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I don't get it.

- Why would sergeants get W2? This is not something common to squad leaders, and you pay nothing extra in points for the sergeant (the same 14/17 points as everyone else).

- Melee weapons aren't overcosted; 7e is just more range-centric. I think SM melee weapons are cost average-ish. You're better off leaving melee weapons as they are, and perhaps 8e will swing the pendulum in the direction of cc. Though scientifically, cc weapons 40,000 years in the future on a battlefield with hovertanks and flying units is a head-scratcher anyhow.

- We don't know what CTs there are and special stuff that gives them better buffage.

- No drop pods to ASM stings, but who plays vanilla marines and takes ASM in the first place, not to mention ASM on drop pods, so what does it matter? If you want good ASM take blood angels.

My off-the-top guess is that Space marines will come out more powerful than they were before, because of Gladius detachment and chapter tactics. And really, they don't need to be more powerful.


Personally, my #1 request would be buffing Terminators, since these are an iconic unit, they are fun to paint, and horrible to play.

 Talys wrote:
I don't get it.

- Why would sergeants get W2? This is not something common to squad leaders, and you pay nothing extra in points for the sergeant (the same 14/17 points as everyone else).

Because when one captain dies, the most veteran sergeant in the company takes his place and suddenly triples his wound count overnight? I can see the justification for keeping normal sergeants at 1 W while bumping up vets to 2W at the appropriate cost.

 warboss wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
-no 2 wound sergeant
-no fixing of overcosted veteran upgrade
-no fixing of overcosted melee weapons
-no price drop for overcosted marines
-nerf in the form of no more discounted transports
-no fixing of pistol prices

Yep, GW is still terrible at rules.
Why do we follow the official rules again? We should just kickstarter zagman up some printed books for his errata and switch.

Have you gotten the codex early or are you extrapolating the entire book from the assault and dev entries?

I'm looking for a book like the crons and eldar, not in the sense of being OP, but by every unit being reasonably good and playable. Right off the bat, we have the asm rules already confirming that that ain't happening. I never said anything about the parts of the book we haven't seen yet, so I'm not sure why you think I have.

 warboss wrote:
Because when one captain dies, the most veteran sergeant in the company takes his place and suddenly triples his wound count overnight?

But that is the same for every army. It is like this for Sisters, I guess it is the same for guard, tau, …

Bumping the sergeant to a Veteran Sergeant should give them W2, IMHO.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Because when one captain dies, the most veteran sergeant in the company takes his place and suddenly triples his wound count overnight?

But that is the same for every army. It is like this for Sisters, I guess it is the same for guard, tau, …

Except that "sergeant" equivalents (exarchs) in the Eldar codex just got 2 wounds so definitely not every army. It's a possiblity but I fully admit that it is not a probability. In this case, I just happen to think that the buff would actually both mesh with the fluff and not be overpowering either as long as they're not handing out eternal warrior like candy along with it.

Autarchs are no better at combat than Aspect Warriors, and nowhere close to Exarch levels. But Autarchs have better stats than Exarchs.

And a Vindicare Assassin is better at swordplay (WS) than Jain freaking Zar.

Sure, it seems odd that a vet sarge goes from 1 to 3 HP overnight, but 3W on an HQ is more about plot armor than fluff. And a lot of stats don't match the fluff.

(Sarges and Exarchs are very, very different roles.)

 kronk wrote:
Bumping the sergeant to a Veteran Sergeant should give them W2, IMHO.

Yup, I said that above. It would give you a tangible reason to upgrade beyond +1 A/LD.

 kronk wrote:
Bumping the sergeant to a Veteran Sergeant should give them W2, IMHO.

Except never in the history of 40K have veteran sergeants had 2 W, unlike Exarchs.

Nocturnus wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Bumping the sergeant to a Veteran Sergeant should give them W2, IMHO.

Except never in the history of 40K have veteran sergeants had 2 W, unlike Exarchs.

My 30k FW HH books say otherwise.

 warboss wrote:
Because when one captain dies, the most veteran sergeant in the company takes his place and suddenly triples his wound count overnight? I can see the justification for keeping normal sergeants at 1 W while bumping up vets to 2W at the appropriate cost.

Sweet! I like this. It should actually be, every time a member of a squad dies, the rest get harder to kill

Bharring wrote:
Autarchs are no better at combat than Aspect Warriors, and nowhere close to Exarch levels. But Autarchs have better stats than Exarchs.

And a Vindicare Assassin is better at swordplay (WS) than Jain freaking Zar.

Sure, it seems odd that a vet sarge goes from 1 to 3 HP overnight, but 3W on an HQ is more about plot armor than fluff. And a lot of stats don't match the fluff.

(Sarges and Exarchs are very, very different roles.)

If you've read any Black Library novels, you'd see that plenty of veteran sergeants have improved artificer plot armor as well. In any case, there is nothing in between the scout's 1 Wound and the Captain's 3 wounds in the normal marine hierarchy (without obviously diverting to auxillary roles like chaplains and librarians). This quick fix solves that issue (assuming you think one exists). It's a matter of opinion and as such GW doesn't give a rat's ass about it since they don't want our opinions. They'll do whatever they want ala Eric Cartmann regardless and the literal (chinese cargo) ship has long sailed so we'll find out in a few weeks if any of the squads get that bump. Even if it was just a veteran squad sergeant upgrade, I'd be fine with that.

 Talys wrote:
I don't get it.

- Why would sergeants get W2? This is not something common to squad leaders, and you pay nothing extra in points for the sergeant (the same 14/17 points as everyone else).

- Melee weapons aren't overcosted; 7e is just more range-centric. I think SM melee weapons are cost average-ish. You're better off leaving melee weapons as they are, and perhaps 8e will swing the pendulum in the direction of cc. Though scientifically, cc weapons 40,000 years in the future on a battlefield with hovertanks and flying units is a head-scratcher anyhow.

- We don't know what CTs there are and special stuff that gives them better buffage.

- No drop pods to ASM stings, but who plays vanilla marines and takes ASM in the first place, not to mention ASM on drop pods, so what does it matter? If you want good ASM take blood angels.

My off-the-top guess is that Space marines will come out more powerful than they were before, because of Gladius detachment and chapter tactics. And really, they don't need to be more powerful.


Personally, my #1 request would be buffing Terminators, since these are an iconic unit, they are fun to paint, and horrible to play.

Exarchs, crypteks, lords, etc. there was a speculation theory that the sarges, at least the veterans, might go up to 2w, which would be pretty reasonable.

Melee weapons ARE overcosted. 15 for 2 s7ap2 shots at reasonable range, or 15 for 2 s4ap3 melee swings at 0" range that needs at least 2 turns before it can get used, 3 against an opponent actively avoiding it.

Yes we don't know the formations yet, which is why I haven't commented on them. My comments are based on what's on the paper right now. I'm not a fan of formations. I won't necessarily be happy if they become awesome just because of some OP formation bonus.

"Who plays vanilla marines and takes ASM in the first place?" Exactly. I want a unit to be a decent playable option, and you agree that it currently isn't.

"And really, they don't need to be more powerful." Errrr, speaking from the competitive scene, they need everything except a few all-stars to be buffed actually. Cents, masses of pods, sicarans, TFC's, shield eternal, and bikers are what is holding the 6e book up right now. I would be in love with the new book if that stuff dropped a bit and everything else got raised to reasonable levels. 14 points for the base marine is no longer passable in the current game unless they are mass podding.

If you're speaking from non-competitive games, well, that's different for everyone.

 kronk wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Bumping the sergeant to a Veteran Sergeant should give them W2, IMHO.

Except never in the history of 40K have veteran sergeants had 2 W, unlike Exarchs.

My 30k FW HH books say otherwise.

Is that a thing for all veteran sergeants? Wow, I totally missed that from my online thread perusals. I knew certain units were two wounds like GK Paladins (gal vorbak, red butchers, and fire drakes) but didn't realize it was true for other squad sergeants. FW gets it right yet again...

 warboss wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Bumping the sergeant to a Veteran Sergeant should give them W2, IMHO.

Except never in the history of 40K have veteran sergeants had 2 W, unlike Exarchs.

My 30k FW HH books say otherwise.

Is that a thing for all veteran sergeants? Wow, I totally missed that from my online thread perusals. I knew certain units were two wounds like GK Paladins (gal vorbak, red butchers, and fire drakes) but didn't realize it was true for other squad sergeants. FW gets it right yet again...

Not all, no. Just a few squads like the Templar Brethren, sadly. They all should have them.

 warboss wrote:
Except that "sergeant" equivalents (exarchs) in the Eldar codex just got 2 wounds so definitely not every army.

Exarch are pretty special, with lots of extra rules.
I mean, sure, we could give 2 wounds to veteran sergeant, but that would involve more wound tracking for little extra in term of gameplay.

 Talys wrote:

Vyxen wrote:
Since someone asked the question, the reason I'm buying a Limited Edition codex is because someone ELSE would really like it, and it would make THEM happy. How's that for an answer!

You know, this is actually the best reason to buy a Limited Edition book that I've seen so far Nice present... Lucky guy!

Shows my limited imagination, agreed that is the best reason for getting the LE codex.

I like it, it actually makes sense, 2 wound sarges should be a thing.

 kronk wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Bumping the sergeant to a Veteran Sergeant should give them W2, IMHO.

Except never in the history of 40K have veteran sergeants had 2 W, unlike Exarchs.

My 30k FW HH books say otherwise.

30K.... Everything was better back then, And it's not all vet sgts. Good try though.

Assault Marines aren't getting new rules in the new Codex because of the rules bump jump packs will be getting in 8th edition 40K later this summer.

niv-mizzet wrote:
-no 2 wound sergeant
-no fixing of overcosted veteran upgrade
-no fixing of overcosted melee weapons
-no price drop for overcosted marines
-nerf in the form of no more discounted transports
-no fixing of pistol prices

Yep, GW is still terrible at rules.
Why do we follow the official rules again? We should just kickstarter zagman up some printed books for his errata and switch.

The veteran sergent upgrade is game wide. Almost everyone pays 10 points for a chump with +1 attack.
The melee weapons cost is game wide. Why would you spend 25 points giving a chump a chainfist he probably will never use?
The pistol prices are again a game wide issue. You know DE love paying 15 points for their blast pistol with it's uber 6" range. Guard pay 15points for a plasma pistol all the same, but are BS3.

They should update that with an edition change, rather than fix it in only C:SM making them better than everyone else.

Marines though, are not overcosted. 14point 4s across the board, 2 types of grenades, ATSKNF and great special rules(CT). Marines are versitle, you pay for that. If all you want to do with them is sit them behind cover and hold heavy weapons, yes they will seem expensive.

 pretre wrote:
What about complaining about complaining about complaining?

I wasn't complaining though, I was asking a question in a way that pointed out a hypocrisy. Hashtag semantics are fun

The "sergeant" counterparts in the Necrons codex (lords) also have two wounds, right? And so do the Skitarii ones.

I think this is going to be GW's policy henceforward and I exoect to see 2W Space Marines sergeanrs.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 pretre wrote:
What about complaining about complaining about complaining?

I wasn't complaining though, I was asking a question in a way that pointed out a hypocrisy. Hashtag semantics are fun

I wasn't saying you were complaining. I was asking a question in a way that pointed out hypocrisy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:
The "sergeant" counterparts in the Necrons codex (lords) also have two wounds, right? And so do the Skitarii ones.

I think this is going to be GW's policy henceforward and I exoect to see 2W Space Marines sergeanrs.

Except that was already shown not to be the case with the assault sergeants.

Alcibiades wrote:
The "sergeant" counterparts in the Necrons codex (lords) also have two wounds, right? And so do the Skitarii ones.

I think this is going to be GW's policy henceforward and I exoect to see 2W Space Marines sergeanrs.

Lords are an HQ choice, in the last edition they were basically Sergeants (didn't take a FOC slot and couldn't leave the unit they attached to) but only had 1 wound. Now they're budget HQs, like Captain lite.

Melee weapons cost more because i can't shoot my plasma guns in your shooting phase. I can swing a powerfist in your assault phase however.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Talys wrote:

Vyxen wrote:
Since someone asked the question, the reason I'm buying a Limited Edition codex is because someone ELSE would really like it, and it would make THEM happy. How's that for an answer!

You know, this is actually the best reason to buy a Limited Edition book that I've seen so far Nice present... Lucky guy!

Shows my limited imagination, agreed that is the best reason for getting the LE codex.

Unless the full story is that someone else would really like it, and as it would make them happy this poster is buying it purely so they won't get it!

 Azreal13 wrote:
Unless the full story is that someone else would really like it, and as it would make them happy this poster is buying it purely so they won't get it!

Wow, Az, my head hurts. I don't know what that means, hahaha.

So has there actually been any rules leaks this time around, or is it just the 6th ed marine codex with new coat of paint?

 Red Marine wrote:
Melee weapons cost more because i can't shoot my plasma guns in your shooting phase. I can swing a powerfist in your assault phase however.

You also aren't allowed to throw a Power Fist at someone, so yeah...