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hotsauceman1 wrote: Oh well, I play itc format and they banned range d, so I don't have to worry, I'm sure we can curve thisvtoo.
Pretty sure that's going away.
Uh...that's brand new this tournament season actually. Was just voted for and enacted like...a week or two ago.
And I would be perfectly happy if the ITC guys were to muck around under the game's hood a bit more liberally so that every tourney isn't constantly won by the same 2 or 3 armies, sometimes getting an upset by one of another 3 or so.
Just like some people are considering not playing against eldar, I just won't play ITC format tournaments as long as they're going to drop the banhammer on everything. How many armies with ranged D weapons dominated an ITC event last year? How about invisibility? WOTC bans cards when they dominate the meta, not when they're just good but can be countered. Wave serpents were far more dominant than ranged D weapons, especially considering 90% of ranged D is a LOW slot, and 75% of those cost too many points to be taken in ITC due to the LOW points comp.
If the codex is this broken and nothing indicates it won't be. I WON'T play Eldar at all. If it is broken and it will be nerf nuke as I said earlier will be needed.
There are 2 general feelings I want to address here. Firstly there is the point that people are suggesting it might not be so bad if it is not that easy to access D weapons for that AT... Have we forgotten Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, WarpSpiders and st8 and st9 lances avaliable to the majority of Eldar units?
Second, people keep pointing out pod armies as a counter. I pointed out earlier on that if you take 3 full strength sternguard units (the best counter arguably), you will kill 13 bike on average. The remaining 27 bikes will kill 20 sternguard on average. Leaving the rest of the eldar force to deal with the remaining unit. So the marine player will be left with scraps of the first half of their army (if not tabled) before the second half even sets foot on the battle field. Not a great trade for an average of 13 jetbikes.
Yeah everyone saying that it's fine because there are counters to Jetbikes, well yeah there are. But their Jetbikes are cheap enough that they can also fit in a bunch of stuff to counter your counters. I said that earlier specifically saying that they might be able to spam D weapons alongside the Jetbikes, but that was like a worst case scenario, even if they can't there's still a whole bunch of other effective stuff to take out anything you bring to deal with the Jetbikes.
Punishers with HB sponsons, 6 in for a bit less than the 1080. 174 shots 87 hits 57.4 wounds 18.9 unsaved wounds they delete almost 2 squads per turn if they can get in range. Only weakness to the bikes is on rear armor, which the bikes would delete almost 11 LRBT's a turn with the full 160 shots, but if you can make the terrain work it would be a pretty good counter. Hell use the saved points for an ADLand park with your backs to it. Or roll the LRBT's butt to butt across the board. Sure the other guy has 800 points of anti-tank to work with. But you have the same points to take out whatever their counter is. Or go with the ADL idea and use the cover save and pray you survive. Not saying its ideal but its a pretty good counter in a vacuum. Slow-moving and not obsec, but a counter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 07:54:33
Azreal13 wrote: Not that it matters because given the amount of interbreeding that went on with that lot I'm pretty sure the Queen is her own Uncle.
BA 6000; 1250
Really this thread just failed on about 3 levels, you should all feel bad and do better.-motyak
ImAGeek wrote: Yeah everyone saying that it's fine because there are counters to Jetbikes, well yeah there are. But their Jetbikes are cheap enough that they can also fit in a bunch of stuff to counter your counters. I said that earlier specifically saying that they might be able to spam D weapons alongside the Jetbikes, but that was like a worst case scenario, even if they can't there's still a whole bunch of other effective stuff to take out anything you bring to deal with the Jetbikes.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: they delete almost 2 squads per turn if they can get in range.
And they will never get in range, so this comparison is pointless. A unit with 6" movement speed and 24" range will never get to shoot at a unit with 12" movement speed, 36" range, and 2D6" JSJ after shooting.
Plus, good luck winning the game after D-weapon spam kills your LRBTs just as easily as they'd kill grots.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Toofast wrote: Just like some people are considering not playing against eldar, I just won't play ITC format tournaments as long as they're going to drop the banhammer on everything. How many armies with ranged D weapons dominated an ITC event last year? How about invisibility? WOTC bans cards when they dominate the meta, not when they're just good but can be countered. Wave serpents were far more dominant than ranged D weapons, especially considering 90% of ranged D is a LOW slot, and 75% of those cost too many points to be taken in ITC due to the LOW points comp.
I can point out a specific couple instances where that isn't true. WOTC banned fact or fiction in vintage as soon as they released it because they knew it would combo too well and break the game. When they accidentally messed up and released skull clamp, they sent it packing asap, being one of the few "banned in standard" cards to exist in modern magic, and they didn't wait to see how the meta would deal with it before doing it. I'm not sure about any others, because I haven't been in the tourney magic scene in several years. (I did spend my time top 8ing PTQ's and did a year as a DCI judge.)
As has been said many times, even by themselves, GW takes no interest in making a fair balanced game between the different armies. The ITC guys seem to be trying to preserve the game as much as possible, while surgically extracting the bits of NOPE that GW left in there. I believe the game NEEDS a balancing force like this. Sometimes that means that ridic stuff just needs to be amputated to save the rest. So be it. I think ranged D is one of those things, and invis is another.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 08:18:46
Toofast wrote: How many armies with ranged D weapons dominated an ITC event last year?
Weren't D-weapons already banned (or at least only available on the bad LOW options like the Shadowsword)? It's kind of hard to dominate events when you can't use something.
How about invisibility?
Who really cares? Even if invisibility is somehow balanced in theory playing against it isn't even close to fun for most people. Modifying it a bit to keep the basic concept but remove the worst of GW's stupidity is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
ImAGeek wrote: Yeah everyone saying that it's fine because there are counters to Jetbikes, well yeah there are. But their Jetbikes are cheap enough that they can also fit in a bunch of stuff to counter your counters. I said that earlier specifically saying that they might be able to spam D weapons alongside the Jetbikes, but that was like a worst case scenario, even if they can't there's still a whole bunch of other effective stuff to take out anything you bring to deal with the Jetbikes.
Agreed heartily. It's just normal army design for me to spend 1/2 to 2/3 of my points on my attack strategy, and then the rest on things to stop things that would hard counter my strategy.
For just one example that doesn't really cost anything, the bikes could easily pull some reserve shenanigans if you have a devastating alpha strike, such as pods.
Toofast wrote: In casual games I can see why people have a problem with invisibility. In tournaments it isn't that much of an issue.
I guess nobody cares about having fun in your tournaments?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Nearly any issue I have ever witnessed playing 40K has been at the FLGS. The best 40K I get to play is at larger, two day events. Win or lose, they have always been a much better and more enjoyable experience.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
LordBlades wrote: Or rather most top players draw most of their fun from winning. You don't enlist in a tournament to have fun games, you enlist in a tournament to win.
But what's the point of winning if the whole thing is just a masochism contest? You're certainly not making any money playing 40k, so is having a 'W' mark next to your name really so enjoyable that it justifies 2-3 hours of a terrible game?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
LordBlades wrote: Or rather most top players draw most of their fun from winning. You don't enlist in a tournament to have fun games, you enlist in a tournament to win.
But what's the point of winning if the whole thing is just a masochism contest? You're certainly not making any money playing 40k, so is having a 'W' mark next to your name really so enjoyable that it justifies 2-3 hours of a terrible game?
Some people get their kicks from pulling the wings off of flies.
LordBlades wrote: Or rather most top players draw most of their fun from winning. You don't enlist in a tournament to have fun games, you enlist in a tournament to win.
But what's the point of winning if the whole thing is just a masochism contest? You're certainly not making any money playing 40k, so is having a 'W' mark next to your name really so enjoyable that it justifies 2-3 hours of a terrible game?
The confirmation that you really ARE as good as you think you are, the fame (even if in a pretty smalk and niche community), or simply the 'I won' feeling are valid reasons for satisfaction for more people than you think.
I used to play competitive DotA a long time ago. I was not into it for the fun of actually playimg competitive DotA games (I found them relatively unfun and I had tons more fun owning some randoms with a hero I actually enjoyed playing). I was into it for the above feelings, which were not directly related to the game itself. The only competitive thing from the game itself that I enjoying was the team comp and hero build strategy we used to do.
The confirmation that you really ARE as good as you think you are, the fame (even if in a pretty smalk and niche community), or simply the 'I won' feeling are valid reasons for satisfaction for more people than you think.
The point is that 'fame', 'I won' and stuff is a bit diminished when you're playing eldar.
The confirmation that you really ARE as good as you think you are, the fame (even if in a pretty smalk and niche community), or simply the 'I won' feeling are valid reasons for satisfaction for more people than you think.
The point is that 'fame', 'I won' and stuff is a bit diminished when you're playing eldar.
Not really. You're not tryingto be the underdog and win, you're just trying to win. As such, using the best tools at your disposal is only logical. If you beat a non-eldar as an eldar you're simply proving you're better than your opponent at list building. Which is still winning.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 10:43:46
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
BlaxicanX wrote: It really isn't, because everyone else beside you can (and many in fact do) play Eldar as well in tournaments.
Arguably it still is. 'I was lucky enough to go first and crippled the enemy army turn 1' is still not something to boast with, even if it is Eldar VS Eldar.
I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a
The confirmation that you really ARE as good as you think you are, the fame (even if in a pretty smalk and niche community), or simply the 'I won' feeling are valid reasons for satisfaction for more people than you think.
The point is that 'fame', 'I won' and stuff is a bit diminished when you're playing eldar.
Not really. You're not tryingto be the underdog and win, you're just trying to win. As such, using the best tools at your disposal is only logical. If you beat a non-eldar with a bat you're simply proving you're better than your opponent at list building. Which is still winning.
Fixed dat for you.
Also, there's even a special term for players that absolutely don't care about the fun of others.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 10:51:14
The confirmation that you really ARE as good as you think you are, the fame (even if in a pretty smalk and niche community), or simply the 'I won' feeling are valid reasons for satisfaction for more people than you think.
The point is that 'fame', 'I won' and stuff is a bit diminished when you're playing eldar.
Not really. You're not tryingto be the underdog and win, you're just trying to win. As such, using the best tools at your disposal is only logical. If you beat a non-eldar with a bat you're simply proving you're better than your opponent at list building. Which is still winning.
Fixed dat for you.
Also, there's even a special term for players that absolutely don't care about the fun of others.
Do you really expect that your opponent at a tournament is there to make sure you have fun? No, he's there to beat you, as thoroughly and expediently as he is able
In casual games you have a point, but not at tournaments.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 10:56:27
Do you really expect that your opponent at a tournament is there to make sure you have fun? No, he's there to beat you, as thoroughly and expediently as he is able
In casual games you have a point, but not at tournaments.
Which would not be a point, if there was a difference between tournament and non tournament armies people play with.
Well, I hope that this is a typo, too.
But it appears its already confirmed.
This is crazy. We Eldar players never asked for something like this.
We just wanted our Serpents back, without shield or holofield.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
20000+ points
BA 6000; 
1250
15k+
3k+
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."