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HAIL LORDS OF BLOOD AND SKULLS



Here's a short guide I decided to whip up with some thoughts I had about making a Khorne army feasible in tournaments with the advent of the new codex!

The first thing to understand is the codex's weaknesses.
DISADVANTAGES
1. Delivery Into Combat
This is a HUGE problem that plagues the entire codex. You have choppy units, but if you're facing a top tier army, you're going to be shot to shreds before getting in. Let's consider the main ways to get into combat:

Fast Units:
This is the main method most players use to get into combat fast. Just make the majority of your army fast as hell. Chaos Lords on Juggernauts, Flesh Hounds, Chaos Spawn, Maulerfiends, Heldrakes, Raptors, Warptalons (lol), Chaos Bikes, Bloodthirsters, Daemon Princes are all of the units that naturally can move 12"+ inches each turn. Limit the amount for opponent can shoot and take them down asap.

Land Raiders:
Have a slow unit that can obliterate another enemy unit, but it's slow as sloth on the field? Slap that bitch in a Land Raider and charge towards the enemy. Main problem with this? It's expensive, which is another issue I'll mention in the next codex weakness point.

Deepstriking
We've got a lot of daemons and deepstrikers in our codex, why not use this ability and appear in the opponent's back line? Well the main issue with this line of reasoning is the lack of shooting in a Khorne army. Aside from Skull Cannons and Bloodthirsters, none of the daemons can shoot when they deepstrike. You are a sitting duck for a turn and you will be fried off the board unless you have some tough as nails units, which even then are likely to be very expensive. Worst yet is the fact that winged DSers have to come in swooping and so are vulnerable for two turns! Such a waste. Terminators and Raptors can shoot, and so serve the purpose well, but they still are sitting in the open for a crucial turn. It's not a terrible option, but must be in a balanced army configuration.
HOWEVER:
An excellent point has been made that Bloodletters might be good choices to deepstrike in large amounts onto the field. They fill your troops slot, are inexpensive, can use their instrument to guarantee the rest of their friends' arrival, and a number of them might make it because the rest of your opponents army is shooting desperately at the incoming slaughter from your table half. They become relevant usually about the same time as troops in rhinos would be (damn that one turn of waiting after disembarking), but are much cheaper. These guy, cultists, and regular marines are the best options when it comes to troops. Zerkers a bit expensive.

Rhinos
A tough option, these guys are quick to move, but flimsy and don't allow your units to charge when they disembark. To make assault units in rhinos work, you need an "assault wave" approach where you have turn 2 assaulters,followed by turn 3 and turn 4. Your rhinos, if they make it, will be earliest turn 3, but very likely turn 4. That's a lot of turns of doing little to nothing. Possible, but I recommend sticking shooty units into these as lame as it is. You can also your your lovely inexpensive boxes as a mobile shield, granting cover to the units behind it (maybe tossing in some Belakor shrouding action on top), and blocking line of sight. Also they are one of the cheapest ways to get your delicious blood tithe flowing.

2. Overpriced Units
There are many units that fall into this category. 7th edition rules allow overwhelming amounts of fire and slow assault rules, which means you need guys that are tough and inexpensive, because your units will die without doing anything. The general rule of thumb is to make your points back or more with a unit. A unit of warp talons, for example, die as easily as marines do to bolter fire/lasguns/auto cannons, but cost a lot more points and are almost always going to be out in the open. It's overpriced and flimsy.

Insanely Overpriced Units (nonviable): Warp Talons, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, Lord of Skulls, Bloodcrushers, Defiler

Overpriced Units (not nonviable though): Bloodthirsters, Daemon Princes, Berserkers, Forgefiends

A lot of units. Forget the nonviable.

3. Lack of Anti-Air
We have Bloodthirsters, flying daemon princes, Soul Grinders, Heldrakes are our anti-air (not including allies and quad guns). Your thirsters, princes, and drakes are best spent on the ground and your Soul Grinder has a worse quad gun, and costs more points. He's a bit more flexible though.

4. Distance Disadvantage
What do I mean by this? Well your opponent, assuming you face a shooty army, will almost always have the luxury of selectively killing the biggest threat to their army first. Maulerfiends and Rhinos are great targets and are pretty crucial as you want to pop tanks so your Infantry slaughterers can go to work.

HOW TO HANDLE THESE WEAKNESS
Deal with Enemy Transports/Heavy Support. The key is simple against most armies: Open the tanks. I cannot stress this enough. You need these transports open and heavy support down so your assault army can go to work. Think about it. Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tau, Imperial Guard, and Necrons (some of the top tier armies), have high output transports. Kill them and you kill their maneuverability, a large amount of shooting against your army, and you can now get at the juicy insides with your assault units. The best ways to do this is termicide/raptorcide with meltaguns, or take allied CSM Havocs. Havocs have the best point to pen/glance value for lascannon and autocannon units. I recommend taking two autocannon units and use them to open tanks so your charging Daemonkin force doesn't get obliteratored.

Big, Tough, and Expensive Make powerful Units that can reach near invincibility. Juggernaut Stars is the most common way to approach this. Land Raiders with choppy warriors works fine too. One of my favorite and quite effective strategy is to take Belakor and use Shrouding and Invisibility. Park him, your juggerstar, thirster/prince, and maulerfiends behind a wall of rhinos and advance. Any winged units can jink for a 2+ cover with shrouding, your rhinos get 3+ cover when they pop smoke, and your Juggerstar and maulerfiend(s) gets 3+ cover behind the rhinos. You also get to make a unit of your choice invisible. Not bad.

Spam A classic strategy, pick your best, cheapest unit and spam it. Take 4 juggerlords and 6 maulerfiends! CHARGE!!!! Not a bad strategy either.

SPECIFIC COUNTERS

Monstrous Creatures (Riptides, Big Bugs, Wraith Robots, etc): Bloodthirsters of Insensate Rage (give them the D, can kill a riptide with a single charge), Khorne Hound Spam (roll those saves), Plasma spam (not great as it's expensive with your MoK marines), Axes of Khorne (instakill them! not a bad option as it can be taken by any champion, might be a secret technique we should try more), Maulerfiends (great option as its hard as heck for MCs to kill walkers, and they sure pack a punch. They also are one of Chaos' cheapest heavy support options and are speedy.)

Flyers: You need allies for this unless you just intend to ignore flyers and crush the ground forces (or spam soul grinders). Take Quad guns with allied havocs to work them.

Knights: Again, the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage is good option here. It might even kill this mammoth with one charge and live. (hopefully not 6s on the stomps). Otherwise, your general anti-tank will have to do (Maulerfiends, meltaguns, etc).

Heavily Armored Tanks: Guess what? The Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage is great here again. 8 strength D attacks on the charge will obliterate a Land Raider or Leman Russ. That said, a Maulerfiend can do the same for far less points. But which can survive the longest?

Horde Troops: Not too hard to deal with, take a drake, soulgrinder, or if you really are having trouble, flamers. Generally speaking your assault units output a lot of attack, so it should be easily manageable. If you did end up taking autocannon havocs, these are also good horde killers.

CONCLUSION

Generally speaking, I recommend structuring your army to kill transports easily and early. Include flexible units that can destroy specific problem units (like Insensate Rage Bloodthirsters and Riptides, or Termicide Meltas and Leman Russes). Choose inexpensive, fast units for the bulk of your army. Avoid the formations, they are too expensive and the summoning is too slow thanks to the deepstriking rules. You will also get plenty of blood tithe points naturally.

Did I mention kill the transports? KILL THE TRANSPORTS.

Go forth and kick space ass fellow champions. Let the blood flow and gain victory so you can shed even more blood.

Blood for the blood God dude.

Unfettered fury answers a lot of problems. Shame its 275 points and not very hard to kill. I want to double team him with belakor.

Not to be a prick or anything, but I think the strength D thirster is called Insensate Rage. Unfettered fury is the 250 point one that is identical to the old thirster. I still like the post, good food for thought about daemonkin. I am already committed to running a Blood Host with Khorne's bloodstorm myself (means I will be running "nonviable" possessed and warp talons), but I tend to worry less about winning and more about looking cool (I'm not good enough at the game yet to be super competitive even with a cheese list).

Hah. Yeah. D-thirster sounds better than 'insensate rage'.
And I don't see a use for the 300 pt one at all.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Hah. Yeah. D-thirster sounds better than 'insensate rage'.
And I don't see a use for the 300 pt one at all.

I must admit, Everytime I use him He gets shot down because no one wants him near : (

Hence the belakor buddying. Might keep him alive

My 1850 point list I think I've finalized has 16 different units in it. I think that spamming small units is the way to go.

It features about half the army Deep Striking in, and the other half being mostly units that can move 12" in the Movement Phase. Speed is the biggest factor in configuring an effective army in my eyes.

If a unit isn't fast (12" inch move) or can't Deep Strike, it won't make it to my lists.

I like the mass deepstriking. I normally go against trying to DS, but this army makes it very fun and effective(most of the time)

 Ignatius wrote:
My 1850 point list I think I've finalized has 16 different units in it. I think that spamming small units is the way to go.

It features about half the army Deep Striking in, and the other half being mostly units that can move 12" in the Movement Phase. Speed is the biggest factor in configuring an effective army in my eyes.

If a unit isn't fast (12" inch move) or can't Deep Strike, it won't make it to my lists.

MSU style seems to be best for KD.

You killed my dudes? Thanks for the Blood Tithe!

I wonder if KD CSM can take the Dreadclaw from IA13. They probably can't take it as Fast Attack (different Codex), but it says "can be taken as a Dedicated Transport for Chaos Space Marines".

Nah.. unless fw issues an errata to include daemonkin... Which they won't.

I sent them an email when the book was released.

Hi There


As it stands our Imperial armour books, miniatures and their rules held within these supplements are not designed to be used alongside other supplement books such as the Daemonkin supplement or Tempestus Scions supplement by Games Workshop. They are designed to be an individual supplement for your chosen force’s main codex.

At the moment there is no firm “ruling” or “Do’s and Don’ts” but we at Forge World encourage the use of “house rules” so if you ask your opponents for permission to use Forge World miniatures in your Daemonkin Army and they are okay with it then boom! Got ya’ self some awesome Daemon force to be reckoned with.

Other than that I would recommend keeping your retinals scanners on the Forge World Newsletters and downloads section of www.forgeworld.co.uk for more updates and everything shiny in the Forge World Range

I hope this helps and if you need anything further please give us a call.

So yeah. Unless an errata change things it's just for house ruled games. (Though every game is starting to feel like it requires house rules so that's something)

I feel that these questions are becoming less "Ask GW/FW" and more "Ask the torunament/your friends". If someone asked me if they could, I'd say yes, since it's logical (same unit with just some restrictions, after all), but that's just me.

It's easy enough to ally in stuff you really want

I like your analysis with only a couple of points of contention.

crimson_caesar wrote:
HAIL LORDS OF BLOOD AND SKULLS

Deepstriking
We've got a lot of daemons and deepstrikers in our codex, why not use this ability and appear in the opponent's back line? Well the main issue with this line of reasoning is the lack of shooting in a Khorne army. Aside from Skull Cannons and Bloodthirsters, none of the daemons can shoot when they deepstrike. You are a sitting duck for a turn and you will be fried off the board unless you have some tough as nails units, which even then are likely to be very expensive.

Of the lists I have put together and seen elsewhere bloodletters are about the only things I can see deepstriking (besides summoned units). For these guys, with their low survivability, why not put them backfield? The only thing they have is offensive capability and maybe objective secured. If left untouched in the backfield they can wipe units, wreck tanks, or steal an objective. Putting them back there forces the opponent to deal with them, taking fire from something else. If they die or mishap, so what? One or two tithe points is earned (depending on how they are equipped and the reading of the rules).

One strategy I have gleaned is putting an instrument on bloodletters and pulling warp talons in with them, getting a guaranteed unit from reserve and making them more reliable when arriving. I don't think this makes them viable but it is something to consider.

Rhinos
A tough option, these guys are quick to move, but flimsy and don't allow your units to charge when they disembark. To make assault units in rhinos work, you need an "assault wave" approach where you have turn 2 assaulters,followed by turn 3 and turn 4. Your rhinos, if they make it, will be earliest turn 3, but very likely turn 4. That's a lot of turns of doing little to nothing. Possible, but I recommend sticking shooty units into these as lame as it is.

Nothing to disagree here really but I just think rhinos are super valuable given that they have Blood for the Blood god! special rule. I don't care if they all get popped first turn or after I have moved them flat out. In fact, I hope they die. And when my duded disembark, I am putting my SGT out front for that other point. I want my 3 points for FNP.



Lastly, I like bloodcrushers, but that is all I will say about them.

I think when anything is free, it is worth the point cost

I disagree about Bloodletters being the only thing to Deep Strike. Roughly half of my army in the next tournament I am playing in will be Deep Striking.

I'll let y'all know how it goes.

Rhino wall providing a cheap LOS blocking moving wall that gives you bloodtithe points when they're killed then you give FNP to your army and charge in. You could even give them combimeltas for anti tank.

Sorry about the Dthirster name, I'll correct it.

Of the lists I have put together and seen elsewhere bloodletters are about the only things I can see deepstriking (besides summoned units). For these guys, with their low survivability, why not put them backfield? The only thing they have is offensive capability and maybe objective secured. If left untouched in the backfield they can wipe units, wreck tanks, or steal an objective. Putting them back there forces the opponent to deal with them, taking fire from something else. If they die or mishap, so what? One or two tithe points is earned (depending on how they are equipped and the reading of the rules).

One strategy I have gleaned is putting an instrument on bloodletters and pulling warp talons in with them, getting a guaranteed unit from reserve and making them more reliable when arriving. I don't think this makes them viable but it is something to consider.

This is an excellent point. A fine alternative to Rhino walls or Cultist taxes. I believe those 3 options are about all we've got. I really wish we had the old berserkers and transport rules though.

I will also note that the rhinos make good inexpensive sources of blood tithe points, as well as being a decent delivery system and/or a LOS blocking + cover granting defensive system.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Another quick note I'd like to make is a spent a few hours today doing a bunch of math examining point value in relation to defensive durability (vs. lascannons, plasmaguns, bolters, autocannons, etc), and it's interesting to see that invisibility + shrouding behind intervening models can quadruple a unit's durability.

For example it would take on average 11.25 autocannon shots to kill a gliding bloodthirster. Give the thirster invisibility and keep him near Belakor while he casts shrouding behind some intervening models, and it now takes 180 autocannon shots to kill him.

Taking belakor if you intend to run large death stars is certainly something to consider. However I think just going regular juggerlords with hounds, bloodletters, maulerfiends, heldrakes, etc might be more consistent and less detrimental to the luck of the die.

Something we could also fool with is summon spamming. Allying with daemons and spamming bloodletters to fill our battlefield up might be a cool idea. A more fluffy way to do this is to use an unmarked Chaos Sorcerer. But these ideas have been proposed before somewhere else I'm sure.

Thanks for the feedback

Speaking of sorcerors. It dawned on me that a sorceror rolling sanctic, getting hammerhand would be Really nice on a unit of hounds.

Wow that would be khornetastic. Too bad about the primaris and sanctuary. However, a sanctic sorcerer might be feasible, I like it!

SKarbrand could be good for our footsloggin army. He would give a nice buff to all our units

I really wish I could believe that were true.

It is when used right. Have him stay back , and give out buffs for the units about to charge. He gives hatred and rage, correct? That is something we can get with out using the blood tithe table.

 Eldarain wrote:
I sent them an email when the book was released.

Hi There


As it stands our Imperial armour books, miniatures and their rules held within these supplements are not designed to be used alongside other supplement books such as the Daemonkin supplement or Tempestus Scions supplement by Games Workshop. They are designed to be an individual supplement for your chosen force’s main codex.

At the moment there is no firm “ruling” or “Do’s and Don’ts” but we at Forge World encourage the use of “house rules” so if you ask your opponents for permission to use Forge World miniatures in your Daemonkin Army and they are okay with it then boom! Got ya’ self some awesome Daemon force to be reckoned with.

Other than that I would recommend keeping your retinals scanners on the Forge World Newsletters and downloads section of www.forgeworld.co.uk for more updates and everything shiny in the Forge World Range

I hope this helps and if you need anything further please give us a call.

Except that Deamonkin is a full fledged codex and not a Supplement, fether of a moron FW mail dude...

 Ignatius wrote:
I disagree about Bloodletters being the only thing to Deep Strike. Roughly half of my army in the next tournament I am playing in will be Deep Striking.

I'll let y'all know how it goes.

I am very interested to see the results. Please post a batrep.

Has anyone tried a bloodthrone. I was considering which hq to bring with a charnel cohort, but the daemon prince is too expensive with the points I have left. I don't have a good place to deliver skulltaker. I can take the normal herald on juggernaut, but I thought having another fast element that can do decent damage and buff nearby squads is good. It isn't super durable, but it is really fast.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I sent them an email when the book was released.

Hi There


As it stands our Imperial armour books, miniatures and their rules held within these supplements are not designed to be used alongside other supplement books such as the Daemonkin supplement or Tempestus Scions supplement by Games Workshop. They are designed to be an individual supplement for your chosen force’s main codex.

At the moment there is no firm “ruling” or “Do’s and Don’ts” but we at Forge World encourage the use of “house rules” so if you ask your opponents for permission to use Forge World miniatures in your Daemonkin Army and they are okay with it then boom! Got ya’ self some awesome Daemon force to be reckoned with.

Other than that I would recommend keeping your retinals scanners on the Forge World Newsletters and downloads section of www.forgeworld.co.uk for more updates and everything shiny in the Forge World Range

I hope this helps and if you need anything further please give us a call.

Except that Deamonkin is a full fledged codex and not a Supplement, fether of a moron FW mail dude...

I don't have the codex in front of me but I seem to remember that on the back cover it says it is a supplement to Warhammer 40k. Not sure if that would make a difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone used a Lanraider and had success with it for the Daemonkin? I really want to put my bezerkers with a herald that has the hatred locus.

Soss wrote:
I don't have the codex in front of me but I seem to remember that on the back cover it says it is a supplement to Warhammer 40k. Not sure if that would make a difference.

all the codexs say that

Another interesting thought I've had:

Ally in a sorcerer/lord on a bike/juggernaut. Give that character the Burning Brand of Skalathrax + whatever else. Slap him with some dogs and scout up the field! Now you can unleash your brand for a turn 1 torrent. See ya Eldar jetbikes/Tau Crisis suits. You can also break him apart turn 2 so your dogs can charge a different unit.

I think this might be a very effect and potentially inexpensive strategy! Is this viable? If so, how should you upgrade the Burning brand character? Sorcerer or Chaos Lord?

mixing in a sorceror on a bike is tempting. The brand would be icing on the cake. Its not Thaat good. Anything with a 3+ save worth killing will probably be protected.