis off, you only have to deal with ~120 shots hitting on 6's, so that's like, 20 hits, wounding on 3's and 6's are rending. So, like 3 rends and 3 failed armours. See, 1 whole shooting phase and you only lost ~3 guys. You'll be fine... Until they get re-rolls to hit, then you'll lose the entire unit despite invis and being immune to str-D flamers.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
My thought process three days ago: "You know, I've not checked any of GW's new releases for a while. I know Necrons are broken, but I've heard other things have improved."

*Looks in thread. 90 dead orks in one turn, S: D on infantry.*

"Well, back to Infinity I go!"

Good to know G-dubz will never change.

Simply put, we don't know all the details yet. The Eldar shenanigans come on the heels of a fairly well-balanced book in the form of Codex: Skitarii.

The S: D on infantry applies only to Wraithguard, and the exact details of how/when it comes into play(such as if you roll a 6 To Wound which is how the "Distort" special rule currently operates) are as yet unclear.

 Drasius wrote:
As much as we're all having fun getting carried away, not even GW will give them legit D-weapon flamers. It will be a D hit on a 6 to wound (instead of instant death), then roll on the destroyer weapon table. Everything else will be as before for their weapons (still far too strong, but that's an argument for another day).

Well, as much as I'd like to believe that, the argument that 'Not even GW would do 'X'' doesn't hold that much water anymore these days. All that I've seen so far indicates they'll be either legit D weapons, or similar enough to as not matter given the quantities and availability.

Its absurd and game breaking either way.

Total, complete, utter incompetence on GW's behalf. I sincerely hope people don't buy this and reward GW for poor and lazy writing.

Come on dude, you know people will buy these by the armful if they actually get proper D weapons. Hell, they're probably going to sell out even if it's only the d-weapon-lite like I think it's going to be.

Do we know for certain that D-Scythes retain the "Template" property?

 Drasius wrote:
Come on dude, you know people will buy these by the armful if they actually get proper D weapons. Hell, they're probably going to sell out even if it's only the d-weapon-lite like I think it's going to be.

Oh I know people will eat it up, I'm just hoping they won't.

Wow.. just wow. You know every time I think of playing again something like this comes and feths it up. I would play only fluffy, but here we have the divide. A fluffy Saim-Hann Windrider army is also super powerful, just because. A fluffy Space Marine 1st Company list is total garbage, because reasons.

There's not even a thought of balance here. They arbitrarily punish people for playing some fluffy lists and reward people for playing other fluffy lists and likely don't even realize it (or just don't care).

And people still defend this gak?

The saddest part? I see people absolutely GUSHING over this release, talking about how awesome it is and how they can't wait and how on earth are they going to find all the money to buy it. It's like a fething cult.

Honestly, the astonishing part is that you cannot seem to separate people being excited for new models that have been a LONG time coming(the jetbike prototypes were spotted in 2005 or 2006) with powergaming.
Jetbikes by themselves aren't going to be "superpowerful". The issue comes from them suddenly gaining access to Scatter Lasers.

And please bear in mind this is coming from someone who has no interest, now, in starting an Eldar army. I have had one on the backburner for awhile that was going to consist of Illic Nightspear and a boatload of Pathfinders, with Harlequin allies and War Walkers filling my Heavy Support slots.

The new FOC does not really allow for me to do that, unless Illic has a rule making Pathfinders/Rangers into a "Core" option.

In fairness, the models do look pretty solid.

I think I've eaten alphabet soup with better writing in it.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

 Great White wrote:
Do we know the scatter laser rules? Maybe they got nerfed

They have not, they are the same. S6 4 shots.

Evidence of this anywhere? And even then its not the end of the world, instead of freaking out why not discuss ways to counter this?

No one is freaking out like its the end of the world... 160 s6 shots in just over 1000 points is pretty ridiculous though.

on a relentless and mobile 3+ save platform...

It's hilarious I ask for bolter buffs on marines and get shafted and eldar get a scatter laser on each jetbike. Time to quit 40k.

Strength D flamers. Really.

Overwatch, anyone?

Let us put it in a way that is expressively... slightly weaker. Let us say, for arguments sake, that GW did in fact put in a rule that said only on 6's do the hits count as destroyer HITS (and the reason it would be on hits is that I have no idea how it would work on a wound roll... what you wound on a 6 but now you have to roll on the D-chart and on a 1 it was discounted...so yes, it has to be hit). The problem would still be immense if still not in the slightest weaker. It is still a Strength 10 AP 1 shot, so that still hurts like hell and will instant kill most other models, but out of those shots you will get at least 1 roll of a 6 (statistically) - which then has a 5/6 chance to decimate anything it touches. Playing with some wound shenanigans, I can tell you to take the normal shots first... and then when your HQ is all alone, or something precious is coming up, the destroyer wound comes up. The squad has always been a scalpel of decimation, now its even sharper and scarier... which to me was unnecessary.

As for bikes I can only hope that is a misprint. There is no way that something that bad could actually go through playtesting. But playing 40k for many years and my faith has somewhat... diminished.

If this is the case, I might just - quite possibly for the first time ever - flat out refuse to play with that person. It is not that I will lose, I have lost many games, it is that I will lose with quite literally no hope of winning. At least with admechlance I can win with positioning and objectives, and other means. Seeing that codex entry leaves me with dread. How some people can say that it "only kills 25-30 marines" a turn is baffling to me - being that in most games ... at max.. there will be 50 - 60 marines (I am thinking full drop pod army)

Like I said before in this thread - I have slowly moved myself to other systems that I enjoy more. I have sold all but one of my armies (my heavily converted and thematic Heresy White Scars Army... used for 40k ) and moved to companies like spartan games. They are responsive in their forums, their models are gorgeoussss, and the games are actually quite balanced and fun (specifically Firestorm armada and planetfall). I have reserved myself to almost playing 40k at least once a month, or at tournaments, but honestly even that might change.

It sucks because I love the lore, the background, and I do love the models, but again pictures say 1000 words, and those pictures quite literally break the game.

BTW for those who say that scatter lasers do not rend do not realize the powers of warlocks.. and can cause those weapons to rend. So while they do take out a majority of infantry and light tanks fairly easily, with rends and 120 shots....

 Ashiraya wrote:
Strength D flamers. Really.

Overwatch, anyone?

Has anyone actually confirmed yet whether D-Scythes retained their Template?

I'm pretty sure that Distort weapons will only be Str D on a to-hit or to-wound roll of 6. I know though that only that is still pretty insane.

As for the mass Str6 on Jetbikes. I'm honestly flabberghasted.

My only hope is that they stay consistent on the power level of these releases now for each army book. The Necron Decurion is strong enough to go to tournaments with, and it does depict a very fluffy Necron build. The listed formations for the Eldar-Decurion seem like a very fluffy build, and they feel like a strong counter to the new Necrons (can engage them further than 24", can take Str D weapons which are the only things that can ignore the Reanimation Protocols), which all makes sense. If every codex here-out gets an absurdly powerful fluff-build, then that's cool, and we simply have to grit our teeth for up to 2 years for your codex to get the Decurion treatment.

My biggest fear now is that every "bad" codex is just going to stay bad. That it really is just a massive nerd-on for Necrons and Eldar, and everyone else's Decurion-like codex will be terrible. If their strategy is to make super-powered fluff builds, but then see the backlash that Necrons and Eldar get as a sign that they need to tone every other codex down, then we'll just be back where we started.

Seriously - the Necron, Eldar, and Space Marine codexes last time were much more powerful than everything else they released. Everyone got upset (understandably), and maybe that's why the other codexes started getting the "oh we better not make them too strong" approach. Then they creeped it up again until it hits the high of Necron, Eldar, and Space Marine codexes again, and then plummets down again? That'd be terrible. I hope after this codex that all the rest coming forward will be this powerful! I hope that I can rain a BILLION Tyranids from the sky, in addition to massively powerful Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures, because that's what the fluff is.

Did someone here honestly compare crappy jetbikes with an entire army of terminators, the literal best of the best?

 Yarium wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Distort weapons will only be Str D on a to-hit or to-wound roll of 6. I know though that only that is still pretty insane.

As for the mass Str6 on Jetbikes. I'm honestly flabberghasted.

My only hope is that they stay consistent on the power level of these releases now for each army book. The Necron Decurion is strong enough to go to tournaments with, and it does depict a very fluffy Necron build. The listed formations for the Eldar-Decurion seem like a very fluffy build, and they feel like a strong counter to the new Necrons (can engage them further than 24", can take Str D weapons which are the only things that can ignore the Reanimation Protocols), which all makes sense. If every codex here-out gets an absurdly powerful fluff-build, then that's cool, and we simply have to grit our teeth for up to 2 years for your codex to get the Decurion treatment.

My biggest fear now is that every "bad" codex is just going to stay bad. That it really is just a massive nerd-on for Necrons and Eldar, and everyone else's Decurion-like codex will be terrible. If their strategy is to make super-powered fluff builds, but then see the backlash that Necrons and Eldar get as a sign that they need to tone every other codex down, then we'll just be back where we started.

Seriously - the Necron, Eldar, and Space Marine codexes last time were much more powerful than everything else they released. Everyone got upset (understandably), and maybe that's why the other codexes started getting the "oh we better not make them too strong" approach. Then they creeped it up again until it hits the high of Necron, Eldar, and Space Marine codexes again, and then plummets down again? That'd be terrible. I hope after this codex that all the rest coming forward will be this powerful! I hope that I can rain a BILLION Tyranids from the sky, in addition to massively powerful Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures, because that's what the fluff is.

It is weird that it loops like that - I have found that over the years as well.

That being said, maybe my old as bike marines will get shred bolters and bikes will no longer need to snap fire when jinking. Hell maybe space marines will get two wounds each... or bikes become toughness 6.... sigh....