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No Quarter magazine always has articles on modeling, minis and scenery.
Here's a great WMH table.



And I do a lot of conversions for WMH. Here's my favorite one.


But to be fair, I think Infinity has the best scenery. (the 40k scenery was thrown in because that's all the organizers had on hand.
Here's me and Larry Correia playing at a convention. Small game, but a great looking one.


I'm not saying you should like one more than the other, I'm just saying that sweeping generalizations don't really help the conversation.

I have a box o' Eldar gathering dust in my garage. This thread TOTALLY made me want to bust it out, learn it, and come find you to play....

I believe anyone who supports this ban should be banned when any codex you play gets release again....

IMO, especially with the current Codex creep (or in this case, a gigantic leap in power), is all the more evidence that somebody needs to come along and just tear down the TT. It's morphing into some horrible, stupid monster of a game that requires a ridiculous amount of exceptions and agreements to be truly enjoyable.

It'll never happen, but I'd love if for the 8th Edition GW tears everything down and hits a massive restart button.

 Wyzilla wrote:
It'll never happen, but I'd love if for the 8th Edition GW tears everything down and hits a massive restart button.

What? Like WFB 9E? Nah.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
It'll never happen, but I'd love if for the 8th Edition GW tears everything down and hits a massive restart button.

What? Like WFB 9E? Nah.

Well, balance it out so it's like WFB 8e, which to my understanding was more or less perfect.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
It'll never happen, but I'd love if for the 8th Edition GW tears everything down and hits a massive restart button.

What? Like WFB 9E? Nah.

Well, balance it out so it's like WFB 8e, which to my understanding was more or less perfect.

It wasn't.
Look up Purple Sun, IF, and what it does to certain armies. Slow armies are not allowed to play in 8th edition.

@MWHistorian - Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it's impossible to have nice WMH sets. I'm saying that it's hard to find groups into this sort of thing, as the vast majority seem to just want to get to the gaming part.

Also, that the average 40k table looks pretty impressive, even with average paint job and just common terrain. Because there are fewer models, much fewer large models, and lower model density, to achieve a table that doesn't look bare, you need to work a lot harder.

No disrespect to the PP studio, and as I said, there are extraordinary situations (like what you see in No Quarter) which buck this.

One thing you learn very quickly in 40k armies is that volume matters: Even a sub par modeling job looks impressive when your Imperial Gaurd has rows and rows of grunts. In the same way, historical look awesome because there are lines and lines of soldiers standing shoulder to shoulder, and terrain or ground cover on every available square inch.

Akiasura wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
It'll never happen, but I'd love if for the 8th Edition GW tears everything down and hits a massive restart button.

What? Like WFB 9E? Nah.

Well, balance it out so it's like WFB 8e, which to my understanding was more or less perfect.

It wasn't.
Look up Purple Sun, IF, and what it does to certain armies. Slow armies are not allowed to play in 8th edition.

Meh, still not as bad as what the 'I-Win' banner + Alariel does to DoC...

40k is not a particularly tactical game, but the remaining criticisms are valid. "Your local meta is bad"/" players are crap" suggests you're dealing with munchkins and otherwise unpleasant people; if you're dealing with people who play tournament lists in pickup games you do, in fact, have a very unfriendly playgroup and you should find a better one or find something better to do with your time. If you're playing with a more friendly/laid-back group you have the capacity to ask "could you run a softer list?" and get results other than ridicule.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
40k is not a particularly tactical game, but the remaining criticisms are valid. "Your local meta is bad"/" players are crap" suggests you're dealing with munchkins and otherwise unpleasant people; if you're dealing with people who play tournament lists in pickup games you do, in fact, have a very unfriendly playgroup and you should find a better one or find something better to do with your time. If you're playing with a more friendly/laid-back group you have the capacity to ask "could you run a softer list?" and get results other than ridicule.

I take issue with that asserion. If 40k is not that tactical a game, why do great players consistently perform well in tournaments? Are they just exceptionally lucky?

The thing with playing with jerks is that it really doesn't matter what game you're playing. You might have a little better chance of winning and there might be less cheese, but it's still a lot less fun than playing with normal folk who are considerate of their opponents (which I would actually describe as most 40k players I meet).

 Talys wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
40k is not a particularly tactical game, but the remaining criticisms are valid. "Your local meta is bad"/" players are crap" suggests you're dealing with munchkins and otherwise unpleasant people; if you're dealing with people who play tournament lists in pickup games you do, in fact, have a very unfriendly playgroup and you should find a better one or find something better to do with your time. If you're playing with a more friendly/laid-back group you have the capacity to ask "could you run a softer list?" and get results other than ridicule.

I take issue with that asserion. If 40k is not that tactical a game, why do great players consistently perform well in tournaments? Are they just exceptionally lucky?

They hop to one of the better codexes in each edition. Recently TOs changing the game has helped, but that's been the trend since 3rd edition.

I can't name many great players in 40k, not ones that consistently win major tournaments.
Competitive games usually have these great players that you can name, and that most of the veterans know.



Jerks have nothing to do with it. I play all my table top games with the same group, including role playing games, and rarely, outside of one player, have issues. 40k just requires a certain level of handicapping depending on the power level of certain dexes/formations/allied combinations that leaves something to be desired in our group.

 Toofast wrote:
That's because you're printing ONE. When you have a printer run off 20,000 of them, it doesn't cost much. From GW employees and people who have worked in the printing industry, a codex costs $3-5 to print per copy. Then they're sold for $33-50. How is it that other, smaller companies can make hardcover books of the same quality with more pages for $20-30 if they cost so much to produce? Model kits cost about 25% of their total price to produce. I know this because every year at the training in Memphis, someone asks how GW can give 50% off to employees without losing money. The answer is that even at 50% off, GW is still doubling their money on the cost of a kit. This is why the fact that they don't have sales is mind boggling. If you're a grocery store with a 3% margin, you can't afford to have sales. If your production cost on a kit is $25 and MSRP is $100, you can most definitely afford to have sales once in awhile.

I work in the printing industry here in Australia and I manage 10 stores so I can talk on this specifically in regards to production and management. I am not the oracle by any means but I think based on the assumptions I have made along with the accurate info I have I thinks this is a fair estimate...

Yes, the traditional size codex (like the necrons) would cost on average $5-$10 AUS to produce, trim, bind and then additional to ship. Printing is cheaper the more you do but the finishing (the hard back binding and the spot UV - or the selected high gloss sections on the cover - are labour intensive and difficult to get right) and thus can be a cost that is consistent regardless of 1 copy or 1000. Spot UV can easily DOUBLE the cost of a product.

The main issue with what you presented is that unlike EVERY OTHER model company (PP, Wyrd etc), GW has bricks and mortar stores. This is a massive cost to them and they have to recover it somehow.

Using AUS as the example...

GW sell a box set in store for $100 AUS.
The store will buy it in for (my best guess having seen the stockist price list) about $40.

WOW! $60 profit right? Nope... its $60 gross profit or GP.

You then have to take out your operating expenses (like staff, rent and so on) which will typically be (in this example) $35 or so. Based on the estimates I have I would expect a NET profit in store after all costs of around 25%... pending actual operating costs for the area (number of staff etc).

So the company makes (my guess) about 25% in profit from the consumer at store. This is what keeps the production cycle up and investors interested in the company to support it.

The $40 they 'sell' it for to the GW store is used to cover shipping to the centre, management overheads, advertising, WD, the website maintenance and so on. Would they make money from staff selling at 50% - not sure... it depends on how its calculated. If you just look at the COGS (cost of goods) and deduct that number from what you sell the product for then yep - they will have a GP that is a positive number. Net though - not sure...

Reducing the retail price or running loss leader sales wont work as the product is a luxury item - and people will buy what they want rather than because its on special. When was the last time you saw Rolex or Ferrari do a sale? Same thing but on a much smaller scale. Also, as you can see above - selling that same $100 for a sale price of $80 means the company makes no money and being publicly listed it MUST make money or risk investor back lash. This is especially important right now with the end of financial year in the UK being end of May...

Akiasura wrote:

 Talys wrote:

I take issue with that asserion. If 40k is not that tactical a game, why do great players consistently perform well in tournaments? Are they just exceptionally lucky?

They hop to one of the better codexes in each edition. Recently TOs changing the game has helped, but that's been the trend since 3rd edition.

Except that no particular faction sweeps the tournaments. You'd think it'd be all Decurion all the time from what you read in Dakka, but if you check the ITC tournament results, the tournament winner love is pretty spread out. Space Marines usually do pretty well, often taking the top spot, very often being in top 3.

Even Blood Angels placed second on a recent tournament. Surely, that's not because they have an OP codex.

Akiasura wrote:

I can't name many great players in 40k, not ones that consistently win major tournaments.
Competitive games usually have these great players that you can name, and that most of the veterans know.

At local tournaments, there are some vets that compete all the time that might not win, but always do quite well. I don't follow the larger competitive scene enough to name anyone either. Certainly, experience matters.

 Talys wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Talys wrote:

I take issue with that asserion. If 40k is not that tactical a game, why do great players consistently perform well in tournaments? Are they just exceptionally lucky?

They hop to one of the better codexes in each edition. Recently TOs changing the game has helped, but that's been the trend since 3rd edition.

Except that no particular faction sweeps the tournaments. You'd think it'd be all Decurion all the time from what you read in Dakka, but if you check the ITC tournament results, the tournament winner love is pretty spread out. Space Marines usually do pretty well, often taking the top spot, very often being in top 3.

Even Blood Angels placed second on a recent tournament. Surely, that's not because they have an OP codex.

Do you have a link for this? I'd be very curious to see what tournament a Blood Angel player did well in.
As I stated above, TO's are comping the game heavily to make it more fair. This is the first time this has been done to this extent in 40k. Before it was a soft score, if it was done at all, not flat out banning things.
Doing so makes the game more balanced.
Decurion hasn't been out very long either, I'd be surprised if they are winning the tournaments yet. People said the same thing about Bradigus in WMH, it took a while before it started doing well. Once it did, it was incredibly overpowered and PP was forced to issue a huge nerf to the faction to compensate.
SM are one of the strongest faction in the game, due to the deathstar. Of course, most deathstars aren't allowed in tournaments, so it depends on which tournament we are talking about. Still, they have a lot of strong options and aren't one of the weaker dexes.

DE, DA, BA (hence why I'm curious), CSM, and Orks are some of the weaker dexes.

 Talys wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

I can't name many great players in 40k, not ones that consistently win major tournaments.
Competitive games usually have these great players that you can name, and that most of the veterans know.

At local tournaments, there are some vets that compete all the time that might not win, but always do quite well. I don't follow the larger competitive scene enough to name anyone either. Certainly, experience matters.

Akiasura wrote:
Do you have a link for this? I'd be very curious to see what tournament a Blood Angel player did well in.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/2015-itc-event-results/

First event (Edmonton Onslaught). The BA player placed third. Top spot went to Imperial Guard, again, hardly a power codex. The best Eldar placed 5th, the best Taut 7th.

Akiasura wrote:


SM are one of the strongest faction in the game, due to the deathstar. Of course, most deathstars aren't allowed in tournaments, so it depends on which tournament we are talking about. Still, they have a lot of strong options and aren't one of the weaker dexes.

DE, DA, BA (hence why I'm curious), CSM, and Orks are some of the weaker dexes.

Invisibility is nerfed at ITC, IIRC. There are actually some tournaments where DE and DA fared ok too. But your point is well taken. Also, some of the codices are less "weak" as they are unforgiving (DE).

Your point about modified rules is absolutely right; they make the game better.

 Talys wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Do you have a link for this? I'd be very curious to see what tournament a Blood Angel player did well in.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/2015-itc-event-results/

First event (Edmonton Onslaught). The BA player placed third. Top spot went to Imperial Guard, again, hardly a power codex. The best Eldar placed 5th, the best Taut 7th.

In the TO created environment, which is very different from the raw game, certain dexes move up and some move down.
If you look at the next 4 tournaments, you see results you would expect. The event you name seems to be mostly one club, so I imagine it is a somewhat local event.

 Talys wrote:

Akiasura wrote:


SM are one of the strongest faction in the game, due to the deathstar. Of course, most deathstars aren't allowed in tournaments, so it depends on which tournament we are talking about. Still, they have a lot of strong options and aren't one of the weaker dexes.

DE, DA, BA (hence why I'm curious), CSM, and Orks are some of the weaker dexes.

Invisibility is nerfed at ITC, IIRC. There are actually some tournaments where DE and DA fared ok too. But your point is well taken. Also, some of the codices are less "weak" as they are unforgiving (DE).

Your point about modified rules is absolutely right; they make the game better.

Yes, with invisibility nerfed, certain factions going from amazing to merely good (Looking at you Daemons).
Armies that lack invis also get a huge buff, so this helps curb the power levels both ways. This isn't the raw game though, considering the power changes it's practically a new game with a completely different meta.
I notice that when I flip through the tourney results, the top couple of players tend to be similar armies. Not the power dexes in the raw game, since it is a different meta, but it is a trend.

This is no different from SSBB. Metaknight was easily the best character in the entire game. There really is no arguing this. Look up tournaments won by MK, and you will find very few, since he was banned relatively quickly in competitive play, leading people to make false conclusions.

De used to be an unforgiving but strong codex. My competitive friend who is the best player has mained De more than any other army, but hasn't played them in a long time.
Now it's just weak. Going second can cripple the army.

Akiasura wrote:
De used to be an unforgiving but strong codex. My competitive friend who is the best player has mained De more than any other army, but hasn't played them in a long time.
Now it's just weak. Going second can cripple the army.

Anecdotal evidence. I played DE at the ETC in 2012, won the masters event here in WA 2012 and numerous RT events since then with them - so they must be excellent - see how silly that sounds? I would not say they are weak - just very limited in builds and reliant on good match ups for them to do well consistently.

Back on topic though - in regards to the D weapons - what if every distort weapon in the elder codex suffered the -1 to the table? Would that fix concerns?

I means you never have the whole "Oh look a 6 - I win" and as such will always get cover and ++ saves. The WK in particular is easier to stomach points wise with this penalty.

Hmmm the limited book is sold out, I don't think your tactics are working...

 Kelly502 wrote:
Hmmm the limited book is sold out, I don't think your tactics are working...

When you've got a print run of 500-1000, it's easy to sell out in a single day. Don't take things like that as any sort of telling indicators of anything. There are thousands of people that buy literally everything GW comes out with just because.

 Kelly502 wrote:
Hmmm the limited book is sold out, I don't think your tactics are working...

They sold a whopping 800 copies out of 1-2 million customers. That isn't an indication of success, just further proof that their lack of market research makes them unable to correctly predict demand on this type of product.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kelly502 wrote:
Hmmm the limited book is sold out, I don't think your tactics are working...

When you've got a print run of 500-1000, it's easy to sell out in a single day. Don't take things like that as any sort of telling indicators of anything. There are thousands of people that buy literally everything GW comes out with just because.

I dunno man. I buy a crap ton of stuff, and I came close on the Eldar LE book, but I have never been able to bring myself to pull the trigger on the limited edition book. It's just SO much more.... not really a factor of, "can I afford it" as ... "WTF... $200...?!?!?!"

You have to REALLY love a faction (or I guess, GW/40k) to blow that kind of money to get a nicer cover, and uh.. free cards and 6 tactical objective markers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Toofast wrote:

 Kelly502 wrote:
Hmmm the limited book is sold out, I don't think your tactics are working...

They sold a whopping 800 copies out of 1-2 million customers. That isn't an indication of success, just further proof that their lack of market research makes them unable to correctly predict demand on this type of product.

If it is 800.... That's about 800 copies more than I thought rational people would buy. About 700 more copies than I thought there would be people in the world that would purchase. But I think that with every LE book, and can never understand how it sells out.

I was looking at the LE Skitarii book. It was absolutely beautiful, but there is no way I could defend that purchase to myself. And I'm the guy that payed ~$350 for 4 lightbulbs because I can change their colour from my phone.

 Purifier wrote:
I was looking at the LE Skitarii book. It was absolutely beautiful, but there is no way I could defend that purchase to myself. And I'm the guy that payed ~$350 for 4 lightbulbs because I can change their colour from my phone.

LOL. Hey, totally off topic. Do those lightbulbs consume much energy when they are turned off? Because, they use WiFi and are always listening, right?

One reason I don't buy an LE book is that once I cross the line, it will be easier to justify the next time (if you do something stupid, and you're ok, it MUST be ok to do it again... right????). And the last thing I want to do is buy Eldar, Space Marine, Tau LE books...

By the way: if you have a good relationship with your FLGS, they CAN order these, and they receive their discounts on it (and therefore, may pass some discount on to you). However, there may be shipping involved, raising their cost.

 Massaen wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
De used to be an unforgiving but strong codex. My competitive friend who is the best player has mained De more than any other army, but hasn't played them in a long time.
Now it's just weak. Going second can cripple the army.

Anecdotal evidence. I played DE at the ETC in 2012, won the masters event here in WA 2012 and numerous RT events since then with them - so they must be excellent - see how silly that sounds? I would not say they are weak - just very limited in builds and reliant on good match ups for them to do well consistently.

Back on topic though - in regards to the D weapons - what if every distort weapon in the elder codex suffered the -1 to the table? Would that fix concerns?

I means you never have the whole "Oh look a 6 - I win" and as such will always get cover and ++ saves. The WK in particular is easier to stomach points wise with this penalty.

In a discussion like this, anecdotal evidence is mostly what everyone is using.
I can say that the dex is terribly internally imbalanced.
I can say that their special characters are now a step down from the exarchs from the eldar book.
I can say that poison seems to be getting worse each codex that releases. Units that were afraid of it becoming GMC, Necrons becoming much tougher against it.
I can say that their transports are weak versus several options and fails to protect the troops well enough.

Really, you can always go to the DE tactics thread. It's one of the larger ones, and it's not what I would call a positive thread.
And winning three years ago doesn't mean much...from 2012 to now we've had a new edition and a lot of new codexes. So yeah, that does sound incredibly silly
Saying someone is reliant on good match ups is really the definition of a bottom tier option. Eldar, Necrons, and SM in the raw game do not need comp or a good match up, they can play against anyone and expect to do alright. Daemons too.



People say DE is an army that requires skill and is weak otherwise because, for most of the game, that is how it was. It's no longer the case. I'd need to see options in it that are competitive in today's meta, but difficult to utilize correctly.
To be fair, the tournament rankings Talys just showed me didn't have De doing that well.

 Talys wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
I was looking at the LE Skitarii book. It was absolutely beautiful, but there is no way I could defend that purchase to myself. And I'm the guy that payed ~$350 for 4 lightbulbs because I can change their colour from my phone.

LOL. Hey, totally off topic. Do those lightbulbs consume much energy when they are turned off? Because, they use WiFi and are always listening, right?

One reason I don't buy an LE book is that once I cross the line, it will be easier to justify the next time (if you do something stupid, and you're ok, it MUST be ok to do it again... right????). And the last thing I want to do is buy Eldar, Space Marine, Tau LE books...

By the way: if you have a good relationship with your FLGS, they CAN order these, and they receive their discounts on it (and therefore, may pass some discount on to you). However, there may be shipping involved, raising their cost.

Dunno how much power, never measured it, but yeah, they're always listening on the wifi. Can't imagine it's any meaningful amount of power though. My phone is always listening on the wifi and doing a whole lot of other things too, and it's still managing on just a slim battery.

My (F)LGS sells at the exact same price as GW website, and they wouldn't even give me a 10% discount when I said I wanted 7 skitarii chickenwalkers and 3 dunecrabs.
So I took my business to Element Games instead.

Are you really that butt hurt about some new rules for models yh they are powerful but its just a game your life doesn't depend on it have fun and stop whining you sound like a bunch of 5 year olds who don't get what they want it seriously mature the game is about adapting to what your fighting against you can just ban a race from tournaments, think about it all the eldar players who have spent thousands on getting there armies and then boom they can't use them if it were the other way round and your army got banned cause some butt hurt power gamers hated them you would be pretty pissed you had spent all that money and now its out the window. so stop being butt hurt go play the game have fun and enjoy your self its not all about winning so please grow a pair and stop acting like prepubescent 5 year olds....

dale_house wrote:
Are you really that butt hurt about some new rules for models yh they are powerful but its just a game your life doesn't depend on it have fun and stop whining you sound like a bunch of 5 year olds who don't get what they want it seriously mature the game is about adapting to what your fighting against you can just ban a race from tournaments, think about it all the eldar players who have spent thousands on getting there armies and then boom they can't use them if it were the other way round and your army got banned cause some butt hurt power gamers hated them you would be pretty pissed you had spent all that money and now its out the window. so stop being butt hurt go play the game have fun and enjoy your self its not all about winning so please grow a pair and stop acting like prepubescent 5 year olds....

There are no words, only orkmoticons

Rule One is Be Polite. Please don't make a discussion about toy soldiers personal. Thanks!

The ellipsis suggests that his keyboard does have the period.