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Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




USA

So far from what I've been reading a lot of people are worried the crap out of themselves against facing a new WK and jet bike spam Eldar army. I think overall daemons can still put up a good fight and win, depending who goes first since daemons really need the buffs(grim, cursed earth, invisibility) first to stay alive.

1. Belakor can still own the upgraded WK, might take 2 combat turns tho.

2. Jet bike troops are only LD8, terrify + psychic shriek can possibly wreck a whole big unit in one psychic phase.

3. Might have to bring bigger squads of screamers and/or flesh hounds, since they are probably the only ones that can catch the bikes. 2++ reroll screamers can weather a lot of fire powers and so can a big ball of invisible hounds. Just gotta survive one round of elder shooting and get into assault on turn 2 is key. Plague drones might work too but the HoN is on foot may hinder movement.

4. Gotta keep summoning more troops(plague bearers, screamers, hounds) to create target saturation for the jet bikes. Regardless how big a jet bike unit is it can only shoot at one target a turn.

5. Fateweaver hopefully he can roll on some good shooting powers that can kill enough bikes to force a LD test, at LD8 they can easily fail a test and run off the board(3d6 fall back). if they are close to the board edge. Forcing them to jink would be good too.

6. DP of nurgle can fly around and drop stream of corruption (AP3 template) or plague wind, again hoping to kill enough to force LD tests.

7. Daemons all have fear. And if Belakor is warlord, thats -1 LD penalty to fear tests.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 16:16:29


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm not sure about belakor owning them any more... Stronger CC and then stomps. Can't even use invisibility against stomps..

DFTT 
   
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San Jose, CA

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

7. Daemons all have fear. And if Belakor is LoW, thats -1 LD penalty to fear tests.

What do you mean by if Belakor is LoW? He's not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 06:31:45



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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




clearly meant warlord.

Fear still irrelevant tho, as if you connect you'll win, its connecting thats impossible.

and the WK can now curbstomp even our strongest units.
(and is I assume fearless?)

DFTT 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 jy2 wrote:
 SonsofVulkan wrote:

7. Daemons all have fear. And if Belakor is LoW, thats -1 LD penalty to fear tests.

What do you mean by if Belakor is LoW? He's not.



To which it doesn't really matter unless they remove fearless from the wraithknight, and I don't see that happening.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well my idea was to spam fearless fleshhounds with the gorepack.

Fast and scout means T 2 assault pretty much guaranteed, even against jetbikes.

They can't hurt Knights, but maybe can hold them in place for a turn.

belakor and invisible fury thirster for the heavy killing.


unfortunately massed firepower will probably still kill all the hounds before they connect.

DFTT 
   
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!!Goffik Rocker!!






Does fleshbane work against GC?

It takes ~ 27 not TL scatterlaser shots to inflict a wound on a t5 3+ save flying MC. So, get rady to loose a FMC every turn to weight of fire untill you can mitigate the scatterlaser spam problem. And don't forget farseer buffs/debuffs.

Bikes are not affected by pinning.

I think that if nothing changes for eldar, the only more or less reliable way to fight them is a shooty alpha-strike. LD8 is good but if you force 3-4 units to pass it, at least one will likely fail it and run away. So, terrify is your friend. WK are not likely to get killed but they're probably gona be quite expensive, so your best bet is to ignore it and block the path with throw-away units which can also be done. Summoned daemonettes are really good at it due to long run moves.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 06:45:40


 
   
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Hamburg

Don't worry too much about a codex to be released.
We might see some other options that make Eldar even more viable.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Fleshbane works. sniper and poisoned don't. ID only does d3

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Oceanside, CA

I don't see much reason to run large units of bikes, as they are core.
Why take 2 units of 10 when you could run a ton of small units?
Think of double CAD. 2 farseers on bikes and 12 units of bikes, + 2 wraith knights.

It's 144 S6 shots, split between 12 objective secure units.
It's a hell of a lot harder to deal with.
Anything you shoot at on turn 1 is going to jink, then just take their snap shots on your FMC.



 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The problem is pretty extreme.

Screamerstar + helldrakes + rage thirsters?

I think a nurgle Prince with a balesword can still do a number on a wraithknight

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Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




USA

Yeah oops I meant warlord.

WK is WS4 hits on 5s. Belakor goes first, hits on 3s and wounds on 2s, master crafted, 6 attacks on the charge. Any smart player would def buff up Belakor with some invis, prescience, grim or whatever before throwing him in. Like I said Belakor should kill a WK in 2 rounds. If a daemon player don't use Belakor, then yes summon a unit of daemons and just use it to movement block the WK like they would a IK. A lot of tourneys don't allow range D so....

Hopefully the new WK will cost more. The more WK they bring the less jet bikes and vice versa.
   
Made in us
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USA

Haha WK is gonna end up being disallowed in many major tournament such as Nova and I expect many others to follow. And that also include the D-platform and that D psychic flyer. Yes they still have the WG with the -1D template but it's actually not that bad, it still can't do much to khorne hounds or 2++ screamers. However it will put the hurt on plague star so top daemon players might have to revert back to utilizing more hounds or something else.

Honestly I think the new eldars isn't that bad to deal with in the tournament scene. Daemons really just have to deal with jet bike spam like everyone else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/21 12:38:40


 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






Be'lakor can still take a WK, but it is more risky.
Invisibility will be much more required, as will a grimoire to protect against those stomps.
One roll of a 6 though and it is all over though.

Nurgle DP is no longer a viable counter. Daemonettes become one of the only answers to WKs. Even then, stomps mean that you will have to apply the damage quickly.

Bikes are going to be much more a problem for daemons than the old serpent spam. They have a greater damage output and daemons struggle to apply pressure at range. Also they can remain out of charge range more easily.

The only viable assault unit in my eyes is hounds. Everything else must have a grimoire and invis if they want to survive the scatter lasers.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Yeh the new jetbikes are gonna be a pain for sure. To the point where I'm actually considering allying a heldrake once again, like the olden days.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




In the plus side , bikes Don't ignore cover. So an airborne belakor throwing out shrouding for jinking screamers/tzeentch fmcs will still do the job. As will drones with some cover.

DFTT 
   
Made in us
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I believe a bog standard balesword nurgle prince will still take on a WK if they havent gained wounds. Yes it wount be a one touch kill, but its still D3 wounds for every instant death wound a GC takes, and it wont get FnP against the balesword either.

No wait... I am special in the head. DP is S6, WK is T7 or T8 right? So have fun getting those wounds on.... crap. Best bet is to hope for fleshbane.

I am really happy that eldar have less ignore cover, as I greatly enjoy using plague drones.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/21 13:40:17


   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




USA

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Be'lakor can still take a WK, but it is more risky.
Invisibility will be much more required, as will a grimoire to protect against those stomps.
One roll of a 6 though and it is all over though.

Nurgle DP is no longer a viable counter. Daemonettes become one of the only answers to WKs. Even then, stomps mean that you will have to apply the damage quickly.

Bikes are going to be much more a problem for daemons than the old serpent spam. They have a greater damage output and daemons struggle to apply pressure at range. Also they can remain out of charge range more easily.

The only viable assault unit in my eyes is hounds. Everything else must have a grimoire and invis if they want to survive the scatter lasers.


Kind of not going to worry about WK as long as S-D or Non-character LoW is banned at a tourney.

In terms scatbikes spam, most TAC lists will probably field 5-6 units of 3-5 bikes so one big factor is not getting alpha striked, if Eldar goes first, might have to reserve everything except a few units that can keep out of LOS.

Make Belakor war lord. Hopefully Daemon goes first, they can buff up the hounds, screamer star with spells and grimoire. Hounds scout move up to the middle left and the screamer star move up middle right, thus will limit the scatbikes movement options to stay out of range. If scatbikes wants to hug the board edges the whole game to prevent getting charged then they risked running off the board(3D6) if they fail their LD7 moral test. Belakor and Fateweaver swoops in 24" both psychic shriek 2 units of bikes. Belakor then terrify one unit and dominate another. Fateweaver use his other 2 or 3 spells to blast away at whatever bikes in range with flicker fire, BoT or whatever other spells he roll. Unit of 5 bikes will only have to lose 2 bikes to force a moral test, so cross your fingers and hope they fail their tests, unit that got terrify roll at LD6. Goal is to turn 100-120 S6 rounds into 50-60 or less turn 1.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/21 16:57:01


 
   
Made in ca
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Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

With my Tzeentch forces, I figure that Screamers & the Burning Chariot will be my main counters vs. Jetbikes, along with likely bringing the winged Prince w/Psy Shriek back out of semi-retirement.

I also still run Flamers, though I might try out breaking my current max sized unit back down into 3 strong suicide units for template bombing Jetbikers... 3 templates should generate enough hits to drop at least 2-3 bikers and thus force a Ld check on most units we're likely to see, with a 33% shot at perhaps finishing off half or even all that's left due to Warpflame.
Likewise, if you run a Disc Tzherald in a unit of Screamers, against 3-6 strong biker squads, the 3D6 version of Flickering Fire with his better BS should help force panic checks.

I'm wondering if the standard LoC w/Lv3 Divination would still be able to kick Wraithknights senseless? S8/ap attacks, plus a 61% shot at Precog for re-rolling everything, on top of whatever your pair of Greater Gifts give you... He's pretty much been my old reliable against everything short of Imperial Knights.

I've also as of late been running allied CSM's with a Lv3 Sorc running Santic in a Rhino squad... Cleansing Flame is pure win!
Could instead upgrade him to Termie armour and drop him in with some Termiecides?

 
   
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USA

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I believe a bog standard balesword nurgle prince will still take on a WK if they havent gained wounds. Yes it wount be a one touch kill, but its still D3 wounds for every instant death wound a GC takes, and it wont get FnP against the balesword either.

No wait... I am special in the head. DP is S6, WK is T7 or T8 right? So have fun getting those wounds on.... crap. Best bet is to hope for fleshbane.

I am really happy that eldar have less ignore cover, as I greatly enjoy using plague drones.


Yeah poison don't work on them any more, your best bet is going to be Belakor but just hope he doesn't stomp him out with a 6 so might be a good idea to soften the WK with some shooting attacks, psychic shriek or throw another unit at it(daemonettes).

Plague drone is still good but if Eldars run a squad of D-scythe WG with a WWP Archon...its going to hurt a lot, D3 wounds on 3+ templates ughhh.
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant





Canada

Just Ally CSM and Take a Typhon Heavy Siege Tank. Str 10 AP1 Massive Blast Ignores Cover. You win. Bye Bye Jetbikes and its only 350 Points. 24/48" Range, the latter being if you dont move in that movement phase. Just park it mid Field and blast the crap out of anything.

Take a Claughtercult, Ally in some CSM Take a Typhon. Win win. Durability AND massive damage. Or if you wanna have some fun, Take your Slaughtercult, Ally CSM and take a squad of Chaos Rapiers with Cyclotrath Conversion Beamers. Take a Sorcerer with them and try to get Perfect Timing for Ignores Cover. You not have 3 Artillery Platforms that have str 10 AP 1 and ignores cover due to the sorcerer. And it only runs you about 375 points, if you decide to deck the Sorcerer out.

Honestly, I hate my Eldar codex as it is, even if these changed go through, Im just going to bash the crap out of them with cheesy evil nonsense until the rest of my Eldar playing friends get the hint. But it's still manageable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gwarsh41 wrote:
I believe a bog standard balesword nurgle prince will still take on a WK if they havent gained wounds. Yes it wount be a one touch kill, but its still D3 wounds for every instant death wound a GC takes, and it wont get FnP against the balesword either.

No wait... I am special in the head. DP is S6, WK is T7 or T8 right? So have fun getting those wounds on.... crap. Best bet is to hope for fleshbane.

I am really happy that eldar have less ignore cover, as I greatly enjoy using plague drones.


It really depends on how you wanna run your DPs of Nurgle. Most tend to go for Biomancy, so most of the time you're str 9 anyways. On the offshoot you decide to go into some other tree (For whatever reasons) You can always try for things like Psychic Shriek, Invisibility, and just bog them down indefinitely. But the Balesword is still a great weapon against them. Just make sure you arent charging into Terrain

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/21 18:14:58


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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




..then the D weapons pop the typhon turn 1..

DFTT 
   
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Loyal Necron Lychguard




Posting my thoughts on fighting the Wraithknight from the Rumors thread (slightly edited):

Nurgle Princes are probably the best "true counter" in the Daemon book that I can think of. A NDP just needs one of: Iron Arm, Warp Speed, or Fleshbane Reward - and getting any two of them will basically guarantee a dead WK once he reaches it. There's of course the possibility of not getting any of them, but if you bring 2-3 Princes, that's not a big concern. Even if you have 2 without any of those rewards, getting both into Assault with the WK will probably kill it thanks to Baleswords.

Be'lakor is still pretty good. Gauranteed Invisibility and a 2+ Jink means he'll more than likely make it there, and if he doesn't Jink he's got a nice Psychic Shriek to hopefully burn off a wound or two. Invisibility and Eternal Warrior will hopefully keep him pretty safe in Assault, though it doesn't do anything to mitigate DSword or Stomp rolls of 6. With Fleshbane and Master Crafted, he should be doing pretty well.

You could also try to drown the thing in Slaanesh. Seekers and Daemonettes strike at the same time as the WK with a high number of attacks, hitting on 3s, Rending. Enough attacks should hopefully generate a good amount of 6s, and for a much cheaper price point than the WK. Then he's relying on just his FNP to keep him alive. Statistically needs 81 attacks, which is 41 Daemonettes or 27 Seekers before taking into account things like Alluresses, Heartseekers, or Heralds. If the Heralds have Psychic Shriek before the fight or the Locus of Beguilement for rerolls, then that number drastically reduces.


Personally, I have 2 Daemon Princes that I usually run as Nurgle, and I'm going to work on my Seekerstar (10-20 Seekers with Heartseeker, 1-3 Heralds, Grim + Invis). I don't forsee myself having an issue with Wraithknights at this point in time, though that could change in the future.

Heck, even shooty FMC spam could work. Fateweaver + Be'lakor + 3 Princes = lots of Shriek, lots of Flickering Fire, at least one Bolt of Tzeentch, and a moderate to high amount of Assault viability.
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant





Canada

Captyn_Bob wrote:
..then the D weapons pop the typhon turn 1..


A) Not sure what weapons you're really talking about, becaue so far no one truly knows what the WraithKnights are coming with nor their weapons, weapon profiles, so bear with it for a bit.
B) Typhon counters Jetbikes. End of Story. No matter how many garbage str 6 SL shots you have, you're still going to get erased in droves to the Typhon.
C) Terrain exists. Use it. Eldar have a large lack of Ignores Cover weapons. So be sure to use Cover to your advantage. Even hiding in a Ruin Midfield boosts your Typhon's survivability by 50%.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm not trying to be negative, but the sheer volume of D weaponry available to eldar players, mean that expensive tanks are no longer a worthwhile investment.

I do think princes are a decent counter to WK, hoping for iron arm of fleshbane... the odds aren't too bad.

Could an Axe of Blind Fury prince do enough damage perhaps?

DFTT 
   
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The problem is that princes die to D weapons just as fast as vehicles do because they are T5 so get instant deathed. Even if you get iron arm or endurance off they still only have 4 wounds.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, you are relying on that 2+ jink save, and the eldar shooter not rolling a 6.

D-scythe wraith will be a big problem. Can'#t even assault them as the overwatch is fatal.

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 GoliothOnline wrote:
Just Ally CSM and Take a Typhon Heavy Siege Tank. Str 10 AP1 Massive Blast Ignores Cover. You win. Bye Bye Jetbikes and its only 350 Points. 24/48" Range, the latter being if you dont move in that movement phase. Just park it mid Field and blast the crap out of anything.



The thing is a super heavy LoW, a lot of tourneys banned that(thus including the WK). Even so remember, we still have to deal with other top tourney lists, drop pod marines with some meltas, gating grav cents and etc can wreck it hard. If WK is restricted, Eldar players will most likely bring WG with D-Scyth or even a couple of Firedragon squads in non-scatter DS Falcons will wreck it in a turn probably. Its a 350 pt sink most likely, better to bring to 2 Heldrakes with bale flamers for 340, they are more survivable and can get 4++ if near a cursed earth herald, and they own pretty much all MEQ units .
   
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I love how every positive outlook in this thread is "as long as we get first turn every time, have twenty psychic dice, every power succeeds with the minimum dice to cast with no deny, and they fail every leadership test they have to take, we will be a.o.k."

That's some positive thinking right there.

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USA

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Yeah, you are relying on that 2+ jink save, and the eldar shooter not rolling a 6.

D-scythe wraith will be a big problem. Can'#t even assault them as the overwatch is fatal.


You throw a 2++ screamer star at it, D-scythes are -1D.
   
 
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