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What's the limit in the Eldar CAD / Decurion equivelent of how many Jetbikes can be taken, how many squads, and how many in each squad?

 Blacksails wrote:
I am loving the people who claim this is a reasonable and not too unbalanced change for the Eldar.

The delusion is strong.

Then again, its a great example of just how bad the power creep has become when people are honestly under the impression there are reasonable counters.

There are reasonable counters even if you choose to ignore them not all of them that have been mentioned are unreasonable. And its not delusion as you so claim its based around facts and from player experiences when facing the Eldar. Besides the different weapon loadout options they have not changed when it comes to their durability. So T4 with a 3+ Save, 1 Wound and can Jink. My Tank heavy IG army will be able to handle that quite easily thanks to front armor 14 and deploying smartly. My Tau with Missile Pod Suits backed up by Marker Lights can trade shots with them and duck behind cover or LOS blocking terrain or even the "Fish of Fury" lists will be fine as well thanks to Armor 13. Even nastier are the Riptide variants from Forgeworld, R'Varnas slaughter Jetbikes thanks to their "hits a bike sized model twice" rule and the Y'Varhas AP2 Flame Template will slaughter them as well. The point im trying to make is that this is happening, wether you guys like it or not so there is no point complaining about it especially since its not the complete picture of the entire Eldar army. Instead why not discuss ways to try and deal with this and potential counters (because they DO exist) so we can face the oncoming storm somewhat better.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I am loving the people who claim this is a reasonable and not too unbalanced change for the Eldar.

The delusion is strong.

Then again, its a great example of just how bad the power creep has become when people are honestly under the impression there are reasonable counters.

There are reasonable counters even if you choose to ignore them not all of them that have been mentioned are unreasonable. And its not delusion as you so claim its based around facts and from player experiences when facing the Eldar. Besides the different weapon loadout options they have not changed when it comes to their durability. So T4 with a 3+ Save, 1 Wound and can Jink. My Tank heavy IG army will be able to handle that quite easily thanks to front armor 14 and deploying smartly. My Tau with Missile Pod Suits backed up by Marker Lights can trade shots with them and duck behind cover or LOS blocking terrain after they do or even "Fish of Fury" lists will be fine as well thanks to Armor 13. Even nastier are the Riptide variants from Forgeworld, R'Varnas slaughter Jetbikes thanks to their "hits a bike sized model twice" rule and the Y'Varhas AP2 Flame Template will slaughter them as well.

So you're just compeltely ignoring what I said earlier about Eldar also being able to take things to counter those? Cool.

You guys, they can't be that hard to beat. They're stupid fairy space elves, they serve as the dorks of 40k. Obviously, they should be easy enough to pound into the ground, and then the rest of us can go back to praising the Emprah.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Ferros wrote:
I agree its a unit with huge damage output but also incredibly fragile in terms of defense and Ld. Spam large blasts, flyers, or MSU of high strength (Destroyers, missile pods, etc). Either they jink and neuter themselves or risk Ld tests. Go get your your artillery on.

Good luck when Fire Dragons or D weapon wraith units take out your artillery, or their flyers take out yours...

Well I suppose if you're assuming the only one doing anything is the Eldar player and throw in an extra unit or two to counter my point, that works.

Lets pretend for a minute that they have no save, no access to jink, and T1. They have a 36" range and jsj. But one more thing that is WAY more important to their durability is that they are troops that can be included in squads of 3-10. That means you can have 12 units of 3 in 2 CAD. Even in one CAD people will probably run 6 units of 5. Yes IF you kill 3 and IF you make 7 run away that's a decent result. But people won't be including units of 10 most likely. They won't need to. If you make a couple run away, it doesn't look so rosy anymore. And can we stop acting like JBs have ld5 please?

Then I'll take MSU of Destroyers / Heavy Destroyers. I suggested a change to the assumed tactic of 5-10 jetbikes. If you change the situation, I can change my counter. That's how things work.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I am loving the people who claim this is a reasonable and not too unbalanced change for the Eldar.

The delusion is strong.

Then again, its a great example of just how bad the power creep has become when people are honestly under the impression there are reasonable counters.

There are reasonable counters even if you choose to ignore them not all of them that have been mentioned are unreasonable. And its not delusion as you so claim its based around facts and from player experiences when facing the Eldar. Besides the different weapon loadout options they have not changed when it comes to their durability. So T4 with a 3+ Save, 1 Wound and can Jink. My Tank heavy IG army will be able to handle that quite easily thanks to front armor 14 and deploying smartly.

Yes, your AV14 tanks won't have face much threat from the Eldar, but Eldar have a glut of tools with which to remove AV14, even moreso now it would appear, while other units will be absurdly

I play tank heavy IG, I've run FW AB's, codex Mechanized armies, and IA12 assault brigades. Judging from what we've seen, unless there are radical increases in cost and Jetbikes go down to a 4+ save (I think this was already debunked?) then I don't think I could reliably beat a well built Eldar army. Could I hurt it? Sure. Could I make it take casualties? Sure. But it'll be more mobile, with more firepower, and unfortunately, more resiliency than anything I can pack into an IG army.

We'll see what the codex ultimately looks like, but unless there's been some very radical nerfs that we don't know about, I very much thing that there's going to be a huge imbalance.

We saw many of these exact same "adapt" and "wait and see" arguments when the last Eldar codex came out, and when Necrons came out, and they ultimately turned out to be about as bad as expected.

Gmaleron you are right and very very wrong. Counters exist. Counters do not exist for everyone. You are suggesting orks and bids can go jump in a lake for being poor casual peasant lists and not having something in the toolbox for everything. Besides you are living in pure fantasy land where your opponent hands you his list and you play a week later with a tailored one. Of course it can be dealt with, but not with a list that has a chance against everything. This is more people sick to death of the further killing of the fun take all comers style game. People aren't complaining about eldar right now, rather they are lementing the absolute flushing of the game down the crapper by GW that this portents.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I am loving the people who claim this is a reasonable and not too unbalanced change for the Eldar.

The delusion is strong.

Then again, its a great example of just how bad the power creep has become when people are honestly under the impression there are reasonable counters.

There are reasonable counters even if you choose to ignore them not all of them that have been mentioned are unreasonable. And its not delusion as you so claim its based around facts and from player experiences when facing the Eldar. Besides the different weapon loadout options they have not changed when it comes to their durability. So T4 with a 3+ Save, 1 Wound and can Jink. My Tank heavy IG army will be able to handle that quite easily thanks to front armor 14 and deploying smartly. My Tau with Missile Pod Suits backed up by Marker Lights can trade shots with them and duck behind cover or LOS blocking terrain after they do or even "Fish of Fury" lists will be fine as well thanks to Armor 13. Even nastier are the Riptide variants from Forgeworld, R'Varnas slaughter Jetbikes thanks to their "hits a bike sized model twice" rule and the Y'Varhas AP2 Flame Template will slaughter them as well.

Most of the people who are complaining, are the same folks who feel that 6e wave serpents or Wraiths are unbeatable. What it comes down to is that these units -- and probably the new jetbike -- are easy to play, thus making crappy players able to overperform, and this hurts some people's sensibilities. As you say, lots of shots from a T4 3+ save and 36" range is not THAT awesome unbeatable.

Let's also put it into perspective: would you rather have 30 windriders, or 6 current-edition wave serpents? To me, the 60" range is and holo fields are more of a threat -- though the map and terrain would change that calculation, for sure.

At the end of the day, if someone takes a spammy list, they start off at a disadvantage, because before they deploy, you can pretty much guess what will do. Of course, there are bad matchups. But, if you have a decent list, and you're a good player with flexibility and ability think beyond "inch forward and shoot", you'll have a good win ratio.

If you're a bad player, don't want to get better, but want to win a disproportionate number of games relative to your skill level, then yeah, take a spammy easy to play list.

What part about the jet bikes only being a part of the Eldar army are you struggling with? Tanks are not going to become good. They currently are not good, and they certainly won't become better after jet bikes are let loose.

We're talking about Troop choices with S6 4 shot guns at BS4 on a platform that can pop out of cover and back into it in the same turn, that has a 3+ save and 4+ jink save on demand, with 36" range, the ability to turbo-boost, and available in small or large squad sizes.

At 27ppm.

I hope you at the very least think its ridiculous, incredibly poor on GW's part, and not worth the asking price for the book to get such shoddy writing. That much I hope we can agree on.

 Talys wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I am loving the people who claim this is a reasonable and not too unbalanced change for the Eldar.

The delusion is strong.

Then again, its a great example of just how bad the power creep has become when people are honestly under the impression there are reasonable counters.

There are reasonable counters even if you choose to ignore them not all of them that have been mentioned are unreasonable. And its not delusion as you so claim its based around facts and from player experiences when facing the Eldar. Besides the different weapon loadout options they have not changed when it comes to their durability. So T4 with a 3+ Save, 1 Wound and can Jink. My Tank heavy IG army will be able to handle that quite easily thanks to front armor 14 and deploying smartly. My Tau with Missile Pod Suits backed up by Marker Lights can trade shots with them and duck behind cover or LOS blocking terrain after they do or even "Fish of Fury" lists will be fine as well thanks to Armor 13. Even nastier are the Riptide variants from Forgeworld, R'Varnas slaughter Jetbikes thanks to their "hits a bike sized model twice" rule and the Y'Varhas AP2 Flame Template will slaughter them as well.

Most of the people who are complaining, are the same folks who feel that 6e wave serpents or Wraiths are unbeatable. What it comes down to is that these units -- and probably the new jetbike -- are easy to play, thus making crappy players able to overperform, and this hurts some people's sensibilities. As you say, lots of shots from a T4 3+ save and 36" range is not THAT awesome unbeatable.

Let's also put it into perspective: would you rather have 30 windriders, or 6 current-edition wave serpents? To me, the 60" range is and holo fields are more of a threat -- though the map and terrain would change that calculation, for sure.

At the end of the day, if someone takes a spammy list, they start off at a disadvantage, because before they deploy, you can pretty much guess what will do. Of course, there are bad matchups. But, if you have a decent list, and you're a good player with flexibility and ability think beyond "inch forward and shoot", you'll have a good win ratio.

If you're a bad player, don't want to get better, but want to win a disproportionate number of games relative to your skill level, then yeah, take a spammy easy to play list.

That applies if their whole list is spammy, but Eldar players will have the points alongside the jetbike spam to field other things.

And I don't think anyone actually thinks they're literally unbeatable. But they are far, far too good for the points you're paying. It's nothing to do with 'my sensibilities being hurt because a crappy player beat me', it's the fact that the game just got even more stupidly unbalanced. Also, the counters peop,e keep suggesting are either 1. Not reliable, or 2. Not available to everyone. So... Some people will have a chance, others won't. Hardly a better situation.

When there's a 20 page thread complaining about a unit, I think it's safe to say something is wrong with the unit. Use all the 'everyone's overreacting' you want to, there's no smoke without fire.

 Orock wrote:
Gmaleron you are right and very very wrong. Counters exist. Counters do not exist for everyone. You are suggesting orks and bids can go jump in a lake for being poor casual peasant lists and not having something in the toolbox for everything. Besides you are living in pure fantasy land where your opponent hands you his list and you play a week later with a tailored one. Of course it can be dealt with, but not with a list that has a chance against everything. This is more people sick to death of the further killing of the fun take all comers style game. People aren't complaining about eldar right now, rather they are lementing the absolute flushing of the game down the crapper by GW that this portents.

The practical reality of a lot of people who show up to play at an FLGS for pickup games is that they don't have such a variety of models that you can't predict what they're going to play. Plus, if you decide to show up with a spammy, un-fun list, chances are, you won't get very many games, so that doesn't help you very much. Most of the people who have tons of models that I know don't play very many public pickup games, because by then they've formed their private play groups. And there, the last thing you want is to be called TFG.

It's like the guy who wants to play wave serpents on a terrain empty table and hug the back edge. Yay for him, too bad he'll hate the game because nobody wants to play him. I mean, what's the point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:

That applies if their whole list is spammy, but Eldar players will have the points alongside the jetbike spam to field other things.

And I don't think anyone actually thinks they're literally unbeatable. But they are far, far too good for the points you're paying. It's nothing to do with 'my sensibilities being hurt because a crappy player beat me', it's the fact that the game just got even more stupidly unbalanced.

When there's a 20 page thread complaining about a unit, I think it's safe to say something is wrong with the unit.

Yes, I agree: Windriders with shuriken cannons or scatter lasers look too good for 27 points. But frankly, the old ones were too good too, and the wave serpents were too good.... and all sorts of eldar stuff seems too good. I mean, Battle Focus all by itself is insanely good. It's better than any chapter tactic, and it's better than DE Power from Pain... it's even arguably better than RP. It remains to be seen, though, whether everything is STILL too good.

Oh yes, wouldn't it be funny if Battle Focus got nerfed?

 Ferros wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Ferros wrote:
I agree its a unit with huge damage output but also incredibly fragile in terms of defense and Ld. Spam large blasts, flyers, or MSU of high strength (Destroyers, missile pods, etc). Either they jink and neuter themselves or risk Ld tests. Go get your your artillery on.

Good luck when Fire Dragons or D weapon wraith units take out your artillery, or their flyers take out yours...

Well I suppose if you're assuming the only one doing anything is the Eldar player and throw in an extra unit or two to counter my point, that works.

Lets pretend for a minute that they have no save, no access to jink, and T1. They have a 36" range and jsj. But one more thing that is WAY more important to their durability is that they are troops that can be included in squads of 3-10. That means you can have 12 units of 3 in 2 CAD. Even in one CAD people will probably run 6 units of 5. Yes IF you kill 3 and IF you make 7 run away that's a decent result. But people won't be including units of 10 most likely. They won't need to. If you make a couple run away, it doesn't look so rosy anymore. And can we stop acting like JBs have ld5 please?

Then I'll take MSU of Destroyers / Heavy Destroyers. I suggested a change to the assumed tactic of 5-10 jetbikes. If you change the situation, I can change my counter. That's how things work.

Your premise was that you'd be making them jink and force ld tests. That doesn't mean much at all to MSU 3 man bike squads. The fact that they can be taken as 3 man squads and you hadn't considered that doesn't mean we should ignore that when discussing how broken they are.

 Talys wrote:


Let's also put it into perspective: would you rather have 30 windriders, or 6 current-edition wave serpents? To me, the 60" range is and holo fields are more of a threat -- though the map and terrain would change that calculation, for sure.

I would rather face the serpents


30 windriders is 810 points. You cannot get 6 current edition WS for 810 points with the troops inside to field them.
30 windriders have 120 shots. Serpent shields ignore cover, and the serpents guns are twin linked and hit more(after the laser lock), but they dont get 20 shots each, or rather they dont get 13.3 hits each.

Poly Ranger wrote:


Your premise was that you'd be making them jink and force ld tests. That doesn't mean much at all to MSU 3 man bike squads. The fact that they can be taken as 3 man squads and you hadn't considered that doesn't mean we should ignore that when discussing how broken they are.

You can't have it both ways. If you take them as 3man squads, you won't have very many jetbikes.

I will bet dollars to donuts that everyone will want to play a Guardian Host, rather than CAD -- in the same way Decurion is so much better than CAD.

 Talys wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:


Your premise was that you'd be making them jink and force ld tests. That doesn't mean much at all to MSU 3 man bike squads. The fact that they can be taken as 3 man squads and you hadn't considered that doesn't mean we should ignore that when discussing how broken they are.

You can't have it both ways. If you take them as 3man squads, you won't have very many jetbikes.

I will bet dollars to donuts that everyone will want to play a Guardian Host, rather than CAD -- in the same way Decurion is so much better than CAD.

Do you really think that running the jetbikes as Windrider Hosts(the Guardian Battlehost variant) is going to have minimal unit sizes for the jetbikes?

Formation restrictions very rarely mandate you take a minimum unit size that is the minimum.

Talys - WS were broken, but they were beatable, we made lists with serp spam in mind. Same with knights and wraiths. We never thought they were unbeatable, just OP.

This is in an entirely different league. This is what Real Madrid are in comparison to Rotherham FC. This is above and beyond anything the previously mentioned units even hinted at. This isn't the case of 'same old, same old'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course you can take lots of 3 man jetbike squads - they're troops!!!

 Exergy wrote:

 Talys wrote:


Let's also put it into perspective: would you rather have 30 windriders, or 6 current-edition wave serpents? To me, the 60" range is and holo fields are more of a threat -- though the map and terrain would change that calculation, for sure.

I would rather face the serpents


30 windriders is 810 points. You cannot get 6 current edition WS for 810 points with the troops inside to field them.
30 windriders have 120 shots. Serpent shields ignore cover, and the serpents guns are twin linked and hit more(after the laser lock), but they dont get 20 shots each, or rather they dont get 13.3 hits each.

The troops inside the serpents have value -- they aren't just tax. Serpents have 60" range, or effectively line of sight on a 6x4 table. 36", even with JSJ isn't that at all.

I'm not suggesting that either is fun to play against; just that they're going to probably be losing something really good. If they get something else really good in its place -- then all GW has accomplished is getting people to buy a bunch of new models at $0.50 per point. Yay.

 Orock wrote:
Gmaleron you are right and very very wrong. Counters exist. Counters do not exist for everyone. You are suggesting orks and bids can go jump in a lake for being poor casual peasant lists and not having something in the toolbox for everything. Besides you are living in pure fantasy land where your opponent hands you his list and you play a week later with a tailored one. Of course it can be dealt with, but not with a list that has a chance against everything. This is more people sick to death of the further killing of the fun take all comers style game. People aren't complaining about eldar right now, rather they are lementing the absolute flushing of the game down the crapper by GW that this portents.

Never did I say that "counters exist for everyone" and I am not living in a "fantasy land" as you so call it. Yes this army will be a hard counter to some other armies like they themselves will face armies that will hard counter them. All I said was that instead of going on about it with a "game over, game over man" mentality is the wrong way to go about it, especially since we do not have a clear picture of the entire Codex, we have a small snippet from a White Dwarf. Not once have I said or even insinuated that the Eldar are not going to be a tough matchup or that Jetbikes may be difficult to face. All I stated where ways that I have found to deal with Jetbike/Bike armies with my own and feel confident that they can do it against the new Eldar book as well. If they don't? Guess what Ill change up my list and tactics, its that easy. Going on about how "this is ruining the game" and getting upset over something when we don't have a complete picture on it is the wrong way to go about this and Talys is completely right. Whenever there is a new release almost people always seem to psych themselves out and fear its going to be worse then it actually is. If you want to keep lamenting this news and go on about how stupid you feel this is then that's fine, not at all trying to stop you and more power to you, but don't get mad that I don't agree with you.

 Exergy wrote:
I would rather face the serpents
30 windriders is 810 points. You cannot get 6 current edition WS for 810 points with the troops inside to field them.
30 windriders have 120 shots. Serpent shields ignore cover, and the serpents guns are twin linked and hit more(after the laser lock), but they dont get 20 shots each, or rather they dont get 13.3 hits each.

-This is assuming that they have not changed or got rid of the Serpent Shield, for all we know it doesn't exist anymore. Again we don't know all the facts so we need to stick to the ones that we already know.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Talys - WS were broken, but they were beatable, we made lists with serp spam in mind. Same with knights and wraiths. We never thought they were unbeatable, just OP.

This is in an entirely different league. This is what Real Madrid are in comparison to Rotherham FC. This is above and beyond anything the previously mentioned units even hinted at. This isn't the case of 'same old, same old'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course you can take lots of 3 man jetbike squads - they're troops!!!

Well, you won't get the Guardian Host buff, though (whatever that is). For all you know, you will need to be in a Guardian Host in order to get Battle Focus (kind of like you need to be in a Maniple to get the buffs for Skitarri).

I do get it, that this seems like a pretty good buff. If you want to see how it will play out, just use existing 6e rules, and use markers for a bunch of windriders (presuming you don't own a bazillion of the old jetbikes). I haven't actually tried it yet, but may do that next week with some friends against a variety of top-tier armies to see how it plays out. I just kind of think that this, like WS and Wraiths are OP -- but not unbeatable (by a long shot). But I'm eager to see how it pans out in actual games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
-This is assuming that they have not changed or got rid of the Serpent Shield, for all we know it doesn't exist anymore. Again we don't know all the facts so we need to stick to the ones that we already know.

I would bet that Eldar gets the MSS treatment -- the GW hand taketh from the Serpent and giveth to the winderider. Look how many spiders, tomb blades, and wraiths they sold, lol. My store has been sold out of tomb blades from release of Necron codex until just last week, and spiders were sold out for at least a month or two, hahaha. There's no way Wave Serpents remain "great" because then people wouldn't run out to buy FoTM models!

Anyway my entire point was saying that IF we ignore the fact that jetbikes are t4 3+ with jink and 36" range with jsj, and IF you cause them to fail a ld test then it won't necessarily matter because they can be taken in smaller squads.
However jetbikes DO have T4, DO have 3+, DO have jink, DO have 36" range, DO have jsj and DO have ld8. So yeh - even getting to the point where youbare arguing with me about the size of the squad means you have ignored all of that.
Also with the fact that you can take multiple detachments, even if you did take a decurion, you could supplement it with a normal cad and max out on min jet bikes, since, you know, they are troops.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
I would rather face the serpents
30 windriders is 810 points. You cannot get 6 current edition WS for 810 points with the troops inside to field them.
30 windriders have 120 shots. Serpent shields ignore cover, and the serpents guns are twin linked and hit more(after the laser lock), but they dont get 20 shots each, or rather they dont get 13.3 hits each.

-This is assuming that they have not changed or got rid of the Serpent Shield, for all we know it doesn't exist anymore. Again we don't know all the facts so we need to stick to the ones that we already know.

Talys said current edition WS, so they do have SS and we do know all the facts.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Anyway my entire point was saying that IF we ignore the fact that jetbikes are t4 3+ with jink and 36" range with jsj, and IF you cause them to fail a ld test then it won't necessarily matter because they can be taken in smaller squads.
However jetbikes DO have T4, DO have 3+, DO have jink, DO have 36" range, DO have jsj and DO have ld8. So yeh - even getting to the point where youbare arguing with me about the size of the squad means you have ignored all of that.
Also with the fact that you can take multiple detachments, even if you did take a decurion, you could supplement it with a normal cad and max out on min jet bikes, since, you know, they are troops.

Yes, being troops is a huge advantage (though, of course, the OLD jetbikes were also troops, and were not slouches either).

 Talys wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Anyway my entire point was saying that IF we ignore the fact that jetbikes are t4 3+ with jink and 36" range with jsj, and IF you cause them to fail a ld test then it won't necessarily matter because they can be taken in smaller squads.
However jetbikes DO have T4, DO have 3+, DO have jink, DO have 36" range, DO have jsj and DO have ld8. So yeh - even getting to the point where youbare arguing with me about the size of the squad means you have ignored all of that.
Also with the fact that you can take multiple detachments, even if you did take a decurion, you could supplement it with a normal cad and max out on min jet bikes, since, you know, they are troops.

Yes, being troops is a huge advantage (though, of course, the OLD jetbikes were also troops, and were not slouches either).

But that's exactly the point... They were already excellent, now they're ridiculous.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Anyway my entire point was saying that IF we ignore the fact that jetbikes are t4 3+ with jink and 36" range with jsj, and IF you cause them to fail a ld test then it won't necessarily matter because they can be taken in smaller squads.
However jetbikes DO have T4, DO have 3+, DO have jink, DO have 36" range, DO have jsj and DO have ld8. So yeh - even getting to the point where youbare arguing with me about the size of the squad means you have ignored all of that.
Also with the fact that you can take multiple detachments, even if you did take a decurion, you could supplement it with a normal cad and max out on min jet bikes, since, you know, they are troops.

Jetbikes currently already have T4, 3+ With Jink can JSJ and are LD 8 and are Troops and they are not invincible, so the only thing that is changing is a 36 inch range. Also tables are not infinitely huge and though it is a good solid range band it is not impossible to be in range of them on turn 1 especially with how the deployments are set up in the Rulebook.

Here's hoping that every tactical marine in the next codex can take a multilaser (shudders at that old blood angel's novel)

So we're in agreement then?

I still cannot get my head around this. Do they not realise that in pushing JB sales they will actually reduce sales across other armies as players get fed up and put off.

I honestly think soon, it will only be the fluff proping 40k sales up. The cron dex was a step in power creep, but it looks like the eldar will be a giant stride.

I had been pretty excited about how GW has been managing the rulesets for 40k. There was a little bit of a flub with the canoptek harvest formation, but that was forgivable. We had seen interesting and balanced codexes from Harlies, Daemonkin, and Skitarii, (and necrons, minus canoptek harvest).

And now this... honestly, its a little depressing from a casual point of view. This might be the first time I will avoid and army if I see my opponent plot down a bunch of jetbikes. My Khorne Daemonkin list usually doesnt shy away from anything, but there will just be nothing I can do against that list.

Who wants to have fun just picking up your models for a couple of hours?


To be honest, this is the first time that GW has really rocked me with a rules choice. I cant help but wonder what they were thinking. I cant help but think that there was either a rush job, or something like an "FU" to upper management (ala the orignial clown nagash sculpt).

Poly Ranger wrote:
So we're in agreement then?

I still cannot get my head around this. Do they not realise that in pushing JB sales they will actually reduce sales across other armies as players get fed up and put off.

I honestly think soon, it will only be the fluff proping 40k sales up. The cron dex was a step in power creep, but it looks like the eldar will be a giant stride.

Again the rest of the book is not out yet so you are basing this off an incomplete picture. And for every player that is put off there will be one looking forward to the challenge, potentially interested in picking up an army of them or purchasing the needed stuff to counter them.

Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.
people have given plenty reasonable counters

where are you going to hide 40+ jet bikes.
Do you know whats going to happen if they even get touched by a moderate close combat unit, and they will get charged you cant put 40 bikes in place where they aren't going to get charged their's not enough room on the table.

Currently you can get a war walker with two scatter lasers, fleet and battle focus for 70pts or two sc for 60pts
you can't turbo boost but if you do that you cant fire.

So you paying (3-8) pts more per gun but you get a much more durable unit that is also fearless.
are war walkers currently tearing up the meta?

I'm not denying that their good units but their not going to ruin the tournament scene single single-handedly.

I think you should wait till you have played a few games before you throw your toys out the pram.

 gmaleron wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Anyway my entire point was saying that IF we ignore the fact that jetbikes are t4 3+ with jink and 36" range with jsj, and IF you cause them to fail a ld test then it won't necessarily matter because they can be taken in smaller squads.
However jetbikes DO have T4, DO have 3+, DO have jink, DO have 36" range, DO have jsj and DO have ld8. So yeh - even getting to the point where youbare arguing with me about the size of the squad means you have ignored all of that.
Also with the fact that you can take multiple detachments, even if you did take a decurion, you could supplement it with a normal cad and max out on min jet bikes, since, you know, they are troops.

Jetbikes currently already have T4, 3+ With Jink can JSJ and are LD 8 and are Troops and they are not invincible, so the only thing that is changing is a 36 inch range. Also tables are not infinitely huge and though it is a good solid range band it is not impossible to be in range of them on turn 1 especially with how the deployments are set up in the Rulebook.

That 36" range is a huge difference in gameplay turns, especially on a 12" move jsj unit. They are 27pts. They are not invincible you are correct. Neither are 24pt tac marines with a 48" 4 shot st6 ap6 assault weapon. But that would be absolutely stupid wouldn't it?