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No offense but, why the ads? I'm already a DCM and pledged. At least make the X more viewable, I haven't found it yet.

 d-usa wrote:
There are two threads so far:

1) The Kickstarter thread: where we talk about stuff going on directly to do with the kickstarter.
2) The fluff/background/wishlisting thread (aka: this thread): everything related to the game and universe itself.

This thread has now devolved into lots of off-topic talk that should be thread #3: "the mods are preventing me from saying anything bad about the game" and "thread #1 and thread #2 are moderated worse than all other threads".

That topic is OT in either thread since it doesn't have anything to do with the actual subjects in either thread. If people are scared of persecution I will gladly volunteer to throw up a "Are MODs agents of SAS? Click here and find out!" thread either in discussion or Nuts & Bolts (whichever would be more appropriate) so that nobody else has to worry about biting the bullet.

This thread was also meant to discuss Kickstarter strategy, which definitely includes community interactions with the creators, or the perception of it. Posters have listed that as a concern that affected their decisions to back the project or not. Seems fair game.


However, I really would like to discuss positive things that SAS or even we can do to help MEdge be a success at retail launch. Should there be an outrider program? Prize support? Breakfast cereals? Free form slam poetry RPGs?

 Stormwall wrote:
No offense but, why the ads? I'm already a DCM and pledged. At least make the X more viewable, I haven't found it yet.

I'm cross-posting this from the main MEdge N&R thread:

This is the first time I've ever been unhappy with Dakka...

I'm truly sorry about that, and I hope that you can forgive us.

Since we purchased Dakka in 2007, we have made dozens of decisions over that time to preserve user experience in exchange for not maximizing potential revenue for the site. My mantra has always been that as long as the site pays for its own operation, then every decision beyond that is based upon the concept of: 'does this make the user experience better?'

Anyone out there who thinks we've made a ton of money operating Dakka over the years is sorely mistaken. We have purposely kept Dakka as ad-free (as possible) to maintain that user experience, despite continuing to add incredibly costly benefits like the free picture hosting of the Dakka gallery and continually upgrading our servers to handle the increased user load (as the popularity of Dakka has continued to climb). Not to mention all the man-hours that go into actually running and maintaining the site for which we take no pay.

While the success of Maelstrom's Edge is incredibly important to us, it is not some cash cow we're trying to milk. The realities of plastic miniature production means that an incredible amount of capital has to be invested up front with the intent to make back those costs (and hopefully a profit) over the long term. So Maelstrom's Edge is very much a passion project for all of us. We didn't create it to try to make a buck, but rather because we wanted to make something we thought would be cool and hoped that others would also find cool as well. Yes, Maelstrom's Edge will go to market at this point regardless of how much or how little more we raise on the KS, but having a strong closing can definitely really help to push the project forward, and that in turn could eventually help to fund Dakka, ensuring that we can continue to grow the site without adding new permanent advertising.

However, part of trying to do what we can to get our message across about MEdge does obviously involve temporarily breaking some of those core ideals and putting fairly annoying ads here on Dakka. So again, I apologize for that. Please know that we will not be running further Kickstarters for MEdge in the future, and these advertisements are very temporary (just until the end of the KS in 5-ish days). I hope you can empathize with all that hard work and effort we've put into running Dakka for many years where the focus has been on putting the user experience first, and cut us some slack for this temporary breach of etiquette.

 Accolade wrote:
1) I think the Epicarians are ripe for receiving exo-suits. Something perhaps similar to Edge of Tomorrow

I think it would mesh really well with their concept, make the individual soldiers more intimidating, and frankly there aren't enough exo-suit models on the market (it feels rather untapped).

That's actually what I started work on for my next drawing, since my drone design ran into setbacks*.

* In particular, working out how to best stow the nosecone/heat shield on the front of the torso. And yes, that means what you think it means.

2) Unique aliens races. 40k is good with having a diverse range of armies to choose from, but most of it is fantasy-in-space rather than actual unique alien concepts. Tyranids (derivative of the alien from Aliens) and Tau (derivative of anime to a degree) are really the only unique alien concepts that have been explored significantly. I feel that most other sci-fi games haven't covered this area much, and usually we've just ended up with humanoids with different color skin and flaps on their face.

Developing some unique alien races would be a huge boon IMO for this game and draw in (again) a rather untapped market.

Sure, as long as they are done right. Don't make them look goofy *cough*orx*cough* and don't make them so blatantly inferior *cough*zombies*cough*space rats*cough* that it is offensive to suggest they are humanity's equals, and they'd at least be something I'd like to see across the table, if not in my own collection.

4) More female characters. I feel a good way to do this would be through the Dark Eldar concept 40k, where female soldiers are mixed in with regular grunts intermittently. That way people who want the extremes (i.e. all-female or all-male) could simply do extra purchasing to get what they want. Kickstarters for things like Raging Heroes shows that there is a significant fan base out there for just female models, so I think having the ability to purchase sprues of female models (perhaps sold in squad boxes with male soldiers?) would be great.

I obviously agree with most of this, apart from the mixed boxes. It might be necessary to cut down on the number of products being stocked, but it doesn't actually make the product better, since you can't mix and match the two sprues unless something has gone terribly wrong in your design work.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
More importantly, there is an objective reason for this. Alex Holker pointed it out pages ago. SAS brushed it off with talk about proportions and heroic scale, but it came across as if they missed his point. The Epirians are not in Heroic Scale at all. They are in no scale that works.

When you look at a stylized cartoon, say the new Justice League with their exaggerated proportions, you don't see something off and disquieting. The Uncanny Valley may have been debunked as a legitimate psychological phenomenon, but the term exists and finds use because it is a very useful descriptor that says "something's off about that guy" and the Epirians fit in the uncanny valley. Here's why: even silly overexaggerated cartoons keep some proportions accurate, sucah as the ratio of the upper arm to the forearm, the ratio of the neck to the head, the length of the arms in comparison to the upper torso, the proportion of the shins to the thighs, and so on. On the Epirian contractor, some of these proportions are off. When an observer's mind corrects for the Heroic Scale, he will still find that the mini doesn't look right. Alex Holker made some great sketches that demonstrated this point beautifully.

We're not talking about design aesthetics but rather sculpting execution. The design looks great in the sketches, and the majority of it survives intact into the miniatures. Their human anatomy is all borked up, however, and that puts some people off. Quite a lot of people, potentially.

There are actually two of us who have posted sketches for "better" proportions in this thread. I think you're referring to Smacks' work, where he was talking about the more general case of cartoonish exaggeration that doesn't stop you thinking "Yep, that's a human," while I've just been sketching one more specific form of exaggeration.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
There are two threads so far:

1) The Kickstarter thread: where we talk about stuff going on directly to do with the kickstarter.
2) The fluff/background/wishlisting thread (aka: this thread): everything related to the game and universe itself.

This thread has now devolved into lots of off-topic talk that should be thread #3: "the mods are preventing me from saying anything bad about the game" and "thread #1 and thread #2 are moderated worse than all other threads".

That topic is OT in either thread since it doesn't have anything to do with the actual subjects in either thread. If people are scared of persecution I will gladly volunteer to throw up a "Are MODs agents of SAS? Click here and find out!" thread either in discussion or Nuts & Bolts (whichever would be more appropriate) so that nobody else has to worry about biting the bullet.

This thread was also meant to discuss Kickstarter strategy, which definitely includes community interactions with the creators, or the perception of it. Posters have listed that as a concern that affected their decisions to back the project or not. Seems fair game.

Community interactions with the creators doesn't include MODs though, they are just community members like you and me. That's why complaining about MOD behavior, perceived or real, would be considered off-topic in this thread. It's no different than about MOD behavior in a thread about GW or Infinity or Mantic, it doesn't really have much to do with the topic because the MODs are not creators or employees of SAS, GW, Infinity, or Mantic.

 d-usa wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
There are two threads so far:

1) The Kickstarter thread: where we talk about stuff going on directly to do with the kickstarter.
2) The fluff/background/wishlisting thread (aka: this thread): everything related to the game and universe itself.

This thread has now devolved into lots of off-topic talk that should be thread #3: "the mods are preventing me from saying anything bad about the game" and "thread #1 and thread #2 are moderated worse than all other threads".

That topic is OT in either thread since it doesn't have anything to do with the actual subjects in either thread. If people are scared of persecution I will gladly volunteer to throw up a "Are MODs agents of SAS? Click here and find out!" thread either in discussion or Nuts & Bolts (whichever would be more appropriate) so that nobody else has to worry about biting the bullet.

This thread was also meant to discuss Kickstarter strategy, which definitely includes community interactions with the creators, or the perception of it. Posters have listed that as a concern that affected their decisions to back the project or not. Seems fair game.

Community interactions with the creators doesn't include MODs though, they are just community members like you and me. That's why complaining about MOD behavior, perceived or real, would be considered off-topic in this thread. It's no different than about MOD behavior in a thread about GW or Infinity or Mantic, it doesn't really have much to do with the topic because the MODs are not creators or employees of SAS, GW, Infinity, or Mantic.

But they are answerable to Yak and Lego. I can't tell which Mods are involved in SAS and which are just fans. I doubt most posters are real clear on the difference, either. It might even matter. This is Dakka's official game, which naturally will draw a mental connection to Dakka's officials.

Bob, just for reference, none of the mods are connected to the game other than yak and lego. Insaniak has done some amazing conversion work on a voluntary basis, but so have other Dakka posters, such as Panic.

I haven't said much because I think it's all been covered one way or another and I am Really busy with my own campaign (like not sleeping busy ). But I am looking forward to making my rusted out drone army stranded on a world near the Edge and fallen into disrepair.

On that note, I still need to line up someone to trade my second box of Karists to for their Epirians, PM me if interested!

We are answerable to yak and lego about moderation. That's about it.

I'll be honest here, as to me the Maelstorms edge seems to be quite lackluster. However I should probably elaborate that a bit so that the mods don't come at night and beat me up.

1. It appeared at the wrong time. Before maelstorms edge there has been countles kickstarters, which means that in order to appear interesting the product has to stand out, which Maelstorms edge does not appear to me to do, due to the reasons in the next point.

2. The models appear clumsy. Even though the models might have several posing options, they seem a bit clunky and unnatural in their poses, which makes them look very unappealing. Also, the the bare heads seem a bit unnatural and deformed.

3. The models are too expensive. 90 dolalrs for only a bit more than 20 models is way too much, as even GW models could compete with those prices, which means that for example infinity seems like a far better option.

 Sienisoturi wrote:
3. The models are too expensive. 90 dolalrs for only a bit more than 20 models is way too much, as even GW models could compete with those prices, which means that for example infinity seems like a far better option.

The listing on the right hand side of the kickstarter is locked and creators are not allowed to edit it if it has any pledges. The content is as shown in the main part of the kickstarter page, giving 39 multipart, multipose plastic models for $90, as well as the card game, accessories and likely the terrain sprue as well.

Forgive the mention of J Class yacht racing but GW's new Space Assault Marine models are over $8 each, so you would get about 11 of them for $90. It's just an infantry figure with a big jetpack and a sword.

The most recent diorama by the team. It's very good, the artist has impressive skills (is it Winterdyne?). But it does highlight the failings in the miniatures.
The right shoulder of the guy on the left is half the width of his torso. What steroids are these boys on to get their bodies looking like that? The butt of the gun the man on the right is holding is a very good representation of what the weapons look like in real life. Big and blocky and completely out of scale with everything.

 Spiral Arm Studios wrote:
If you fail an activation discipline check, then you'll automatically get to shake-off an extra D3 suppression, no matter what (2D3). Then on top of that, if the unit is pinned as part of the action where it fails that activation discipline check, then you shake-off an extra D3 suppression on top of that (so 3D3).

Sounds like dice rolling for the sake of dice rolling. This is precisely one of the reasons I stopped playing GW games. Suppression (which is about the only thing maintaining any interest for me in MEdge) does sound like a great gameplay mechanic, the way it is being implemented does not.

 Henry wrote:

The right shoulder of the guy on the left is half the width of his torso.

His shoulder isn't that wide. Compare it to the left shoulder, and look at how the shoulder pads are sitting... His right elbow is out and raised, and so most of that apparent width is just the way the shoulder pad is sitting on the upper arm.

 insaniak wrote:
His shoulder isn't that wide. Compare it to the left shoulder, and look at how the shoulder pads are sitting... His right elbow is out and raised, and so most of that apparent width is just the way the shoulder pad is sitting on the upper arm.

If that's the case then what the heck is going on with that forearm? I thought it was there because his arm was coming straight down. If the arm is angled out slightly then that means his forearms are monstrously huge.

 Henry wrote:

 Spiral Arm Studios wrote:
If you fail an activation discipline check, then you'll automatically get to shake-off an extra D3 suppression, no matter what (2D3). Then on top of that, if the unit is pinned as part of the action where it fails that activation discipline check, then you shake-off an extra D3 suppression on top of that (so 3D3).

Sounds like dice rolling for the sake of dice rolling. This is precisely one of the reasons I stopped playing GW games. Suppression (which is about the only thing maintaining any interest for me in MEdge) does sound like a great gameplay mechanic, the way it is being implemented does not.

I wish they went more of a Bolt Action / Gates of Antares suppression mechanism. In those games if a unit / big model shoots your unit and hits with one of its shots you get a suppression (they call it "pin") marker. When you activate your unit, if that unit has one or more pin markers it must make a morale test to see if it will perform its action or just go "down" (i.e. take cover / hit the dirt). The way you do it is you take the morale value of the troops (its either 8,9, or 10) and you subtract the number of pin markers and that is the number you need to roll equal to or under on 2D6. If you pass you can do your action normally and you remove 1 pin marker. There is a special "rally" order which you can remove 1+1D6 pin markers. If you have a number of pin markers = or greater than your morale value, the unit is counted as destroyed or fleeing and you remove it from the table.

It is simple, not much die rolling, you do not need lots of pin markers.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Forgive the mention of J Class yacht racing but GW's new Space Assault Marine models are over $8 each, so you would get about 11 of them for $90. It's just an infantry figure with a big jetpack and a sword.

However you could get more models cheaper from GW by buing the dark vengeance.

 Sienisoturi wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Forgive the mention of J Class yacht racing but GW's new Space Assault Marine models are over $8 each, so you would get about 11 of them for $90. It's just an infantry figure with a big jetpack and a sword.

However you could get more models cheaper from GW by buing the dark vengeance.

FWIW, you cant make a direct comparison as DV are snap together mono-pose plastics, whereas Medge is almost all multi-part and poseable plastics, and there are duplicate models in dark vengeance whereas every Medge model can assembled in a distinct way with a choice of weapon options. On top of that, while DV is 49 models, Medge is currently 39 models and a massive terrain sprue (unlocked in $14 time), and a card game, and way more tokens and extras, and it is still £5 cheaper in the UK and $10 cheaper in the US. A better price comparison with GW would be one of their army boxes where you get the multi-part, multi-pose models, with multiple weapon options, and then it is a no-brainer which is better raw value.

 Henry wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
His shoulder isn't that wide. Compare it to the left shoulder, and look at how the shoulder pads are sitting... His right elbow is out and raised, and so most of that apparent width is just the way the shoulder pad is sitting on the upper arm.

If that's the case then what the heck is going on with that forearm? I thought it was there because his arm was coming straight down. If the arm is angled out slightly then that means his forearms are monstrously huge.

The forearms do look to be the same size as the heads, which is...odd. Add in legs and body proportions and shoulders set with a spirit level which just mean, to me, that the Epirian Contractors just look off.

@Legoburner, fair call on the DV and MEdge box comparison. What I would say is the DV plastics are arguably some of the best monopose push fit miniatures ever released and some of the MEdge miniatures seemingly have limited options in terms of customisation, The Angel has one head and one set of tentacle leg things, without having to resort to a hobby knife. As for other comparisons I would hope that the MEdge rules are far more elegant and balanced than the 40K ones.

I really wish that the KS Campaign had inspired me to back the project but it just falls short for me. But given the work that the creators have put into MEdge (the background, rules, minis, card stock etc etc) over a course of years I can understand why some of the reaction to criticism and advice has been viewed as overly defensive.

The thing is this is just the start of the MEdge universe, to expect any new game to be perfect from the start is overly ambitious, hopefully the KS is a brilliant learning tool for the creators and the game goes from strength to strength as a result of it.

 insaniak wrote:

 Henry wrote:

The right shoulder of the guy on the left is half the width of his torso.

His shoulder isn't that wide. Compare it to the left shoulder, and look at how the shoulder pads are sitting... His right elbow is out and raised, and so most of that apparent width is just the way the shoulder pad is sitting on the upper arm.

Sure looks total natural

I guess Bob's shoulder gate is real
Anyway if the Eperians are modeled after Arnold Schwarzenegger it make sense other wise the proportions of the shoulders, upper and under arms are off.

Acknowledgement is the first step to healing!

And talking about exo skeletons Anvil industries afterlife line has some nice Exo-suits or exo appendages in their line.

I said I was going to have my own go at an exo-suit and I have, but I can't say I'm happy with where it's sitting at the moment. I was going for something inspired by the Scarecrows and by Command and Conquer's Zone Troopers and Zone Raiders.

If anyone would like to throw their two cents in, I'd like to hear some outside opinions.

Mymearan wrote:
As an answer to bob's post, for me it's all about the miniature design. There has been a lot (too much imo) of talk about how technically complex the sprues are, and how well the minis go together... and honestly I don't care. First and foremost I want the miniatures to look amazing, no matter how they are produced. And they don't. I get a 90s feel from most of the ME minis, in terms of design sensibilities, sculpt detail, posing etc. The golden standard for me when it comes to plastic is stuff like GW or Kingdom Death, and ME isn't even close to being in the same ballpark as those. It's a whole different league, no matter how many sliding moulds have been used. The rules sound very cool, the fluff interesting, but none of that matters if I don't like the models. That's the sad truth of it in my case.

It also doesn't help that the Angel was hyped, and then when shown, was revealed to be... well, my favorite quote was "So that thing can take the form of whatever it wants... and it chose this?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 legoburner wrote:
The majority who have passed on the kickstarter have largely done so for anti-kickstarter reasons and most people start games by word of mouth rather than being exposed to it.

With all due respect, is the bolded part above based on anecdotal observations or on a poll where respondents can choose one or more answers?

I have passed on the Kickstarter personally because I am overwhelmingly not a fan of the sculpts nor the rules.
I have backed approximately 50 other Kickstarters.
But that is my anecdotal evidence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
This, to be honest, is where a lot of the perceived problem is coming from. There's this small group of people who dislike aspects of the project who seem to take any disagreement with their opinion as censure, dismissal, or the work of paid shills, rather than as simply the presentation of a differing opinion.

You have totally invented this. Paid shills, really? True, I dislike the overwhelming majority of this project. I was critical at first because I did care; now I simply do not, so I don't really post anymore. In the News thread, I was the first person to post a negative impression and apparently caused a huge flurry of activity behind the scenes. I was asked to not be critical of anything in the News thread, and Bob created this one. It was apparent that the creators simply don't care for input, as the design work is already done and the rules are already done. Therefore, there's zero community input, which is fine, and when that became apparent, I stopped contributing.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azazelx wrote:
KS Fatigue in general, I can see.

I do not believe this is the case at all. As has been stated numerous times, everything is ready to go and will ship quite soon. We've got hard plastic models that are ready to ship, and rules that have been previewed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Here's a perfect example. This post and the few preceding it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1980/644194.page#7856059

That would be (and is) completely normal discussion in any other KS thread. In the ME thread, however...

It would have been off-topic in any other thread as well, for exactly the reason stated.

A certain amount of off-topic chatter is generally tolerated, but if it looks like it's going to divert the thread from the actual discussion, it's better to take it elsewhere. My request to do that in this case wasn't an attempt to stifle discussion (or I would have just said to stop it, rather than to take it elsewhere) but simply to move it somewhere it could continue without muddying the Kickstarter thread.

I don't believe it would have. We were never asked to take conversation about Shadokesh or Space Soviets out of the Dreamforge thread. We were never told to take wishlisting about Abyssals or nature elementals out of KoW threads. I don't mean the current threads, either, but back when those concepts were considered way off possibilities.

Have you seen the last few pages of discussion in the Mantic Sci Fi N&R / Warpath pre-KS news thread? It is entirely devoted to criticism of the alpha rules,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
There are two threads so far:

1) The Kickstarter thread: where we talk about stuff going on directly to do with the kickstarter.
2) The fluff/background/wishlisting thread (aka: this thread): everything related to the game and universe itself.

This thread has now devolved into lots of off-topic talk that should be thread #3: "the mods are preventing me from saying anything bad about the game" and "thread #1 and thread #2 are moderated worse than all other threads".

That topic is OT in either thread since it doesn't have anything to do with the actual subjects in either thread. If people are scared of persecution I will gladly volunteer to throw up a "Are MODs agents of SAS? Click here and find out!" thread either in discussion or Nuts & Bolts (whichever would be more appropriate) so that nobody else has to worry about biting the bullet.

Let me direct you to the OP of this thread, and you tell me what the point of this thread is. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/645537.page#7773721

 AlexHolker wrote:
I said I was going to have my own go at an exo-suit and I have, but I can't say I'm happy with where it's sitting at the moment. I was going for something inspired by the Scarecrows and by Command and Conquer's Zone Troopers and Zone Raiders.

If anyone would like to throw their two cents in, I'd like to hear some outside opinions.

I will say a few things that came to my mind from seeing this. Mind you, I usually look at things from a practical point of view.

1. I am very happy that you made the actual hands of the wearer different to the hands of the suit, as it makes far more sense that way.

2. I like the idea of having a kind of a cupola around the head instead of a helmet, but I think it needs far more armour, as now it looks way too vulnerable.

3. I get that you tried to achieve a more feminine look with the waist, but the power armour looks like it is having problems carrying the weight of the upper body with such a small core.

 judgedoug wrote:

...snip...

In the News thread, I was the first person to post a negative impression and apparently caused a huge flurry of activity behind the scenes. I was asked to not be critical of anything in the News thread, and Bob created this one. It was apparent that the creators simply don't care for input, as the design work is already done and the rules are already done. Therefore, there's zero community input, which is fine, and when that became apparent, I stopped contributing.

...snip...

Disappointing if I read that right [being asked to stop criticism in a Kicstarter thread]. Though if true, I suppose it makes sense commercially if SAS leverage their unique position to control the discussion somewhat. But, surely they'd have anticipated criticism and be in a position to deal with it head on? Look at the average Mantic KS thread or even the Mierce thread. Some of the comments are positively toxic and hostile, yet they still fund. I mean, this is a commercial product and it was bound to be reviewed by myriad individuals in time.

 judgedoug wrote:

... snip ...

I was critical at first because I did care; now I simply do not, so I don't really post anymore.

... snip ...

Yeah, that's how I feel. My interest went from "Ooo interesting" through to "surely they're not production pieces" and then on to "they're doing what" and finally to "hurry up and let this KS finish".

What exactly is it they're doing that's causing more heartburn in people? I mean, I can understand that they tried to deflect criticism in the beginning, but how exactly have things gotten worse? They doubled the content of the starter, they put up buttons to close the ads, they've cut back on mod commentary significantly since it seems that commenting with the MOD tag immediately seems to be equated with helicopter'ing the thread. What great sin has SAS/Dakka done recently that were saying "they did WHAT now?" I seriously hope none of these commenters play GW products, because they're liable to have a heart attack sometime in the near future.

 Accolade wrote:
What exactly is it they're doing that's causing more heartburn in people? I mean, I can understand that they tried to deflect criticism in the beginning, but how exactly have things gotten worse? They doubled the content of the starter, they put up buttons to close the ads, they've cut back on mod commentary significantly since it seems that commenting with the MOD tag immediately seems to be equated with helicopter'ing the thread. What great sin has SAS/Dakka done recently that were saying "they did WHAT now?" I seriously hope none of these commenters play GW products, because they're liable to have a heart attack sometime in the near future.

I think the "perceived" ignorance and downplaying of critique on mostly design aspects of miniatures as far as i can see.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
What exactly is it they're doing that's causing more heartburn in people? I mean, I can understand that they tried to deflect criticism in the beginning, but how exactly have things gotten worse? They doubled the content of the starter, they put up buttons to close the ads, they've cut back on mod commentary significantly since it seems that commenting with the MOD tag immediately seems to be equated with helicopter'ing the thread. What great sin has SAS/Dakka done recently that were saying "they did WHAT now?" I seriously hope none of these commenters play GW products, because they're liable to have a heart attack sometime in the near future.

I think the "perceived" ignorance and downplaying of critique on mostly design aspects of miniatures as far as i can see.

In other kick-starter threads you will note almost toxic spew back and forth, with people defending the good of the product and others criticizing or attacking the product's flaws. At the start of this, it was made sterile too quickly and too fast. That along with the above has basically made the thread go from the traditional, to just quiet silence. Normally even the mods get a bit dirty in the discussion, though they lack that here, which IMO makes it appear like the helicoptering people have been calling out. (When in reality, they are probably just supporting this product due to wanting it, or whatever stake they have in it.)

I guess to re-iterate, it's as if you are leaving a bar in the wild west, and instead of walking out to see two cowboys dueling and a flurry of onlookers, the town is instead deserted and tumbleweed is the only thing moving about. This is the only metaphor I can think of concerning the discussion now.

However, in SAS defense, they did fund marvelously. I have touched on this briefly before but, you go see Zed's post as Zed did a much, much better job with his post.

Also, to clarify. While I feel this way, I did ultimately back as I feel as if Dakka should have my continued support for what they offer and provide. While this KS has it's flaws, all KS have flaws and I honestly felt as if the product and team was worth supporting. I'm also not for seeing start-up dreams crushed, though that is off topic to say the least.

Edit: Would it be wrong to draw comparison from this KS fund amount to others? For instance, the Titanforge Terran Marine KS or whatever it was called, made 45k at the last second, and it was critically reviewed and based on their previous KS experiences (I wouldn't know as I wasn't around for those,) apparently they didn't do well by their customers. Yet, until this week or last this KS appeared to not be in a position to break the 45k wall.

What has plagued me is, why? This is a new company, the product is done, their employees are reputable and actually apart of the war-gaming scene, unlike most (yes, I'm aware that if it is done, it can't be changed.) Was it a lack of advertisement? I feel as if that is the only thing that TF one had on this.

I feel like this should have exploded and been double this. I mean, just look at the Raging Heros KS amount, and how they failed to even ship product on time.

Sorry for the rambling, I just wonder if anyone else has picked up on this. Also, it's early morning so forgive me if there are any logical fallacies or if this doesn't make sense/is overly melancholic.

Edit #2: I realize now this is probably more apt a post for the first thread, however, I was merely trying to reply to comments above me. My bad.

I have been following this since day one. Why people have been critical of this kick starter is beyond me.

The people that provide this website have put forward a game that addresses the bitchin of what is wrong with GW and have copped flak for it.

Yes they have not put forward the perfect game on the first go however; they have put forward an awesome concept and should be praised for this. I mean really, they took a chance and have put through a solid product.

You dont like the model that is fine, but some of us do. If we wanted to play the perfect game we would play yours..... Wait a sec you dont have a game do you. So lets not knock those that got off their ass and did something.

Everyone is entiltled to their opion but please, if you dont like it dont come to this thread to hang gak on it.

 Necro wrote:
I have been following this since day one. Why people have been critical of this kick starter is beyond me.

The people that provide this website have put forward a game that addresses the bitchin of what is wrong with GW and have copped flak for it.

Yes they have not put forward the perfect game on the first go however; they have put forward an awesome concept and should be praised for this. I mean really, they took a chance and have put through a solid product.

You dont like the model that is fine, but some of us do. If we wanted to play the perfect game we would play yours..... Wait a sec you dont have a game do you. So lets not knock those that got off their ass and did something.

Everyone is entiltled to their opion but please, if you dont like it dont come to this thread to hang gak on it.

So by that logic I have to be a painter to critic a piece of art? Oh wait... right. Also, by your logic the whole "vote with your wallet," thing applies. Which it appears by the comments that some definitely have.

Also, in the future I'd try to point out to who you are directing that to.

 Necro wrote:
I have been following this since day one. Why people have been critical of this kick starter is beyond me.

The people that provide this website have put forward a game that addresses the bitchin of what is wrong with GW and have copped flak for it.

Yes they have not put forward the perfect game on the first go however; they have put forward an awesome concept and should be praised for this. I mean really, they took a chance and have put through a solid product.

You dont like the model that is fine, but some of us do. If we wanted to play the perfect game we would play yours..... Wait a sec you dont have a game do you. So lets not knock those that got off their ass and did something.

Everyone is entiltled to their opion but please, if you dont like it dont come to this thread to hang gak on it.

First, this thread was specifically created for criticism because it was unwelcome in the main Kickstarter thread.
Second, the miniatures are really not that good.
Third, the rules are really not that good.

Note: If you had read this thread from the beginning, you would see that all three of these points have been discussed, and that, in fact, your post is entirely off-topic to the thread at hand.

Fourth, your post almost reads like a high-school-level course on "identify the logical fallacies".

And your post reads like 'I honestly believe I get to impose my tastes and ideas on others and am extremely confused and angry when people don't fall in line. I am super special and I know better than anyone else'.

And just a general statement here:

Like it, hate it. It doesn't matter, you do what you want. But when you start stating your opinions as fact, whether positive or negative, you become completely useless to discuss anything with. White Knights and Haters are entrenched and toxic to any real conversation. Your mind is made up, that's cool, but if you get a bug up your bonnet that people don't see it your way as if that is offensive in and of itself, then you have issues, whoever you are.

The idea that these threads have been overly moderated is a joke. You are confused, moderation means taking moderating actions via the powers only mods have. It means suspending and banning people, erasing offensive posts and such. No one was moderated, not one post has been removed, anywhere. What you have is a bunch of mods speaking as themselves as consumers just like anyone else. I know that a lot of people can't handle that, Mods being people with opinions and an interest in the hobby, but there you are. You can say that so many mods make you uncomfortable, especially if you really believe that they are just waiting to ban you the second you peep. I get that, really. But the FACT is that it never happened, and never will. They have been hands off to the point of it being a mistake in my opinion, because some of you surely broke the rules and were real donkey-caves at some points. So... don't spin this yarn you got moderated to death the entire time, because you absolutely, positively didn't.

The idea that the conversation has been sanitized to be universally positive and all criticism stamped out is very demonstrably false. All you have to do is read. Yes, one mod answered defensively of the product many times and rebutted other peoples opinions with his own. A lot. But argueing/debating is not moderating. The tone of things has been overwhelmingly crappy precisely because SAS/Mods took the high road and let from what I can see 8-10 people make a daily hobby of crapping on this venture while pretending to be 'helping' - without doing anything in response but giving polite responses and doing their best to address the things they could, and admitting they can't change the things they can't. It's not what some of you wanted to hear, but just because they can't accommodate you doesn't mean they are gakking on you or not hearing you. They may not be able to change something, they may not agree with you at all. That is something they are allowed to do btw, not agree with you personally. It doesn't make them jerks. If they listened and considered that is pretty good already if you ask me.

So honestly, you guys should have every right to like this, or not. You have every right to speak for yourselves within the general, universal rules of this site. What you shouldn't be allowed to do, in my opinion, is turn your opinions into facts and repeatedly warp the conversation in a malicious manner by claiming to be victims when you are anything but.

My 2 cents.

Moving onto happier things, hey, a heck of a lot of pledges past 24hrs! Looking like full bases may happen, and that for me was one of the things I really didn't care for. I think that will be a big help to the game and for modellers, and I certainly think the opportunities for making cool poses that leverage the HIPS plastic will explode once you have base scenery options to play off of... A Hunter busting through a wall, Angels GS'd to be flowing between boulders and whatnot with a little GS work. Could be very cool indeed IMHO.