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Hollismason wrote:
We don't even know yet if that Windriders can all have heavy weapons is true at all.

We do. There is a video of the new white dwarf, and it is clear as day.

Oh that's good to know.

Hollismason wrote:
Oh that's good to know.

It is if you're an eldar player and a jetbike fan. It isn't if you're anybody else....

Did they finally change the save to 4+?

No, the save is still 3+. They also now have the option to take a warlock in the squad. But that's just th same points as it used to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing I have noticed, the warlocks entry States that they are allowed to generate powers from their own discipline, or from sanctic. I shall add this in to the original post, but I would assume that would mean they can no longer summon daemons. (I used to hate that anyway) but I wonder if they still perils on any double with sanctic?

I'll wait till the book hits the shelves to come to an actual conclusion, but thus far I'm not optimistic.

Eldar with their currect dex might as well be called Codex: Farseers, bikes, waveserpents and WK.

The fact that they seem to have buffed the bikes and WK in the new dex, and produced a new farseer model on a bike, means that unless there are even more powerful things added the only change in the meta will be more bikes instead of serpents - bikes who will do exactly the same job as the waveserpents did before and spam bucket loads of str 6 shots.

And here I was hoping for more diversity....

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I'll wait till the book hits the shelves to come to an actual conclusion, but thus far I'm not optimistic.

Eldar with their currect dex might as well be called Codex: Farseers, bikes, waveserpents and WK.

The fact that they seem to have buffed the bikes and WK in the new dex, and produced a new farseer model on a bike, means that unless there are even more powerful things added the only change in the meta will be more bikes instead of serpents - bikes who will do exactly the same job as the waveserpents did before and spam bucket loads of str 6 shots.

And here I was hoping for more diversity....

I am still hopeful. The way the new detachments are working I really like. You are rewarded for taking formations. They gain you bonuses. They are encouraging people to take units that aren't seen all that often. Take the core selections for this eldar book for example. As I have seen, every core has a requirement for Vyper Jetbikes.

Of course, if we're talking tournament, you'll be looking at CADS and spam. But that's pretty much true of any army.

Has anyone seen the entry for Scatter Lasers? Has it been confirmed that it is still S6 ?

Seconding the call for any information about the weapon profiles -- if the Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon have been nerfed, then maybe these bikes will stay on the outer edge of reasonable.

However, since SCannons are in Harlequins as well, and they're the same, it just has to be the Scatter Laser.

Maybe they're S5 AP6 4 shots, with no special rules? That would at least restrict Jetbikes to mostly anti-infantry duty. Since SCannons are only 24" and only 3 shots, Jetbikes with SCannons are still on the very edge of not entirely absolutely broken. Unfortunately, possible SL nerfs can't get worse than that, otherwise it'd be strictly worse than the SC, and they cost exactly the same points.

The only other thing that could potentially help keep Jetbikes from being absolutely broken would be if the Warhost detachment had restrictions on the number of special weapons jet bikes in that detachment could have. That wouldn't restrict a CAD at all, but who knows. We can also hope against hope that this is a typo in the WD.

Scatter Lasers are visually confirmed to be S6 AP 6 Heavy 4 weapons with 36" range. No Laser Lock anymore.

There are a lot of eldar players trying to defend these changes. There is nothing to defend. There is no reasonable changes in the white dwarf. Don't get mad at the world because they don't agree with your assessment of the situation. And if you choose to spam these broken units don't pull a tailor swift and blame all the refused games on the other party.

 SarisKhan wrote:
Scatter Lasers are visually confirmed to be S6 AP 6 Heavy 4 weapons with 36" range. No Laser Lock anymore.

No laser Lock?

That makes the 160 shots totally fair.

 Frozocrone wrote:
The worst thing I can think of is that Eldar are supposed to be mobile and counter the enemy with manoeuvrability and yet they can totally do gunline well, yet still be good in Maelstrom.

Way to go GW.

You used to pay linearly for durability, firepower, and speed, with cumulative multipliers for rare units maximizing combinations of those.

Somewhere along the line, Eldar became the most durable army, with the best firepower, and the best speed, and they don't pay the points premiums that other armies do.

Was there any confirmation on WK point costs?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Was there any confirmation on WK point costs?

Not as of yet. But I can only assume with the status change to gargantuan monstrous creature, which grants FnP and makes them more durable to poison and such, along with the addition of a D strength melee weapon that the points must surely be going up.

Alrighty then, yep, Windrider Jetbikes seem beyond the pale.

I can easily see Tournaments releasing immediate FAQs taking it back to 1 Heavy Weapon per 3, as in previous codex iirc. This is an easy change that would make Jetbikes basically what they are now -- still very good, but not totally broken. the LVO/BAO already did the Invis nerf and the 2+ re-roll nerf, a change in this kind would keep the tournament scene working. If enough TOs make this change, and if the social contract can still keep casual games reasonable, then maybe the community can keep the bad effects to a minimum.


People have also been talking about the Wraithguard weapons being Destroyer of some kind. This is kind of speculation, but if it's something like "gains Destroyer rule on to-hit rolls of 6" then it's still reasonable. Distortion weapons already do nasty damage, but are limited by the expense, slowness, and short-range of the platform. Making them a bit more killy to me doesn't break Wraithguard yet, because the limitations are still in place, and getting around those forces your army to do certain things (forces allying with DE for example). It's definitely a buff to them, but I'm not sure as to whether it's at the point where it needs to be comped yet.

Oh look ranged d is already banned by ITC and every local club that follows those rules. Guess those elder players can place those wraith knoghts and wraith guard on the same shelf that holds thier revenent Titans collecting dust.

Now about those jetbikes!

 Orock wrote:
There are a lot of eldar players trying to defend these changes.

actually I haven't seen much defending since the WD leaks.

Also I hope the hard counter to the new Eldar is dark angels that'd be p funny. Land Raiders full of Ruststalkers protected by 4++ PFG and Black Knights?

What's another hard counter against those bikes and D shooting? Green Tide or IG blob?

Tournament nerfs really amuse me. And have stopped me from attending tournaments sometimes.

The 'I don't like that rule, so you can't have it' attitude is really disappointing. We all have the same choices in this game. To nerf specific rules is a bit of a joke. GW wrote the rules that way for a reason. I'm not saying that they make perfect game systems, or that they don't make sometimes painful mistakes. But the rules are the rules.

We will see what the tournament scene does. But most people bring enough tools to deal with MEQ. And that's all a jetbike is.

So far, the nerfs that have happened in the American tournament scene since 6th dropped have all been very mild -- America hasn't really gone in for large-scale Comp since before 5th Edition, I think.

The pre-emptive nerf (1 heavy per 3) I have suggested does not prevent Jetbikes from being taken at all, just restricting them to a point where their firepower doesn't render all other options obsolete.

The difference between a MEQ and a new jet bike is that most MEQs don't get Scatter Lasers and 12" movement + 2d6" assault move after firing. The weak point of Tactical Marines is that they generally do nothing offensively. Most competitive armies using Tactical Marines were exploiting Combat-Squadding mass ObSec Tacticals out of ObSec Drop pods -- in other words, the same use that Jetbikes were used for up until this point.

The big difference is now these MEQ can all have equivalent firepower per point as heavy support choices. They completely obviate Double SL War Walkers, which were previously considered one of the pinnacles of fragile firepower.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Tournament nerfs really amuse me. And have stopped me from attending tournaments sometimes.

The 'I don't like that rule, so you can't have it' attitude is really disappointing. We all have the same choices in this game. To nerf specific rules is a bit of a joke. GW wrote the rules that way for a reason. I'm not saying that they make perfect game systems, or that they don't make sometimes painful mistakes. But the rules are the rules.

We will see what the tournament scene does. But most people bring enough tools to deal with MEQ. And that's all a jetbike is.

Gw also wrote the rules for unbound and yet everyobe uses detschments and formstions.
The tournament scene doesn't need to do anything. Ranged d is already banned in all ITC.
Super heavy low and gargantuan low are already considered rude to bring unannounced or outright banned in most friendly clubs. Ranged d versions are banned in Tournaments. The new wraithknight if true would be no different then the pariah that the elder revenent Titan is now.
Elder jetbikes will be an issue but even with nerfed scatter lasers it's going to be a powerful but hard to beat list.

It is more than just the Wraithknight. ITC will effectively ban Wraithguard and D Cannon batteries. I will be interested to see if they readdress this.

Jetbike spam hard counter is Living Metal. Everyone not in an AV13 front/side armor is screwed.

The only way I'd see the jetbike being balanced at 27 points is if eldar jet bikes didn't have relentless.

Point for point, does anything in the game land 8 S6 hits for 81 points? I cannot find anything near that firepower, let alone range and mobility.

Can you imagine running them with shadow seers as a gun line? 36" wall of death, and you've got to be within 2d6x2" to fire back at all.

I've already got a dark eldar/harliquin army in the works, and wanted to add some new eldar to it as well; but this unit is so terribly mis-costed.

Why should the wraithknight, a model that people have spent a lot of money on and put a lot of effort in to until now, suddenly require being shelved because people don't like ranged D? In this country they're £70 each. I don't know what that equates to in dollars. I have 2. Why should I not be able to field £140 of models because GW have changed their weapon profile? To fit THEIR game. It's poor form really.

People need to get used to the fact that super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures are here to stay. This fear of what has arisen in 7th is getting boring. Some ate far too stuck in their ways.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Jetbike spam hard counter is Living Metal. Everyone not in an AV13 front/side armor is screwed.

The only way I'd see the jetbike being balanced at 27 points is if eldar jet bikes didn't have relentless.

Point for point, does anything in the game land 8 S6 hits for 81 points? I cannot find anything near that firepower, let alone range and mobility.

Can you imagine running them with shadow seers as a gun line? 36" wall of death, and you've got to be within 2d6x2" to fire back at all.

I've already got a dark eldar/harliquin army in the works, and wanted to add some new eldar to it as well; but this unit is so terribly mis-costed.

Yeah but as someone pointed out to me, they can take the Assault Shuriken Cannon instead of Scatter Laser.
I'l stick to playing DE. At least their bikes are fair.


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 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why should the wraithknight, a model that people have spent a lot of money on and put a lot of effort in to until now, suddenly require being shelved because people don't like ranged D? In this country they're £70 each. I don't know what that equates to in dollars. I have 2. Why should I not be able to field £140 of models because GW have changed their weapon profile? To fit THEIR game. It's poor form really.

People need to get used to the fact that super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures are here to stay. This fear of what has arisen in 7th is getting boring. Some ate far too stuck in their ways.

Then take the CC version. If you want to play with the Ranged D weapon, by all means clear it with your opponent since this is a two player game.

Not everyone wants to face Invisibility, re-rollable 2++ or D weapons, or GC/SHV. I personally feel GC and SHV belong in Escalation and Apoc only.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why should the wraithknight, a model that people have spent a lot of money on and put a lot of effort in to until now, suddenly require being shelved because people don't like ranged D? In this country they're £70 each. I don't know what that equates to in dollars. I have 2. Why should I not be able to field £140 of models because GW have changed their weapon profile? To fit THEIR game. It's poor form really.

People need to get used to the fact that super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures are here to stay. This fear of what has arisen in 7th is getting boring. Some ate far too stuck in their ways.

Then take the CC version. If you want to play with the Ranged D weapon, by all means clear it with your opponent since this is a two player game.

Not everyone wants to face Invisibility, re-rollable 2++ or D weapons, or GC/SHV. I personally feel GC and SHV belong in Escalation and Apoc only.

Then those people should maybe go and find another game to play.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why should the wraithknight, a model that people have spent a lot of money on and put a lot of effort in to until now, suddenly require being shelved because people don't like ranged D? In this country they're £70 each. I don't know what that equates to in dollars. I have 2. Why should I not be able to field £140 of models because GW have changed their weapon profile? To fit THEIR game. It's poor form really.

People need to get used to the fact that super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures are here to stay. This fear of what has arisen in 7th is getting boring. Some ate far too stuck in their ways.

Then take the CC version. If you want to play with the Ranged D weapon, by all means clear it with your opponent since this is a two player game.

Not everyone wants to face Invisibility, re-rollable 2++ or D weapons, or GC/SHV. I personally feel GC and SHV belong in Escalation and Apoc only.

Then those people should maybe go and find another game to play.

Lol you want people to play your 40k not the 40k that has been played the last 2 years.
The only difference with the new reported wraithknight and the old elder low revenent Titan is the knight is substantially cheaper and only fired two ranged d weapons instead of 4. The reverent Titan has largely been banned this entire time. Sorry to burst your bubble but most people have no intention of playing superheavy low or gargantuan creatures with ranged d. Just like you likely don't play people bringing unbound.

I do play people who play unbound. I play people that bring anything that is legally allowed in the 7th edition rulebook and in any corresponding codex. I have absolutely no problem with facing unbound, GMC, or SH. I have access to the same optioned they do.

FYI, this doesn't make it my version of 40K. It makes it THE version of 40K. You know, the one in the official games workshop 7th edition rulebook..... So which one of us is the one wanting to play their own version?

Anyways, this argument is detracting from the point of this thread. I won't argue with people about how broken or not these changes are. These are probably the same players who spam riptides or the new necron 'I just won't ever die' detachment and think that they're all perfectly acceptable.

The point of this thread is to discuss the new eldar book, the rumours and the tactical implications. If people decided to be 'that guy' and spam bikes, or opponents decide to cry when a wraithknight is brought... When they had no problem with them before, then that's up to them. Feel free to start a new thread called 'I'd like to whinge about eldar as they're probably now the top of the top tier'.

It's 2 shots, vs 4 large blasts.
It's 36" instead of 60".

D templates are rough as they can scatter into additional targets, spreading the love.

I'm totally cool with ranged D (no blast), as long as the cost goes up a bit.
You want to know why? Because 1/3rd of those 2 shots miss. The wraith knight is still going to be killing it's target in 1 or 2 turns of shooting (same as before).

As long as cost goes up a bit, I think you'll see an effective drop if fire-effect (you're paying more for killing at the same rate, which means less other stuff on the table).

Can anyone explain the hint of S: D weapons for Eldar? I saw a snapshot that mentioned them getting a lot of S: D and that worries me.