160 Str 6 shots for 1080 points....

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**kronk**

Naw wrote:
Seriously, those who defend these jetbikes, answer this.

Would it be ok if every marine biker was to get a cheap special weapon? Seriously?

It would be fine. They don't have JSJ and cost 50% more.

**Martel732**

raiden wrote:
BA list at 1850 I would run vs eldar-

Baal strike force
Option 1- (my preferred)
HQ- 162
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Fast attack-561
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
Elites-330
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Heavy support-390
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130

20pts left over.

List 2-
HQs-
ML2 lib w/ Gallans staff (goes with command squad) on bike-120
ML1 lib-65 (goes with random tac unit)
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130

FA-345
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod

Elites-495
Command squad w/ jump packs-125
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165

Heavy support-315
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105

FIrst off, those aren't TAC lists at all. What if you don't know you are playing against Eldar? I'm not able to list tailor. Ever. Secondly, I don't even think those are very good anti-Eldar lists. I can already envision Eldar intial deployments that would completely neuter your alpha strikes as well. Drop pods are very gimmicky.

**Exergy**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I have to ask what the point of the MoS is on the Havocs.

6 points of fluff. If they do end up in assault they will strike ahead of guardians and simo with aspect warriors.

Havocs have assault grenades, so clearly they are more suited to assault than Incubi, Flayed ones, and and genestealers.

**Martel732**

raiden wrote:
Toofast wrote:
Drop pod lists will be lucky to survive long enough for the second wave to come in. Even if you go first, you can't take out enough eldar to keep from being wiped. To those suggesting dreads, no tournament players (at least good ones) take dreads for a reason. 1 squad of jetbikes will glance one of those dreads to death in a turn. If you can't glance them with 810 points of bikes, I'm sure the 700 points of anti armor in the list will finish them off. Dreads aren't suddenly a good counter to the most broken troops in the history of 40k. They actually aren't a good counter to anything or you would see them in more than casual games.

fragcannons will hurt bikes. Alot.

2 templates at str6 rending. + a heavy flamer Str5 ap4. (coming at you twice)

the melta will take care of most AT, or, if its a wraith or sort, hurt it, The preds will be in range easily, pumping out a total of 6 str7 ap4 shots, and at worst, 9 str 5 ap4 shots not snap firing, if you can move 6" and shoot that jumps to 18 shots not snap firing.

The dreads don't have to live long, if they do it's icing. Or, let your infantry come in first, then drop the frags.

(Fragnaughts are extremely good for the points in pods)

Meh.

**Naw**

pretre wrote:
Naw wrote:
Seriously, those who defend these jetbikes, answer this.

Would it be ok if every marine biker was to get a cheap special weapon? Seriously?

I would say 'cheap heavy weapon'.

A better comparison is if every tactical marine got a relentless heavy bolter or assault cannon for 10 points.

I would be happy with grav guns but yeah, I meant heavies, ie. assault cannon.

**Ashiraya**

A heavy bolter is not even close to being on par with a scatter laser.

AP4 is nice, but one more shot and one more strength is still better.

**Jayden63**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:
Funny enough I rafher like my emperors children chances.

Spoiler:

MOS Lord on bike with burning brand.

Four units of 10 noise marines with two blastmasters, icon, rhino.

Five MOS bikers with two melta guns, icon.
Two helldrakes

Two maulerfiends
One unit of 6 mos havoks wirh reaper autocannons.

Its a lot of ap 3 flamer templates and ignores cover shooting. Also the assault elements will have the speed to keep up. Also everything will get two saves in the form of armor save and fnp or Inv and iwnd. Now I personally think people are jumping tbey gun on how much sD weapons will show up, but if the fear becomes reality then its not going to be fun no matter what you bring. Even IKs.

I have to ask what the point of the MoS is on the Havocs.

Wasted points on theme and fluff, these guys don't even get an icon, though if I have the extra points it never hurts. Everything in the army that can be marked is marked. Its the Emperor's Children way.

**pretre**

Ashiraya wrote:
A heavy bolter is not even close to being on par with a scatter laser.

AP4 is nice, but one more shot and one more strength is still better.

Yeah, Assault Cannon is almost there, but is more like a SC.

Heck, would you let marines have a scatter laser for 10 points each?

**Martel732**

There is no Imperial weapon as good as a scatter laser. That's just extra insult to injury.

**pretre**

Martel732 wrote:
There is no Imperial weapon as good as a scatter laser. That's just extra insult to injury.

Ohh. Would you give each tactical marine an exorcist missile launcher (D6 S8 AP1 Heavy) and relentless for 10 points?

That'd do it.

**ZebioLizard2**

Martel732 wrote:
There is no Imperial weapon as good as a scatter laser. That's just extra insult to injury.

Maybe CSM could instead have Hades Autocannons on their bikers for 10-15 points.

**pretre**

There we go.

Space Marine Bikers - 20 points and get a Exorcist ML for 10. Are now troops without an unlock character.

Sounds legit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
SOB, of course, don't get bikes but just can take 1 to 1 specials and heavies on BSS squads (including the ExoML) for +10 each.

**Mozzyfuzzy**

Better idea for Sisters, you don't have to take the sister carrying the weapon, you just get free floating, auto targeting guns for 5pts.

**pretre**

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Better idea for Sisters, you don't have to take the sister carrying the weapon, you just get free floating, auto targeting guns for 5pts.

That's not the same though.

**Requizen**

PandaHero wrote:
I like how people are still convince that those bike arent OP. Stop thinking you need to bring a Jetbike ARMY to make the OP. Stop thinking we don't have all information. Just realise something: A TROOP squad of these, will overpower any other TROOP of the game, points for points.
With the lack of real restriction of Ally or formation shenanigan, there is no need to pick your other toys from the Eldar book, hence why we don't care if we don't have info on the rest of the codex.
Give ANY army the BEST troop choice of the game (cost effective too), and it will obviously help them get to the top.

Personally, I'm not trying to convince people they're not OP. They are, it's extremely over the top. But rather than just having 25 pages of crying and threatening to quit, I thought it would be more constructive to think about how to deal with them. I'd rather not deal with them, I'd rather this wasn't happening in the first place. But, since it exists, the options are a) quit and bitch online about how much you hate GW or b) continue playing and figure out how to survive.

I'd personally rather do the latter, I haven't even been playing for 2 full years yet and spent a good chunk of change on the hobby, I'd rather not throw that all away because of one unit.

**pretre**

I think relatively few people are saying to throw it all away.

I've been playing for 15-16 years and am not saying that.

**Vaeleria**

Invisible Deathstrikes...Invisible Deathstrikes everywhere~

**Martel732**

Requizen wrote:
PandaHero wrote:
I like how people are still convince that those bike arent OP. Stop thinking you need to bring a Jetbike ARMY to make the OP. Stop thinking we don't have all information. Just realise something: A TROOP squad of these, will overpower any other TROOP of the game, points for points.
With the lack of real restriction of Ally or formation shenanigan, there is no need to pick your other toys from the Eldar book, hence why we don't care if we don't have info on the rest of the codex.
Give ANY army the BEST troop choice of the game (cost effective too), and it will obviously help them get to the top.

Personally, I'm not trying to convince people they're not OP. They are, it's extremely over the top. But rather than just having 25 pages of crying and threatening to quit, I thought it would be more constructive to think about how to deal with them. I'd rather not deal with them, I'd rather this wasn't happening in the first place. But, since it exists, the options are a) quit and bitch online about how much you hate GW or b) continue playing and figure out how to survive.

I'd personally rather do the latter, I haven't even been playing for 2 full years yet and spent a good chunk of change on the hobby, I'd rather not throw that all away because of one unit.

Quitting is a legitimate way to deal with them. At least until the 8th ed codex. There's a thing called a hiatus. I've taken three of them and I didn't throw anything away.

**Exergy**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
There is no Imperial weapon as good as a scatter laser. That's just extra insult to injury.

Maybe CSM could instead have Hades Autocannons on their bikers for 10-15 points.

I was thinking Reaper Autocannons

A reaper is less powerful than a scatterlaser, but it's close. Hades are flat out way better, +2 str, 2 better AP, and pinning.

**ZebioLizard2**

Exergy wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
There is no Imperial weapon as good as a scatter laser. That's just extra insult to injury.

Maybe CSM could instead have Hades Autocannons on their bikers for 10-15 points.

I was thinking Reaper Autocannons

A reaper is less powerful than a scatterlaser, but it's close. Hades are flat out way better, +2 str, 2 better AP, and pinning.

A reaper autocannon would just be the poor mans Serpent Shield, two shots? Meh, it's not close at all.

And that's the point, why not continue this escalation of heavy weapons? It's not like they apparently care for balance anymore, ability to summon warp storms for S: D please!

**PandaHero**

Personally, I'm not trying to convince people they're not OP. They are, it's extremely over the top. But rather than just having 25 pages of crying and threatening to quit, I thought it would be more constructive to think about how to deal with them. I'd rather not deal with them, I'd rather this wasn't happening in the first place. But, since it exists, the options are a) quit and bitch online about how much you hate GW or b) continue playing and figure out how to survive.

I'd personally rather do the latter, I haven't even been playing for 2 full years yet and spent a good chunk of change on the hobby, I'd rather not throw that all away because of one unit.

I don't have 20k points of whatever lying under my bed sorry. I know I can't match these troop. I'm not saying I can't win, but I just can't match their troop. That's an absolute true. So now, what do I have: a 25 page thread of people that like to share their opinion. And my opinion is simple: 40k rock, but GW is not good at rule writing. It piss me off that everytime I put my well though list (I am careful when list building and I submit often here for idea or approval) on the board, I pick it up moments later when someone is telling me: Ok so this unit can move 12inch, shoot 36inch 4 shoot strenght 6 each, and then move back 2D6. Oh and they are my troop choice and have ObSec, enjoy!

**JimOnMars**

Martel732 wrote:
Quitting is a legitimate way to deal with them. At least until the 8th ed codex. There's a thing called a hiatus. I've taken three of them and I didn't throw anything away.

This won't help much, in 8th they'll get buffed again.

No one needs to quit, just quit playing against Eldar (and Necron). There are plenty of other armies to play.

**raiden**

Martel732 wrote:
raiden wrote:
BA list at 1850 I would run vs eldar-

Baal strike force
Option 1- (my preferred)
HQ- 162
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Fast attack-561
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
Elites-330
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Heavy support-390
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130

20pts left over.

List 2-
HQs-
ML2 lib w/ Gallans staff (goes with command squad) on bike-120
ML1 lib-65 (goes with random tac unit)
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130

FA-345
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod

Elites-495
Command squad w/ jump packs-125
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165

Heavy support-315
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105

FIrst off, those aren't TAC lists at all. What if you don't know you are playing against Eldar? I'm not able to list tailor. Ever. Secondly, I don't even think those are very good anti-Eldar lists. I can already envision Eldar intial deployments that would completely neuter your alpha strikes as well. Drop pods are very gimmicky.

They actually are, the only lacking tac from either list is anti-air. All you need is 1 fragnaught to ruin jetbikes day.
Fragnaughts are good vs everyone.

Grav-bikes can ruin eldar day, or WK. They also ruin many other peoples day.

Drop plas has always been a great TAC list,

Devasators are quite devastating if they get 1-2 shots off. Always have been. With missile launchers they are the purest TAC heavy weapon.
Please tell me what part about this list save flyers is tailored? I have horde killing, elite killing, MC killing, tank killing.

If it makes you feel better take melta on the tac squads instead of plasma

There's your counter lists. Waaaahhhh

**Martel732**

I still think those lists would be massacred by current Eldar, much less the new one. MLs got a bit better in 7th, but only because lascannons and melta got worse. Devs are still bad, though. There's just not enough dakka in the BA codex to compete

**liquidjoshi**

raiden wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
raiden wrote:
BA list at 1850 I would run vs eldar-

Baal strike force
Option 1- (my preferred)
HQ- 162
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Fast attack-561
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
Elites-330
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Heavy support-390
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130

20pts left over.

List 2-
HQs-
ML2 lib w/ Gallans staff (goes with command squad) on bike-120
ML1 lib-65 (goes with random tac unit)
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130

FA-345
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod

Elites-495
Command squad w/ jump packs-125
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165

Heavy support-315
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105

FIrst off, those aren't TAC lists at all. What if you don't know you are playing against Eldar? I'm not able to list tailor. Ever. Secondly, I don't even think those are very good anti-Eldar lists. I can already envision Eldar intial deployments that would completely neuter your alpha strikes as well. Drop pods are very gimmicky.

They actually are, the only lacking tac from either list is anti-air. All you need is 1 fragnaught to ruin jetbikes day.
Fragnaughts are good vs everyone.

Grav-bikes can ruin eldar day, or WK. They also ruin many other peoples day.

Drop plas has always been a great TAC list,

Devasators are quite devastating if they get 1-2 shots off. Always have been. With missile launchers they are the purest TAC heavy weapon.
Please tell me what part about this list save flyers is tailored? I have horde killing, elite killing, MC killing, tank killing.

If it makes you feel better take melta on the tac squads instead of plasma

There's your counter lists. Waaaahhhh

I didn't know the true prophet of 40K himself was here. All hail the once and future king.

Or you could look back through the thread as to why those won't work...

**raiden**

liquidjoshi wrote:
raiden wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
raiden wrote:
BA list at 1850 I would run vs eldar-

Baal strike force
Option 1- (my preferred)
HQ- 162
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Fast attack-561
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
Elites-330
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Heavy support-390
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130

20pts left over.

List 2-
HQs-
ML2 lib w/ Gallans staff (goes with command squad) on bike-120
ML1 lib-65 (goes with random tac unit)
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130

FA-345
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod

Elites-495
Command squad w/ jump packs-125
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165

Heavy support-315
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105

FIrst off, those aren't TAC lists at all. What if you don't know you are playing against Eldar? I'm not able to list tailor. Ever. Secondly, I don't even think those are very good anti-Eldar lists. I can already envision Eldar intial deployments that would completely neuter your alpha strikes as well. Drop pods are very gimmicky.

They actually are, the only lacking tac from either list is anti-air. All you need is 1 fragnaught to ruin jetbikes day.
Fragnaughts are good vs everyone.

Grav-bikes can ruin eldar day, or WK. They also ruin many other peoples day.

Drop plas has always been a great TAC list,

Devasators are quite devastating if they get 1-2 shots off. Always have been. With missile launchers they are the purest TAC heavy weapon.
Please tell me what part about this list save flyers is tailored? I have horde killing, elite killing, MC killing, tank killing.

If it makes you feel better take melta on the tac squads instead of plasma

There's your counter lists. Waaaahhhh

I didn't know the true prophet of 40K himself was here. All hail the once and future king.

Or you could look back through the thread as to why those won't work...

Yes. Let's devolve into petty clichéd insults and vague 'refer to' to a thread I've been in since page 2.

A fragnaught alone cab easily kill 4 bikes, any deep striking AT is waiting until T2 to come in. List 2 is indeed a tad more tailored and safer than 1. W.e.

WK will most likely have a 3+ still. 12 str 8 ap3 rockets will hurt if not kill it. GC or not. Grav will hurt if not kill it. It will also force scatterbikes to jink.honestly in list 1 I Am not worried much about the WK save as counter assault unit.

No. Eldar don't always GI first.

**Martel732**

I honestly don't think those lists can win. Especially if the Eldar player sets up in a savvy manner. Your fragnoughts won't be able to hit the bikes.

**liquidjoshi**

raiden wrote:

Yes. Let's devolve into petty clichéd insults and vague 'refer to' to a thread I've been in since page 2.

A fragnaught alone cab easily kill 4 bikes, any deep striking AT is waiting until T2 to come in. List 2 is indeed a tad more tailored and safer than 1. W.e.

WK will most likely have a 3+ still. 12 str 8 ap3 rockets will hurt if not kill it. GC or not. Grav will hurt if not kill it. It will also force scatterbikes to jink.honestly in list 1 I Am not worried much about the WK save as counter assault unit.

No. Eldar don't always GI first.

Your counter argument to Martel consisted of "Nuh uh, these things ruin X's day". He's the BA expert here, not me. If you're not going to give real answers, don't expect real respect for them.

In other words, HAIL THE PROPHET.

*Ahem*

Anyway, your list wouldn't scare my Tau or IG. If you're admitting to straight up tailoring, then I still don't think you'll get far against Eldar. The bikes will have AT support. If you pod, those units will be on the board one, two turns tops.

**raiden**

liquidjoshi wrote:
raiden wrote:

Yes. Let's devolve into petty clichéd insults and vague 'refer to' to a thread I've been in since page 2.

A fragnaught alone cab easily kill 4 bikes, any deep striking AT is waiting until T2 to come in. List 2 is indeed a tad more tailored and safer than 1. W.e.

WK will most likely have a 3+ still. 12 str 8 ap3 rockets will hurt if not kill it. GC or not. Grav will hurt if not kill it. It will also force scatterbikes to jink.honestly in list 1 I Am not worried much about the WK save as counter assault unit.

No. Eldar don't always GI first.

Your counter argument to Martel consisted of "Nuh uh, these things ruin X's day". He's the BA expert here, not me. If you're not going to give real answers, don't expect real respect for them.

In other words, HAIL THE PROPHET.

*Ahem*

Anyway, your list wouldn't scare my Tau or IG. If you're admitting to straight up tailoring, then I still don't think you'll get far against Eldar. The bikes will have AT support. If you pod, those units will be on the board one, two turns tops.

I gave reasoning behind every selection I made. This entire thread us based on the premise X ruins 'zyv's day nerf please. Yeah they have AT for my two dreads who have already done most of their damage.

The devastators will drop 1-2 scatterbikes a turn IF they jink or get a cover save.

List 2 would be even more devastating. With psychic shrieking libs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I honestly don't think those lists can win. Especially if the Eldar player sets up in a savvy manner. Your fragnoughts won't be able to hit the bikes.

I play Raven wing. Jet bikes take more space than marine bikes. Where exactly are you hiding 30 bikes?

**PandaHero**

He doenst need to hide the bike, He just have to deploy in order to block your from deppstrike shenanigans, hence making your alpha strike less effective, therefore not countering the list. 30 Bike has a massive footprint, so deepstiking against them will probably put you in the middle of the board anyway