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 Talys wrote:

WindsOfFury wrote:
I was so happy with the Stalker unit Skystorm rule (ignoring cover = no jink)

On a AV 12 flyer it would on average deal 3,5 HP of damage if targeting one unit.
Now I read in the leaks that the Icarus got nerfed to Heavy 3! That is only 2,6 HP on average... Still a 0,8 % chance of killing it with one shot...

Well, at least we got Interceptor on in...

I have the printed, English codex. Icarus Stormcannon is a bit different. It looks like a nerf but it it's actually a buff.

Yes, it is now 48" S7 AP4 Heavy 3, Interceptor, Skyfire -- down from Heavy 4.

HOWEVER: Now, when firing at Dual Targets, you do so normally, instead of at BS2!! In my opinion, I would much rather have 2 x Heavy3 at BS 4, than, 2xHeavy 4 at BS2. (Servo Tracking is gone)

The single-target is unchanged -- they describe it as something different, but it's still effectively Twin Link. So yeah, it would have been better shooting at a single target with the old rules. But shooting normally at 2 targets is generally better than shooting Twin Link on 1 target.

And yeah, 3 gets you Ignore Cover.

At 210 points, it's probably one of the better tank squads

I also have 2 BNIB and one really old painted one!

Ohh, I forgot about the BS2 part in 6ed rules. Then I'm not all to sad about Going Heavy 3 instead of 4. Also, It makes a little sense. The model do have 3 barrels, not 4.

Well, maybe it will move up on my list of what I want to get...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So if the Raukaan supplement still works, and you roll the +1 FNP trait, and you're in a Command Squad with an Apothecary... that's a 3+ FNP. THAT is fitting for Iron Hands!

It gets worse.. IIRC Chains of the Gorgon also grants you +1 on your FNP rolls, as long as you have full wounds. So yeah, that's a potential of 2+ FNP. If that Iron Hands supplement is still valid, then we have a top contender for being THE immovable object in the game. I mean, the guy would become essentially immortal.

I kinda want to run a Demi-Company alongside one or two of the 10th Company Task Force. Put the scouts in LSS and do drivebys with the Heavy Flamer. Launch multiple Cerberus Launcher missiles and cause mayhem. Scout Bikes are better than plain SM bikes now(obviously not Gravbikes), but the grenade launcher isn't half bad.

So, having looked through it... I'm disappointed there's no Masters of the Chapter formation. That would have been nice. Oh well, I think they're still in Apocalypse.

 -Shrike- wrote:
So, having looked through it... I'm disappointed there's no Masters of the Chapter formation. That would have been nice. Oh well, I think they're still in Apocalypse.

With the move of a lot of Apoc things to normal 40k, I see your point. The Masters of the Chapter’s formation bonuses were very specific to the apoc rules though. What would you give them on the 40k scale?

<goes back to assembling his 7th captain>

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I kinda want to run a Demi-Company alongside one or two of the 10th Company Task Force. Put the scouts in LSS and do drivebys with the Heavy Flamer. Launch multiple Cerberus Launcher missiles and cause mayhem. Scout Bikes are better than plain SM bikes now(obviously not Gravbikes), but the grenade launcher isn't half bad.

Now that the LSS is BS4, the 10 point multi-melta isn't that rubish anymore, especially if Vulkan's wording didn't change and they benefit from the master crafted special rule. Furthermore, the LSS is also an assault vehicle, so giving the sergeant a combi-melta and a melta bomb (should the combi melta be insufficient) isn't a bad idea either!

Also, 10 scout bikes with 3+ jink (2+ if night fighting) before they move is only 180 points! Even better with WS CT! xD

 Zewrath wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I kinda want to run a Demi-Company alongside one or two of the 10th Company Task Force. Put the scouts in LSS and do drivebys with the Heavy Flamer. Launch multiple Cerberus Launcher missiles and cause mayhem. Scout Bikes are better than plain SM bikes now(obviously not Gravbikes), but the grenade launcher isn't half bad.

Now that the LSS is BS4, the 10 point multi-melta isn't that rubish anymore, especially if Vulkan's wording didn't change and they benefit from the master crafted special rule. Furthermore, the LSS is also an assault vehicle, so giving the sergeant a combi-melta and a melta bomb (should the combi melta be insufficient) isn't a bad idea either!

Also, 10 scout bikes with 3+ jink (2+ if night fighting) before they move is only 180 points! Even better with WS CT! xD

Wording on Vulcan is "all models in his detachment" are benefiting, so yes - it works.

 Nevelon wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:
So, having looked through it... I'm disappointed there's no Masters of the Chapter formation. That would have been nice. Oh well, I think they're still in Apocalypse.

With the move of a lot of Apoc things to normal 40k, I see your point. The Masters of the Chapter’s formation bonuses were very specific to the apoc rules though. What would you give them on the 40k scale?

<goes back to assembling his 7th captain>

I don't know, really. I mean, the original Apocalypse rules could have been tweaked and added in, but the newer rules are, as you say, a bit harder. To be fair, apart from the absolutely insane "Sons of..." (What? Double the attacks, and double the strength if I challenge someone as well? Why not? ), all it actually does is give them a 3++ for a turn, and some extra strategic assets. You could easily replace that with another Orbital Bombardment (or making the existing one larger), giving one unit one of scout/outflank/infiltrate, and giving another unit tank and monster hunters. I mean, it's hard to make it too powerful, given the points you've got to sink into it.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So... Everything in the Demi/Full company gets obsec, not just the tacticals.

My Drop List with 2 Demis has 26 Obsec Units, 12 of which are pods.

Could you post the list again? I'm intrigued.

Just a quick one:

Two Demi-Companies so both DC groups have Obsec, Tactical Doctrines, Free Transports

Demi Company 1
Captain - 90
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Assault Squad with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90
5 Dev Squad with 4 Grav, Cherub in Drop Pod with Locator Beacon - 225

Demi-Company 2
Chaplain - 90
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Assault Squad with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90
5 Dev Squad with 4 Grav, Cherub in Drop Pod with Locator Beacon - 225

1st Company Task Force (PE vs one unit at start of game, -2 Leadership for enemy if within 12" of 3 units)
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod

1845

one from MikhailLenin



I think he ended up swapping some grav on tacs around, but still.

 pretre wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So... Everything in the Demi/Full company gets obsec, not just the tacticals.

My Drop List with 2 Demis has 26 Obsec Units, 12 of which are pods.

Could you post the list again? I'm intrigued.

Just a quick one:

Two Demi-Companies so both DC groups have Obsec, Tactical Doctrines, Free Transports

Demi Company 1
Captain - 90
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Assault Squad with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90
5 Dev Squad with 4 Grav, Cherub in Drop Pod with Locator Beacon - 225

Demi-Company 2
Chaplain - 90
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Assault Squad with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90
5 Dev Squad with 4 Grav, Cherub in Drop Pod with Locator Beacon - 225

1st Company Task Force (PE vs one unit at start of game, -2 Leadership for enemy if within 12" of 3 units)
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod

1845

one from MikhailLenin

Spoiler:

New White Scars based on new SM Codex:

Gladius Strike Force Detachment - Gain Combat Doctrines

Battle Company (2 Demi Company Combined) Core - All Transport purchased are Free, but not their Upgrades. Additionally gain 2 Tactical Doctrines and all Models in it are Objective Secured.

Kor-Sarro Khan (Warlord - Grants Scout to all and 12" Reroll Morale Bubble)
Chaplain w/ Auspex
6x 5 Tactical Marines with 1 Grav Cannon/Amp in a Razorback with Lascannon / TL Plasma
2x 5 Assault Marines with 2 Flamers in a Razorback with Lascannon / TL Plasma
2x 5 Devastator Marines with 1 Grav Cannon/Amp in a Razorback with Lascannon / TL Plasma

Storm Wing Auxilliary - As long as 1 Stormtalon is alive, the Raven gains Strafing Run.

Stormraven with TL AssCan, TL MM
2x Stormtalon with TL AssCan, Skyhammer Missiles

Total Points 1850.

I think he ended up swapping some grav on tacs around, but still.

That one is actually somewhat frightening. Much better than some of the other lists I've seen floating around.

 docdoom77 wrote:

That one is actually somewhat frightening. Much better than some of the other lists I've seen floating around.

Which one? Mine or Mikhail's?

I really hate the back and forth of power levels as new Codex books are released. It sucks to have your army get a new Codex when GW is in a 'reining things in a bit' mood, then have to wait a couple years and hope it doesn't happen again, while Eldar happen to get consecutive books released when GW doesn't seem to care about balance at all.

Wait, so is there actually no way to get regular SM Bikers in a Gladius?

Requizen wrote:
Wait, so is there actually no way to get regular SM Bikers in a Gladius?

There are. You can take them instead of an assault squad.

 pretre wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

That one is actually somewhat frightening. Much better than some of the other lists I've seen floating around.

Which one? Mine or Mikhail's?

Had only read the top one. They're both pretty good. Not as many weaknesses as a lot of the "OMG FREE TRANSPORTS" threads.

Requizen wrote:
Wait, so is there actually no way to get regular SM Bikers in a Gladius?

You can replace the Assault Squad of the Demi-Company with Assault Bike or regular Bike Squads.

From what I understand that's the only spot where you can add regular Bike Squads, though.

 pretre wrote:
Just a quick one:

Two Demi-Companies so both DC groups have Obsec, Tactical Doctrines, Free Transports

Demi Company 1
Captain - 90
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Assault Squad with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90
5 Dev Squad with 4 Grav, Cherub in Drop Pod with Locator Beacon - 225

Demi-Company 2
Chaplain - 90
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Assault Squad with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90
5 Dev Squad with 4 Grav, Cherub in Drop Pod with Locator Beacon - 225

1st Company Task Force (PE vs one unit at start of game, -2 Leadership for enemy if within 12" of 3 units)
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod

1845

one from MikhailLenin

Spoiler:

New White Scars based on new SM Codex:

Gladius Strike Force Detachment - Gain Combat Doctrines

Battle Company (2 Demi Company Combined) Core - All Transport purchased are Free, but not their Upgrades. Additionally gain 2 Tactical Doctrines and all Models in it are Objective Secured.

Kor-Sarro Khan (Warlord - Grants Scout to all and 12" Reroll Morale Bubble)
Chaplain w/ Auspex
6x 5 Tactical Marines with 1 Grav Cannon/Amp in a Razorback with Lascannon / TL Plasma
2x 5 Assault Marines with 2 Flamers in a Razorback with Lascannon / TL Plasma
2x 5 Devastator Marines with 1 Grav Cannon/Amp in a Razorback with Lascannon / TL Plasma

Storm Wing Auxilliary - As long as 1 Stormtalon is alive, the Raven gains Strafing Run.

Stormraven with TL AssCan, TL MM
2x Stormtalon with TL AssCan, Skyhammer Missiles

Total Points 1850.

I think he ended up swapping some grav on tacs around, but still.

Those lists are strong, and very well put-together, but at the same time the main caveat still stands: Lack of durability.

You are counting on your opponent not being able to neutralize 3/4 units a turn. Eldar, Necrons, Tau, KDK, Mechanicus, even Orks have armies that could easily pull this off. You are also essentially giving up First Blood, which can be decisive.

Second, while these lists have two dozen scoring units, there are no games where there are two dozen objectives. With smart objective placement (i.e. spreading them out over the table) your opponent only has to control/contest a couple of key objectives to win the game.

I'm not denying that these lists are powerful and potentially meta-shifting. They definitely are, and players will have to think about adding more Anti-Tank to their lists. But neither of these armies are what I would consider OP or broken.

 pretre wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Wait, so is there actually no way to get regular SM Bikers in a Gladius?

There are. You can take them instead of an assault squad.

Ah, missed that one. But still, that's only 1 squad per formation. Guess my friend's Scars army will continue to be a CAD, which kinda sucks.

Never thought I'd see the day space marines could take vehicle squadrons in normal 40k.

Feels unnatural *shrugs*

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Those lists are strong, and very well put-together, but at the same time the main caveat still stands: Lack of durability.

You are counting on your opponent not being able to neutralize 3/4 units a turn. Eldar, Necrons, Tau, KDK, Mechanicus, even Orks have armies that could easily pull this off. You are also essentially giving up First Blood, which can be decisive.

Second, while these lists have two dozen scoring units, there are no games where there are two dozen objectives. With smart objective placement (i.e. spreading them out over the table) your opponent only has to control/contest a couple of key objectives to win the game.

I'm not denying that these lists are powerful and potentially meta-shifting. They definitely are, and players will have to think about adding more Anti-Tank to their lists. But neither of these armies are what I would consider OP or broken.

Umm. I'm dropping 7 pods on Turn one. A lot of my opponents army is going to go poof. Unless they make me go first and are also a null deployment army, there is no way they are getting first blood (because I null deploy and get first shot). Even though there are not 2 dozen objectives, if I put 2 pods (and 2 squads) on each objective, you're gonna have a hard time getting to them. Even if you neutralize four units a turn (which is a lot), it takes you 6 turns to destroy the army. Again, that's a rough road for almost any army. And that assumes that I'm not killing anything of yours, which is ridiculous. This has 3 uses of doctrines and cherubs for the devastators. That's going to be a lot of good shooting on turn 1. (Say 2 dev pods, 3 Sternguard pods, 2 Tactical pods. Pop Cherubs (rerolls for devs) and tactical doctrine (rerolls for Tacs and 1's for Sterns). Preferred Enemy on one unit for the sterns.)

it doesn't make them harder to kill to have 440 pts in free transports on the board. To have 2290 pts on the board in an 1850 game? What did you expect T5? There own reanimation protocol? I'd argue a lot of it make them harder to kill.

Isn't the cherub just rerolls for a single model once per game? You're better off doing Dev doctrine turn 1 to reroll those salvo grav cannons.

Harder to wipe out maybe, but easier to gain KP off of.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Isn't the cherub just rerolls for a single model once per game? You're better off doing Dev doctrine turn 1 to reroll those salvo grav cannons.

I'll have to recheck. I thought it was squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Henshini wrote:
Harder to wipe out maybe, but easier to gain KP off of.

Sure, but KP isn't a common tournament mission now.

Yeah... that DropPod list seems uber good.

The only fault I see is lack of decent anti-air.

I'm curious what would a pod list would look like if you could fit in a Storm Wing Auxilliary?

Henshini wrote:
Harder to wipe out maybe, but easier to gain KP off of.

When the Drop Pods lists are capable of nuking 1/3rd or more your army before you can blink, suddenly there's a lot fewer so called, "easy kill points" to be had...

It seems like a lot of the apologists assume that the Marine player is going to roll nothing but 1's and 2's for an entire Shooting phase and leave the opposing army entirely intact.
Accept it - Marines got the Eldar treatment, it's just not as obnoxiously obvious as 'OMG!ScatterbikesandDeverywhere!!!'

Experiment 626 wrote:

Henshini wrote:
Harder to wipe out maybe, but easier to gain KP off of.

When the Drop Pods lists are capable of nuking 1/3rd or more your army before you can blink, suddenly there's a lot fewer so called, "easy kill points" to be had...

It seems like a lot of the apologists assume that the Marine player is going to roll nothing but 1's and 2's for an entire Shooting phase and leave the opposing army entirely intact.
Accept it - Marines got the Eldar treatment, it's just not as obnoxiously obvious as 'OMG!ScatterbikesandDeverywhere!!!'

Speaking of which how has the OMG Scatterbiker D effected the competitive meta anyway?

Im curious as to how well the triple vindy will do and if its worth taking the techmarine formation to keep it shooting.

 Desubot wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Henshini wrote:
Harder to wipe out maybe, but easier to gain KP off of.

When the Drop Pods lists are capable of nuking 1/3rd or more your army before you can blink, suddenly there's a lot fewer so called, "easy kill points" to be had...

It seems like a lot of the apologists assume that the Marine player is going to roll nothing but 1's and 2's for an entire Shooting phase and leave the opposing army entirely intact.
Accept it - Marines got the Eldar treatment, it's just not as obnoxiously obvious as 'OMG!ScatterbikesandDeverywhere!!!'

Speaking of which how has the OMG Scatterbiker D effected the competitive meta anyway?

Im curious as to how well the triple vindy will do and if its worth taking the techmarine formation to keep it shooting.

I don't think there have been enough big tournaments to see it dominating (especially as people are probably still buying and building crap tons of jetbikes), but people are definitely building their lists around it. MSU lists didn't change much (as that seems to be an appropriate response), but I have seen people take D into consideration when they put together armies.

 whembly wrote:
Yeah... that DropPod list seems uber good.

The only fault I see is lack of decent anti-air.

I'm curious what would a pod list would look like if you could fit in a Storm Wing Auxilliary?

The three Sternguard are 435
The Storm Raven with TLL/TLMM and 2 Stormtalons with Skyhammer are 430.

So easy swap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Henshini wrote:
Harder to wipe out maybe, but easier to gain KP off of.

When the Drop Pods lists are capable of nuking 1/3rd or more your army before you can blink, suddenly there's a lot fewer so called, "easy kill points" to be had...

It seems like a lot of the apologists assume that the Marine player is going to roll nothing but 1's and 2's for an entire Shooting phase and leave the opposing army entirely intact.
Accept it - Marines got the Eldar treatment, it's just not as obnoxiously obvious as 'OMG!ScatterbikesandDeverywhere!!!'

Speaking of which how has the OMG Scatterbiker D effected the competitive meta anyway?

Im curious as to how well the triple vindy will do and if its worth taking the techmarine formation to keep it shooting.

The triple vindy won't last. You just have to kill one and then it is normal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Henshini wrote:
Harder to wipe out maybe, but easier to gain KP off of.

When the Drop Pods lists are capable of nuking 1/3rd or more your army before you can blink, suddenly there's a lot fewer so called, "easy kill points" to be had...

It seems like a lot of the apologists assume that the Marine player is going to roll nothing but 1's and 2's for an entire Shooting phase and leave the opposing army entirely intact.
Accept it - Marines got the Eldar treatment, it's just not as obnoxiously obvious as 'OMG!ScatterbikesandDeverywhere!!!'

Good thing that SM player can reroll all those 1's.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Just a quick one:

Two Demi-Companies so both DC groups have Obsec, Tactical Doctrines, Free Transports

Demi Company 1
Captain - 90
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Assault Squad with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90
5 Dev Squad with 4 Grav, Cherub in Drop Pod with Locator Beacon - 225

Demi-Company 2
Chaplain - 90
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Assault Squad with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90
5 Dev Squad with 4 Grav, Cherub in Drop Pod with Locator Beacon - 225

1st Company Task Force (PE vs one unit at start of game, -2 Leadership for enemy if within 12" of 3 units)
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod

1845

Your list is 1885. A tactical squad with deathwing DP is 105 and the assault squad is 95. So you're 35 too fat on a list that's almost trimmed to the bone. You could drop the Cherub and both locator beacons and then you'd be 1855, which means you need to drop a Deathwind or 2. Honestly, I think that list merely annoying than it is gamebreaking and why have 3 Sternguards, when they're basically dead weight without combi's? Also, I can't honestly see what that list can do against a proper bubblewrap list, other than flamers but since bubblewrap units are bought as disposable bodies, I'd doubt that anything meaningfull will die in turn 1. And as the poster said above, I don't think this kind of list holds a candle to Eldar/Necron/Flyrant lists.
Personally, I'd be more intimidated by the WS list posted.