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Sining wrote:
X-Wing is produced by them as well iirc.

I have heard that as well. Since now two people on the Internet say it, it must be true! Joking aside I have heard that mentioned and I believe they do Armada too, for obvious reasons.

The switch (mostly) doesn't impact me as I review my pledge and I think the only thing they switched that I'm getting was the N-117 model (so a big win for hating the Veer-myn as a concept I suppose). All I can muster there is "meh" as far as outrage. It does make me less inclined to back Mantic KS projects though, and that was an area that really didn't need the help.

Dust Studios also did/are doing the miniatures for Conan, Blood Rage, The Others and Zombicide Black Plague. For me there's no issue with the miniatures they can produce (That's all separate to the Dust game issues) its the change from resin to PVC thats annoying while something like the Aberration will translate OK to PVC as its large it will still lose fine detail as can seen if you compare the resin Gen 1 to the restic version.

 Kanluwen wrote:
N7-117? Heh.

Is he going to be retail? I might be picking him up for painting purposes.

Actually, N7-117 is a her, not a him, and she's a KS exclusive, so no retail, but fairly likely she'll end up on the loyalty point store.

Gotta say, I'm not really a fan of the new render, strays way too far from the original concept art.

Pretty much confirmed as PVC now

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1117050328312627&set=gm.1087493151290741&type=3&theater

Chris Palmer
Chris Palmer It will be the same plastic as Dungeon Saga, the Kings of War Dragon, The Others and The Wrath of Kings.
Like · 6 hours ago

In other news the original Deadzone is 50% off for the weekend



http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/gifts/deadzone.html

Hmmm.. having paid $33 + $10 shipping for 3 minis, I'm not massively enthusiastic about the switch to PVC.

Use your connections to get somebody to smack Ronnie on the nose with a rolled up newspaper....


"No!, bad Ronnie, stop that, stop that now!"


I actually wonder if all the hassle over getting the Resin Blaine done has soured relationships in the casting industry,

it would certainly be an easier pill to swallow than mantic not actually seeing a difference between a high quality resin cast and the same number of items in PVC (even good quality PVC

That is a very good deal on Deadzone, for the miniatures alone. Add in the terrain, dice etc etc and it is a really good investment. Any new buyers that fancy it just be aware that the Deadzone rules will be changing in quarter 1 2016 with the release of Deadzone 2.0/Infestation.

@Scarletsquig: Yup, that is a very poor deal for you and other similar backers. As someone on the RC who has a degree (it may be relatively minor) of dealings with Mantic have you any insights as to why daft decisions often seem to be the go to option as of late?

I'm sorry to say this, but it really does feel like Mantic have hired a conservative financial consultant, and they have taken to heart his advice that they should be willing to burn bridges with loyal customers in the pursuit of short term profits. Perhaps their new license is so big they no longer care about what their former supporters do, since they know enough people will flock to whatever they do next based on the license.

Whatever it is, it's a brash, ugly, and arrogant attitude shift from a company I had supported and felt invested in.

There have been problems since I started backing Mantic campaigns with Deadzone, but for me, they've been relatively minor (I wasn't part of Dungeon Saga), and I thought Mantic had put the "bad old days" of their fledgling KS efforts behind them. I've pretty much dismissed "bait-and-switch" claims as histrionic up till this point. Even now, I doubt that "bait-and-switch" is entirely apt, as I doubt this was Mantic's plan from the beginning. But it has essentially defaulted into a "bait-and-switch" effect, regardless. I thought we wouldn't see this willingness to pull disrespectful stunts on their customers until Ronnie got bored, sold the company, and it came under new, screw-the-customers management.

This is a game changer, and from the looks of things online, that's a majority opinion. I will be interested to see how long Mantic can keep up their nonchalant wall of silence on this issue. Their new license may be a killer, but this is going to haunt them and impact their KS support regardless.

I'm sure their financial adviser is shaking his head "no" on any thoughts of "making up the value" to backers with extra figures or sprues. Time to fire that guy, folks. Frankly, you ought to have known better in the first place.

I'm regretting DZI, but am increasingly grateful that I didn't sign on to any bundle pledge deals for Warpath, so I can rest easy knowing that everything I spend my credit on there will be HIPS and nothing else.

Oh, and who still thinks the Warpath Mules will be cast in resin? Caveat emptor. Mu hu ha ha ha . . .

I honestly doubt they've hired anybody that's changed anything.

On another note (and I realize this is the 'net), I honestly also doubt that Mantic's next KS will perform one bit less than their previous forays. People continue to buy in and buy in big--even the people who swear their disappointment at the latest KS deliverables while optimistically backing the next one.

If I were Renton I wouldn't change a thing. Their formula is working.

Not touching the next one. 'Cause I know what it is. And I'm not interested. Bullet. Dodged.

I guess you can take the Ronnie out of Games Workshop but you can't take the Games Workshop out of Ronnie.



"Fineplast." Dubbing it now.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I guess you can take the Ronnie out of Games Workshop but you can't take the Games Workshop out of Ronnie.



"Fineplast." Dubbing it now.

Why not "Finetic"? Then they get the added value of nerds bickering over the phonetics...or would it be finetics...

I question that the formula is working as well as it once did. And this is not just for Mantic. I think there is a fair bit of Kickstarter fatigue in general as people are fed up with delays, often cheaper availability at retail and with the knowledge of what you are actually getting in terms of sculpts, material and quality of components. Looking at Mantic's last few Kickstarters:

Warpath: $484,917
Deadzone 2: $380,554
KOW 2: $366,547
Dungeon Saga: $1,057,975
Deadzone Extreme: $575,755

Dungeon Saga was the obvious hit there, a testament to the popularity of Dungeon Crawlers and the board game market. The other systems tend to show a drop off in funding with KOW 1 and 2 being the only one to show an increase, and then of only $12k. KOW1 was Mantic's first KS when the system was more of an unknown then and Mantic were far well less known.

More recently:

Deadzone 1: $1,216,482
Deadzone 2: $380,554

So a drop off of $835928

Dreadball 1:$728,985
Dreadball Extreme: $575,755

A drop off of $153230

Then you had Warpath failing to beat $500k when many considered it to be a $1+ million Kickstarter.

So not as successful as the Kickstarters once were. Admittedly it is still a very viable business model for Mantic, and this is before they get the retail sales from the funded games and miniatures. For example Dungeon saga is selling very well and I believe sold out until January. But with every material change, every poor component and every mis-packed delivery Mantic are slowly eroding their customer base and engendering bad will amongst the community. Just look at the Deadzone: Infestation comments section on the Kickstarter page, it is hitting near toxic levels. Then again the new "mystery" IP may well exceed the Mantic KS record set by Deadzone 1. We shall see.

I pulled out of the WP KS when it was obvious they were waffling back into their old ways. Anytime "anything" is promised "soon" you should know right then and there to back away slowly.

I like Mantic and am a customer from day one basically. For various reasons including a limited hobby budget I have not participated in their kickstarters so far. I bought a lot of their product at retail though. Like half a locker full. They have some good games and many okay minis and they deliver in niches that GW has failed to. Their scifi terrain is also really good.

But I dont like the 'most cheapish-preorder'-idea they use kickstarter for. This concept lacks in several departments.

For example the new vehicles. They do look great and I plan to buy at least three of the tunneler and the flyer kits. But I don't see how these can actually be produced and sold within the limitation of 25$. They have to and should increase the retail price significantly - maybe even to twice as much - if they want to make money from it. This should then fund future releases.

I am a customer who prefers actual quality over the most cheapish minis-approach. I will still buy at a higher price IF the quality is there.

Mantic has some both cheap and good miniatures like the Forgeguard no doubt. Maybe not topnotch but they are an overall nice product. For a quite low price. Does this make them money?

With their current business model they have to make compromises that really show (Basileans made some of my club's players very upset).

Crowdfunding is a nice thing. But in case of Mantic who I have and will buy product from it could turn out to be the wrong choice. Because everyone is currently expecting lots of stuff - for very few money. I do too, but changed my mind after some of their product turned out to be bad.

I think you are putting the cart before the horse on the quality/price subject. Or in Mantic's case, the chariot before the boars.


Do you truly believe the bearded tank or the faceship are worth $50?

If they they come in hard plastic, have options and will be as large as similiar models from GW or other manufacturers yes. Mantic's buildings aren't that cheap either. But the quality is imo good. Maybe the 3D prints are misleading how large and of what quality they will be. 50? 40? I cannot say what would be a good price but I hope Mantic is not producing them with low quality technic like the Basileans were. There is quite some cheap and crap plastic product on the model market I would not buy even for 25$.

Why would you expect anything from Mantic not to be cheap and/or crap? That's their MO.

Having just caught up with this thread late on, could someone please very quickly summarise the material change and for what game system?

 Pacific wrote:
Having just caught up with this thread late on, could someone please very quickly summarise the material change and for what game system?

DeadZone Infestation at the moment; resin and metal for some models -> Dungeon Saga-style plastic by Dust Studios.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Why would you expect anything from Mantic not to be cheap and/or crap? That's their MO.

Well

I re-read your earlier post. The bearded tank and the Enforcer flyer are indeed not good and would probably not sell at higher prices - I think they won't sell anyway. Who greenlights such bad designs? But change at least their major issues and they could sell. There aren't that many scifi plastic tabletop vehicles yet.

The kits I mentioned are nice designs though. I also like the Corp buggy and the newest Asterian flyer variant.

Anyone mentioned that at the open day they had staff asking people to fill out a survey that was basically "why isn't deadzone selling/being played" ...... I know a common thing people talked about was the figures. If you are Mantic then you gave to looking at FFG, CMON etc knocking out the sales with the guard game figures requiring no assembly and then wanting some of that money. I' gave up assembling my deadzone and sold it on, horrendous figures, whereas the dungeon saga figures are great. Sucks if you backed the KS but that's the nature of KS.......

There is a real dichotomy between the board games and wargames market, board gamers seem to generally hate even the simplest of construction of figures. Personally I had no issues with the construction of the miniatures from Deadzone. The only one you had to think about was the Enforcer Engineer, apart from that it was mainly a case of gluing arms and heads onto bodies.

Maybe Mantic is going the route of KOW and Warpath being their wargaming franchises whilst everything else will be labeled as a board game? That would make sense and if backers/retail purchasers invest with that in mind then it would
help to reduce a lot of the criticism. What we currently have is a hodge podge of games and miniatures that blur the lines between the two and ultimately neither the board game or wargame camp is entirely happy.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Anyone mentioned that at the open day they had staff asking people to fill out a survey that was basically "why isn't deadzone selling/being played" ...... I know a common thing people talked about was the figures. If you are Mantic then you gave to looking at FFG, CMON etc knocking out the sales with the guard game figures requiring no assembly and then wanting some of that money. I' gave up assembling my deadzone and sold it on, horrendous figures, whereas the dungeon saga figures are great. Sucks if you backed the KS but that's the nature of KS.......

Well, I didn't get to fill out any survey on DZ. I like the figures.. barring the early restic mess. The rules are terrible though. I know there is a following but for me it's cringe-worthy and majorly unbalanced.

 Mymearan wrote:
Boardgame plastic replacing metal and resin? Are they insane? Really glad i only purchased HIPS sprues now... Jesus Christ.

Ouch. Agreed - and also glad I only got HIPS.

Ugh, this is getting ridiculous. I'm getting all carried away again.

Alright, here's where I stand:

1. Making last minute material changes after the PM has closed is dickish, and something I thought Mantic had put behind them.

2. I will not invest much faith in future offers of limited / KS only Mantic resin miniatures, bundled with pledges or otherwise. I don't think anyone should. Am I being unfair or unreasonable?

3. Customer opinions don't matter. Opinions on Dakka don't matter. Opinions on KS comments sections don't matter. In fact, no one's opinion matters, or impacts present or future sales or profit margins in any way. And by the way, even though the numbers don't support it, for every critic there's someone happy about this change, so it all balances out 50 / 50, even though it doesn't. If Mantic do something their customers don't like, we should pat them on the back and encourage them to do it more often, so they become a better business. There are always other customers, and "We don't need your money, anyway" is the motto of businesses around the globe, which is why none of them have customer relations departments. The sky is orange, too.

4. On balance, this change actually benefits me in some ways - I'd rather have boardgame plastic versions of figures than metal ones. Not a total loss. But I don't like losing high value resins that influenced my decision to pledge, and I don't like the way Mantic have handled this. So far.

5. The formulaic Mantic response to situations like this actually isn't "Suck it, guys. We don't need you, anyway." That's the formulaic response of some Dakka commentators unaffiliated with Mantic whose opinions don't matter. Mantic's usual response is "Sorry, but we had to do this for X reasons" followed by "here's some extra figures to make up." That's their precedent. It's one of the reasons I have been a repeat customer.

6. All things considered, I intend to keep buying and using Mantic products until I stop liking them or they become too expensive for their britches. But I'm already buying less, and supporting their KS campaigns less, and waiting for the final product more often before investing. I know I don't matter, but the number of KS backers at $1 during the Warpath campaign hit record levels for Mantic, so it would seem more people are approaching Mantic KS campaigns cautiously. Those people don't matter, either. In fact, anyone with anything critical to say about Mantic doesn't matter. In fact, it's all so meaningless that no one should ever say or write anything.

Hmm. Got carried away again anyway. I give up.

 Vermonter wrote:
Opinions on Dakka don't matter.

That's due to economies of scale.

lol, yeah.. people will stop being critical on the internet..

I feel sorry for people who are buying those DZ boxes now with no clue that a re-write is in the works.

 .Mikes. wrote:

 Vermonter wrote:
Opinions on Dakka don't matter.

That's due to economies of scale.

I know it's popular to argue this, especially when a particular argument is getting tiresome. But I don't buy it. Opinions on Dakka actually do have influence. I read Dakka opinions long before I started posting here, and they definitely impacted my buying decisions. If I'm the only person that's true for, then yes, opinions expressed here don't matter much.

But honestly, if there's so little at stake here, why bother arguing with me about it in the first place? My opinion doesn't matter, and neither does yours, so why are we wasting our time? I'm not out to claim that I have particular sway with Mantic or any other business, or that I'm better / more important than anyone else, etc. But this argument that nothing said here carries any weight whatsoever gets absurd fast. Dakka opinions have influenced my buying habits quite a lot. I expect that's true for most people here, whether they care to admit it or not, and for quite a few more people who read but don't post. Many game companies are small companies. What doesn't impact GW impacts them.

As for Mantic not adjusting their behavior due to complaints from just one man or multiples thereof, this is demonstrably false, not in terms of "your opinion is no better than mine, and they're both just opinions, so we have an impasse", but rather in terms of what has actually, factually happened time and time again. To argue that criticism can't impact what Mantic does flies in the face of the fact that it has done just that many times over. That responsiveness to criticism has been an admirable quality of theirs. Personally, I think your opinion actually matters, Mikes. Maybe it doesn't resonate with the authority and power of the voice of God, but it matters. And if many people share your opinion and express it, it becomes that much more meaningful.

The only logic I can discern behind "you're just one man, you don't matter, so be quiet" is: 1. "I find you annoying, so shut up", and / or 2., "I like Mantic and you're saying bad things about them, you meanie." Fair enough, I suppose, but not really sound reasoning.

And privateer4hire, please don't try to taunt me by saying you'd do exactly the same thing Mantic has and laugh gleefully while you did it. That's just silly.

If I were pulling in the kind of dosh they're doing by following the same pattern, I would be a fool to change. That's not silly.