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Some more rumors went up from that Blogspot site. Same Source.

If accurate, Templars are being removed from the dex to be added later and will still be able to use the 6th SM dex (I believe that is what is being stated) until the new dex hits.

So that's something.

Don't know if this was noted earlier but:

via Steve the Warboss on Faeit 212
The new Codex Space Marines comes with some Chapter-specific Boxed Sets.

-Ultramarines Sternguard Squad
-Raven Guard Assault Squad
-White Scars Bike Squad
-Salamanders Devastator Squad

So are IF getting the boot from the book too? Surely that dev box should be ours

 pretre wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
A flawed idea, as all the loyalist chapters are descended from the 9 loyalist legions.

Blood Ravens?

I believe they were derived from the genes of the cast of Ocean's Eleven, for their penchant to steal everything.

 Azreal13 wrote:
A flawed idea, as all the loyalist chapters are descended from the 9 loyalist legions.

Not strictly true; there's some hints that certain Loyalist chapters are actually descended from loyal members of the Traitor legions, or were founded using leftover gene-seed from the Traitor Legions that was kept on Mars/Terra. Some particular examples include:

-Blood Ravens: unknown, but a few hints that they may be Thousand Sons descendants
-Silver Skulls: possibly descended from loyal Iron Warriors, particularly given the chapter culture's "deviation" from that of their supposed primogenitors, the Ultramarines
-Carcharadons: possibly Night Lords descendants, though this one is very shaky; definitely "unknown" primogenitor status, though
-Minotaurs: might be World Eaters descendants, but again, all records are either nonexistent, expunged, or otherwise sealed
-Red Scorpions: might be Emperor's Children descendants. They claim that their geneseed is the purest, and it just so happens that the Emperor's Children had the purest geneseed...

So, yeah. Definitely some odd happenings, and quite a few chapters that have unknown founders that may in fact be Traitor derived. Personally I think that's pretty cool, that there are a few loyalist chapters that have a heritage with the Traitor Legions, because it does bring up the fact that not everybody wanted to go along with the Heresy in the Traitor Legions (though most were killed in the virus bombings of Istvaan III).

Heck, it makes good business sense to me. Separate all the first founding chapters into separate codices?

Already doing it with Dark Angels, might as well do it for the Imperial Fists, Black Templars, White Scars, Iron Hands...

I would definitely pick up a Salamanders codex if it meant more cool stuff and special rules for them as well.

*Insert Chaos Legions rant*

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
A flawed idea, as all the loyalist chapters are descended from the 9 loyalist legions.

Not strictly true; there's some hints that certain Loyalist chapters are actually descended from loyal members of the Traitor legions, or were founded using leftover gene-seed from the Traitor Legions that was kept on Mars/Terra. Some particular examples include:

-Blood Ravens: unknown, but a few hints that they may be Thousand Sons descendants
-Silver Skulls: possibly descended from loyal Iron Warriors, particularly given the chapter culture's "deviation" from that of their supposed primogenitors, the Ultramarines
-Carcharadons: possibly Night Lords descendants, though this one is very shaky; definitely "unknown" primogenitor status, though
-Minotaurs: might be World Eaters descendants, but again, all records are either nonexistent, expunged, or otherwise sealed
-Red Scorpions: might be Emperor's Children descendants. They claim that their geneseed is the purest, and it just so happens that the Emperor's Children had the purest geneseed...

So, yeah. Definitely some odd happenings, and quite a few chapters that have unknown founders that may in fact be Traitor derived. Personally I think that's pretty cool, that there are a few loyalist chapters that have a heritage with the Traitor Legions, because it does bring up the fact that not everybody wanted to go along with the Heresy in the Traitor Legions (though most were killed in the virus bombings of Istvaan III).

But, regardless of what might be, I'm seeing lots of maybes and mights, the fact remains that all chapters that have an established primogenitor are derived from loyalist chapters. GW aren't going to somehow break that vagueness just to justify a Codex as suggested by the post I posted that in response to.

And again, that's not strictly true; the Silver Skulls are established as having the Ultramarines as their primogenitors, but there's enough hints dropped to say "they're not actually UM descendants".

Ok, fine, I'll look out for Codex: Silver Skulls And Other Chapters That Possibly Are Descended From Traitor Remnants in lieu of the regular Codex: Space Marines sometime in the future.

These rumours sound like the failed rumours from the last book. Increased command squad size, terminator command squads back(and without a vanilla kit, if the rumours are true?) three levels of librarians? Sounds like someone opened a 3rd/4th edition codex and started pointing at things.

EDIT: and an iron hands character, rumored just like last time...

Whiskey144 wrote:

-Carcharadons: possibly Night Lords descendants, though this one is very shaky; definitely "unknown" primogenitor status, though

Carcharadon Astra is descended from Pre-Corax elements of the Raven Guard banished to the borders of the Imperium space by the Primach before the Heresy per FW Horus Heresy book 3 - Extermination. There was never any indication of them being Night Lords. Even the original retro-con in Imperial Armor - Badab War, only ever mentions Raven Guard. It's a done deal. Pre-heresy RG even had the same color scheme and bore the same tribal iconography.

Where in the hell did anyone ever get the idea that Silver Skulls could be Iron Warrior descendants?Just because of the icon?

They are UM successors. But over the eons some of their history was lost so now in M40 they aren't 100% sure. That's all it is. Seriously, Sarah Cawkwell chatted with us on B&C. They are first(second) founding successors of the UM. One of the most storied and successful chapters there is. ( that isn'ta legion)

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
A flawed idea, as all the loyalist chapters are descended from the 9 loyalist legions.

Not strictly true; there's some hints that certain Loyalist chapters are actually descended from loyal members of the Traitor legions, or were founded using leftover gene-seed from the Traitor Legions that was kept on Mars/Terra. Some particular examples include:

-Blood Ravens: unknown, but a few hints that they may be Thousand Sons descendants
-Silver Skulls: possibly descended from loyal Iron Warriors, particularly given the chapter culture's "deviation" from that of their supposed primogenitors, the Ultramarines
-Carcharadons: possibly Night Lords descendants, though this one is very shaky; definitely "unknown" primogenitor status, though
-Minotaurs: might be World Eaters descendants, but again, all records are either nonexistent, expunged, or otherwise sealed
-Red Scorpions: might be Emperor's Children descendants. They claim that their geneseed is the purest, and it just so happens that the Emperor's Children had the purest geneseed...

So, yeah. Definitely some odd happenings, and quite a few chapters that have unknown founders that may in fact be Traitor derived. Personally I think that's pretty cool, that there are a few loyalist chapters that have a heritage with the Traitor Legions, because it does bring up the fact that not everybody wanted to go along with the Heresy in the Traitor Legions (though most were killed in the virus bombings of Istvaan III).

Erh.. I'm pretty sure it's stated that the Carcharadons are descended from Raven Guard, especially since their skin is pale and their eyes are black.
Red Scorpions never had any records ever stating that they were descended from any traitor legion and IIRC there's historical records that indicates Red Scorpions as a loyalist founded chapter as early as 33 MK.
Also, why would Minotuars be World Eaters descendants? Because they favor melee combat? I'm not strong on the fluff on Minotaurs but if that's the reason then the Blood Angels would honestly make for much better candidates, especially if you removed the part with Sanguinius and replaced everything blood related and replaced it with 'Khorne'.

What about the Rainbow Warriors?

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
A flawed idea, as all the loyalist chapters are descended from the 9 loyalist legions.

Not strictly true; there's some hints that certain Loyalist chapters are actually descended from loyal members of the Traitor legions, or were founded using leftover gene-seed from the Traitor Legions that was kept on Mars/Terra. Some particular examples include:

-Blood Ravens: unknown, but a few hints that they may be Thousand Sons descendants
-Silver Skulls: possibly descended from loyal Iron Warriors, particularly given the chapter culture's "deviation" from that of their supposed primogenitors, the Ultramarines
-Carcharadons: possibly Night Lords descendants, though this one is very shaky; definitely "unknown" primogenitor status, though
-Minotaurs: might be World Eaters descendants, but again, all records are either nonexistent, expunged, or otherwise sealed
-Red Scorpions: might be Emperor's Children descendants. They claim that their geneseed is the purest, and it just so happens that the Emperor's Children had the purest geneseed...

So, yeah. Definitely some odd happenings, and quite a few chapters that have unknown founders that may in fact be Traitor derived. Personally I think that's pretty cool, that there are a few loyalist chapters that have a heritage with the Traitor Legions, because it does bring up the fact that not everybody wanted to go along with the Heresy in the Traitor Legions (though most were killed in the virus bombings of Istvaan III).

Except that...you know all of the Geneseeds of the traitoris is either locked up in a bunker somewhere on Mars or was destroyed...

Even nowa days 80% of new Chapters are made by using Guilliman geneseed because its the purest and most viable of the lot of the Loyalist, since all the others have some flaws in some kind or have mutations and are kept secret in others (BA, SW etc).

So using even more flawed and corrupted geneseed is simply dumb, and all of this is just feul for the Thinfoil hat people crazy theories.

Well actually DA seem to have the most stable seed... Political reasons prevent the seed from being used, though.
For no reason at all.
Since we're loyal.
And hide nothing.
Not like anyone here tripped and fell...
Totally.

 Azreal13 wrote:
A flawed idea, as all the loyalist chapters are descended from the 9 loyalist legions.

What does that even matter in terms of codex releases?

Apart from the Grey Knights (who already have their own codex), all SM chapters are successors of one of the original 9. That changes nothing in my idea.

Each book should cover one of the original 9 AND their successors.

Codex DA for example would cover the DA and all the chapters that descended from them.
Codex: Imperial Fists would cover the IF as well as Black Templars, Crimson Fists, and so on...

As a customer, I would love to see it. If they can make a game edition that lasts long enough to cover all the releases I would happily purchase a book for all the armies I play. Good business move for GW - Good set of options for players. Everybody wins.

 En Excelsis wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
A flawed idea, as all the loyalist chapters are descended from the 9 loyalist legions.

What does that even matter in terms of codex releases?

Apart from the Grey Knights (who already have their own codex), all SM chapters are successors of one of the original 9. That changes nothing in my idea.

Each book should cover one of the original 9 AND their successors.

Codex DA for example would cover the DA and all the chapters that descended from them.
Codex: Imperial Fists would cover the IF as well as Black Templars, Crimson Fists, and so on...

As a customer, I would love to see it. If they can make a game edition that lasts long enough to cover all the releases I would happily purchase a book for all the armies I play. Good business move for GW - Good set of options for players. Everybody wins.

I would love to see this but not as full codices, I really miss the days of 3rd ed where we had thin soft covered books that made codices so much better. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Craftworld Eldar, all of these made the original books much better with a much lower corporate investment and player cost. Yeah I would like to see codex imperial fists, but I also wanna see codex biel tan and codex behemoth and codex blood axe. GW needs to bring back the age of the softcover add on.

Because your opening paragraph..

 En Excelsis wrote:
I know it will never happen, but I'd like to see the new Adeptus Astartes codex ONLY represent chapters that are 'custom' and not part of one of the 9 original chapters featured. Not only would it put a greater emphasis on creating your own narrative, but it would allow each of the other chapters to have their own codices.

Is saying that you'd like to see a book that features Chapters that aren't part of one of the loyalist Legions, and my point was that would be a short book because, small dose of subsequent internet pedantry aside, all chapters are successors to one of those Legions, custom or not.

I think your idea of having a book for each Legion/Chapter is exactly how the supplement system should have worked, with a core Astartes book and an add on for each, but clearly GW can't be arsed and would much rather fanny about doing a half baked version of a handful of them.

 notprop wrote:
What about the Rainbow Warriors?

They came out of the closet. They are Dark Angel decendents

And I thought Red Scorpions were Iron Hands Decendents.

 carabine wrote:

 En Excelsis wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
A flawed idea, as all the loyalist chapters are descended from the 9 loyalist legions.

What does that even matter in terms of codex releases?

Apart from the Grey Knights (who already have their own codex), all SM chapters are successors of one of the original 9. That changes nothing in my idea.

Each book should cover one of the original 9 AND their successors.

Codex DA for example would cover the DA and all the chapters that descended from them.
Codex: Imperial Fists would cover the IF as well as Black Templars, Crimson Fists, and so on...

As a customer, I would love to see it. If they can make a game edition that lasts long enough to cover all the releases I would happily purchase a book for all the armies I play. Good business move for GW - Good set of options for players. Everybody wins.

I would love to see this but not as full codices, I really miss the days of 3rd ed where we had thin soft covered books that made codices so much better. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Craftworld Eldar, all of these made the original books much better with a much lower corporate investment and player cost. Yeah I would like to see codex imperial fists, but I also wanna see codex biel tan and codex behemoth and codex blood axe. GW needs to bring back the age of the softcover add on.

Mmm... I really enjoy most of the factions in the game. I primarily play Eldar, but I've invested significantly in SM of various chapter, CSM, and even a little bit of orks/tyranids. I've really run that gamut of armies. All of them are fun in their own way and offer interesting an unique approaches to the tabletop experience. I can honestly say that each army I play has a distinctly unique approach to playing that justifies the investment - both in my personal time and the monetary value of the materials. After all, if playing Dark Angels - for example - was not worth the money, I would not buy the book. But it is worth it: Dark Angels are different enough from other chapters that they genuinely need their own book to explain all the differences in their available play style.

This really isn't true of most other factions. I'm not hating - just pointing out a fact. Each SM chapter has enough background lore and history detailing such different tactics that they could easily fill a book with special rules. The fact that some factions do get books (like BA, DA, etc) and some don't (IF, BT, IH, WS, etc) is just a disservice to the later chapters. All of them are varied enough to deserve it. (assuming of course that there are enough people playing that faction to merit selling books to them). Other factions like the various tribes of orks, or hive fleets of 'nids are just not different enough in background and lore to merit different rule sets. Does Kraken have noticeably different battlefield tactics than Leviethan? Do they have different critters? Different abilities? If so, its not readily visible to me as a player... If that were to change I could see each factions getting supplement, but until it does, there isn't a reason.

The same is true of the other factions... even the Eldar. While most of the craftworlds have wildly different motivations, the overall "way of war" that applies to the Eldar is centralized by their worship of Khaine and his individual shrines. All the little differences are differences of character, not of anything else. Biel-Tan isn't using anything in war that Ulthwe is not. There are not enough units or special rules from craftworld to craftworld to justify individual books.

IMO, the only factions that need more than one codex are the SM and the CSM - each of their respective factions should have its own units and rules, and should presented in their own books. After all, they really are the stars of the 40k show.

 En Excelsis wrote:


IMO, the only factions that need more than one codex are the SM and the CSM - each of their respective factions should have its own units and rules, and should presented in their own books. After all, they really are the stars of the 40k show.

The Imperial Guard would like to have a word with you on that front.

They actually have, at present, the most diversity of any army in the game in terms of "codexes"

Death Korps: Assault Brigade + Siege Regiment
Elysians: Drop Troops + D-99
Basic IG Codex

And Catachans used to have their own book, and the 4th edition Regiment Builder is the origin for the FW lists (in fact, many of their special rules are exact replicas of those now-gone options).

What we need, and this is for most codexes is not multiple books but proper customization options as existed in 3.5/4 CSM, SM, IG, Orks, Eldar, they all used to have wonderful, if not especially well designed options in the core book. They weren't very internally balanced, but the idea was sound, and wonderful for fluffy builds.

Forgot Tempestus Scions.

And AdMech in some way is just a heavely cybernetic and mecanized IG.

 En Excelsis wrote:
Other factions like the various tribes of orks, or hive fleets of 'nids are just not different enough in background and lore to merit different rule sets.

Ork speed freaks would like to have a word with you...

Also the Imperial Guard regiments are certainly worthy of that level of differentiation, never mind traitor guard, who currently aren't even really represented, other than by sticking spikes on your Cadians.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Forgot Tempestus Scions.

And AdMech in some way is just a heavely cybernetic and mecanized IG.

I think you mean that IG are just squishier, underequipped AdMech...

I think most of the factions deserve some analog of "chapter tactics". Even Orks Speedfreeks, Blood Axes and Deathskulls can do war very different. Even in my DA codex there are Disciples of Caliban that can diffirient from main chapter.

IG has Cadian, Valhallian, Catachan, Vostroya and Krieg regiments that can be realy different. Eldar craftworlds, Dark Eldars cabals, adMech forgeworlds, Tyranids hivefleets, Tau anclaves, CSM legions. Daemons somehow have distinct differensec between gods allready, but can have some bonuses for monogod armies I think.

P.S. And I'm really frustrated that my DA codex got bypassed in udates que again...

 Reinokarite wrote:
I think most of the factions deserve some analog of "chapter tactics". Even Orks Speedfreeks, Blood Axes and Deathskulls can do war very different. Even in my DA codex there are Disciples of Caliban that can diffirient from main chapter.

IG has Cadian, Valhallian, Catachan, Vostroya and Krieg regiments that can be realy different. Eldar craftworlds, Dark Eldars cabals, adMech forgeworlds, Tyranids hivefleets, Tau anclaves, CSM legions. Daemons somehow have distinct differensec between gods allready, but can have some bonuses for monogod armies I think.

P.S. And I'm really frustrated that my DA codex got bypassed in udates que again...

Well, coming after the main Astartes book this time DA can be Vanilla Marines stuff +1 like Blood Angels, instead of Vanilla Marines 0.5 beta version. Therefore no whining (brooding) allowed.

 Theophony wrote:

 notprop wrote:
What about the Rainbow Warriors?

They came out of the closet. They are Dark Angel decendents

And I thought Red Scorpions were Iron Hands Decendents.

That's what the Alpha Legion wants you to think...

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Reinokarite wrote:
I think most of the factions deserve some analog of "chapter tactics". Even Orks Speedfreeks, Blood Axes and Deathskulls can do war very different. Even in my DA codex there are Disciples of Caliban that can diffirient from main chapter.

IG has Cadian, Valhallian, Catachan, Vostroya and Krieg regiments that can be realy different. Eldar craftworlds, Dark Eldars cabals, adMech forgeworlds, Tyranids hivefleets, Tau anclaves, CSM legions. Daemons somehow have distinct differensec between gods allready, but can have some bonuses for monogod armies I think.

P.S. And I'm really frustrated that my DA codex got bypassed in udates que again...

Well, coming after the main Astartes book this time DA can be Vanilla Marines stuff +1 like Blood Angels, instead of Vanilla Marines 0.5 beta version. Therefore no whining (brooding) allowed.

Wouldn't count on it. After all DA's are "slow to adapt new tech" and with the slew of special models we have (Black Knights, DW Knights, LS Vengeance (lol) and the Flyers (doublelol)) that puts us with 6 units that SM don't have - so I expect to have 6 units "cut" from the SM arsenal to balance the scales. Because reasons.

 En Excelsis wrote:
Each book should cover one of the original 9 AND their successors.

Codex DA for example would cover the DA and all the chapters that descended from them.
Codex: Imperial Fists would cover the IF as well as Black Templars, Crimson Fists, and so on...

Unless GW was going to commit to doing a codex for every loyalist and traitor legion just for the hell of it (and some of those codexes would be huge and others would be redundant) I have to say this doesn't make a lick of sense, for the loyalists especially.

Most of the loyalist chapters, even the first founding chapters, have very little deviation from the codex astartes - but some of their descendants do deviate a great deal. Imperial Fists are the poster children for why you wouldn't want to publish codexes this way. The Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists adhere very strictly to the codex astartes, while the Black Templars deviate more than probably any other chapter. Imperial/Crimson Fists are Ultramarines with slightly different special rules. Black Templars really need their own book.

I'll keep going: Raven Guard are codex compliant with an emphasis on stealth and infiltration; meanwhile the Carcharodons equip their tactical squads with chainswords and excel at brutal close combat.

White Scars are codex compliant with an emphasis on mounted warfare; meanwhile the Mantis Warriors specialize in guerrilla warfare.

Salamanders are codex compliant with an emphasis on artisan armor and weaponry; meanwhile the Storm Giants (rumored Salamanders descendants) are about as bog-standard as they come.

Not to mention all the chapters whose original founding is unknown.

It's a nonsensical way of organizing things - the vast majority of the chapters out there can be handled by a single core codex plus a few unique rules, and that includes most of the first founding chapters. Meanwhile their descendants, when they have them, many times have nothing in common with their parent chapter (or have no known parent chapter at all - where would you lump them?) and may need totally unrelated unique rules. And then the Black Templars, one of the few chapters out there so unique that surely they need their own book, have to share a book with the Imperial Fists, who differ only slightly from your average codex-compliant chapter.