Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

One Guardman with a satchel charge can ruin anyone day

 Wyzilla wrote:
Oh, and the Imperial Guard is no less ridiculous than Space Marines, and in some ares are both more stupid and more ridiculous. While the Rhino chassis is actually fairly sensible, pretty much every Imperial Guard vehicle is mind boggingly stupid and should either not work at all due to having less clearance than a Zamboni, or being so massive it gets stuck in the mud like the Ratte would have.

I think that Imperial Guard turning from Marines Lite into a completely different force in Space Marine and 2nd Ed was horribly stupid. It really doesn't make sense to make starship-transported forces a primitive cannon fodder.

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Oh, and the Imperial Guard is no less ridiculous than Space Marines, and in some ares are both more stupid and more ridiculous. While the Rhino chassis is actually fairly sensible, pretty much every Imperial Guard vehicle is mind boggingly stupid and should either not work at all due to having less clearance than a Zamboni, or being so massive it gets stuck in the mud like the Ratte would have.

I think that Imperial Guard turning from Marines Lite into a completely different force in Space Marine and 2nd Ed was horribly stupid. It really doesn't make sense to make starship-transported forces a primitive cannon fodder.

Well they transport dissolved protein goo with starships, so it's only logical that they transport cannon folders with starships as well...

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

No, but they have access to the same juvenat treatments. Canoness are usually very, very old. Way longer than they could naturally be.

Source?

IIRC Canoness Carmina who filed a complaint about the Flesh Tearers at Armageddon had been a battlefield commander for almost a century. "Chapter Master Seth offered me no tactical counsel, but I've become used to that from the Adeptus Astartes after nearly a century of leading my sisters in battle." She didn't spring to command at age 16, and a Canoness usually leads from the front just as a marine commander does - she has to be in shape to do battle.

A regular sister isn't likely to receive too much in the way of juvenat treatments or augmetics, but a good leader will be expected to accept whatever gifts the Ecclesiarchy can give her so she can serve longer. That's all she does.

Can't rule out the weird 'faith' effect, or as I like to put it, emperor demonic possession extending their life as well.

There's a reason why that Thor bloke in the fluff was so good at what he does, he certainly had help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, about Sisters being used to take out marines.

Whilst ideally, marines themselves would be used for this purpose, or if the right location permitted (open battle) the guard could also do this. I just don't see many scenarios where sisters would be better than marines at the task.

Sisters tend to fight in close fire fights, that really plays exactly into marines hands, giving the marines the advantage where their physical augmentations can really manifest in an extreme advantage.

Now, the flip side to this, and what hasn't been mentioned of as far as I am aware is, advanced tactics the sisters may use. Whilst it stands to reason, that marines are capable of adapting and utilising varied and in-depth strategy and tactics due to their combat education, maybe the high lords have means of dealing with marines when needed and coerce with the ecclesiarchy with certain training regimes just for dealing with marines. I don't know enough about combat warfare to come up with said ideas, but that could stand to reason as one of the ways sisters can actually stand up to marines.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
If physics gets in the way of a good story or character concept, out physics goes. This is the first rule I learned as a writer and I believe it is the most important rule for fiction; the only rules that should matter are the ones you set for the story. Realism only matters if you want it to matter for your story.

Then you learned a really bad lesson. You can only throw physics out as long as the story is still plausible. Nobody is going to care if, after spending a few hours doing calculations, it turns out that your thermodynamics math was slightly off. But if the average reader's reaction is "WTF that makes no sense" then you have a problem. If you're writing in a genre that isn't "ridiculous superhero stories" and a character punches someone so hard that the planet breaks in half then nobody is going to be able to suspend disbelief and accept that your story makes any sense.

The problem with space marines is that their high-end abilities break this rule. If you think about it for even a moment they don't make any sense, and it really ruins the story. So IMO the way to treat those high-end examples is as religious myths and in-universe propaganda. A space marine can't literally survive a direct hit from a titan, just like Achilles (if a real person ever existed to inspire the character) couldn't literally survive any wound that wasn't to his foot. But the Imperium needs its martyrs and heroes to inspire its population to cling desperately to survival for a few more minutes, so an army of elite soldiers with a power level roughly equivalent to their tabletop rules becomes a larger-than-life band of epic warriors with god-like powers and almost unimaginable victories in battle.

Plausibility is determined by internal consistency, not realism. If you establish that people can destroy planets with their own personal power and have them consistently show that this is within their power and a part of the setting; people will accept it. See Homestuck or Strike Legion, in the latter of which there are planet cracking hand grenades but it fits into the overall thematics of the game (the thematic being cocaine snorting lunacy) and the former is done by beings with explicit access to near infinite sources of energy. It's when you drag it in out of nowhere when there was no indication that this was that particular kind of story that you get problems with the suspension of disbelief. It's the same reason that you can't suddenly bring in Lizard people into a modern day setting romantic drama when there was no prior indication that aliens existed in the setting but no one will bat an eye at lizard people in a space opera. The former is simply not plausible within the framework of the story because it's breaks internal consistency.

Admittedly, internal consistency of depictions is not warhammer's strong suit, but generally most good authors find a level they like and stick with it. Anthony Reynolds has Word bearers who can take out fourteen billion guardsmen and three hundred loyalist marines with only 7000 chaos space marines and a demi-legion of titans because that's how he perceives the astartes. Meanwhile Sandy Mitchell and Dan Abnett tend to have Space Marines as quite overwhelming adversaries, but still very much defeatable by normal humans with some luck and stacking the odds in your favor; with the former even having a Khornate berzerker humiliated in a melee duel by a commissar. And some authors rather consistently have chaos space marines die to the imperial guard like slightly larger varieties of cannon fodder than their cultist and traitor guardsman equivalents. I'm entirely fine with all of these so long as the author consistently sticks to a power level, though I find that the latter is rather thematic breaking given that Chaos Astartes shouldn't just be slightly bigger mooks for the guard to slaughter given that they're the elite of team evil.

Stop arguing realism swasta. Each faction in 40k is so immensely absurd in so many different ways whenever you hold your scientifical facts too tight, you you'll get a headache. From the ridiculously psychic eldar to demigod primarchs and Chaos Obliterators that literally morph whatever weapons they want and turn their own bodily cells into live ammunition and they turn their fething blood into plasma, not much in 40k can relate to our world as we know it. 40k is just a fictional space magical universe and nothing else, if you don't like it I suggest you find another hobby.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Stop arguing realism swasta. Each faction in 40k is so immensely absurd in so many different ways whenever you hold your scientifical facts too tight, you you'll get a headache. From the ridiculously psychic eldar to demigod primarchs and Chaos Obliterators that literally morph whatever weapons they want and turn their own bodily cells into live ammunition and they turn their fething blood into plasma, not much in 40k can relate to our world as we know it. 40k is just a fictional space magical universe and nothing else, if you don't like it I suggest you find another hobby.

Warhammer has a whole heap of fantasy elements, but these are all based on edged weapon combat. The rules try to replicate this, while mixing in the daemons and fireballs and ratmen.

To me, anything that adds to the realism of the edged weapon combat makes the game better, as it provides a solid foundation for the fantasy elements to be fantasitical. Imaging that dragon running amok is a lot easier for me (and maybe others) because I can visualize it running around if there are phalanxes of spearmen and formed regiments of cavalry. We don't know how dragons work, but we have a fair idea of how people prepared for and fought using spears, bows and swords.

I genuinely don't get why people say "It's magic and daemons, it can't possibly be realistic", because even the most out there fiction has to obey its own internal logic to be believable. Otherwise it's just a bunch of loose concepts running around in a mess. Warhammer is based on dudes with swords. It should have some connection to how that worked in reality.

Someone else said this in the fantasy thread and I agree with it. Its not a hard argument to understand that a balance is needed in rules and fluff on this stuff. 40k and fantasy fail at the above.

Also 40k isnt a hobby mate. Wargaming is and most wargaming is historical believe it or not. Historical, as I said earlier is what I like. But 40k has potential. For the Guard they can be historical armies in space with a twist fighting aliens in planetary empires. How awesome is that?! But then we have road runner marines with thor hammers and superman abilities leaping around the field at lightning speeds with selective hearing, eagle vision and acid spitting throats. I mean thats kind of lame. It kills the seriousness and when you hear stupid quotes that arent even defendable in fluff like there being only 1 million marines etc it gets even worse. Marines are the least consistent even in universe.

So I will argue for realism, because with just a bit of realism 40k could be taken seriously a bit more. Do you think Dawn of war would have been popular if it had marines as portrayed in the fluff? Nope, because its stupid in the fluff. In the game they are only a bit tougher than everyone else (if that) and die like everyone else. If they moved at huge speeds and killed everything, the game would have flopped. The video game was arguably more popular than the table top game. Goes to show how a bit of balance in the stupidity could go a long way. Which is all I want.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Stop arguing realism swasta. Each faction in 40k is so immensely absurd in so many different ways whenever you hold your scientifical facts too tight, you you'll get a headache. From the ridiculously psychic eldar to demigod primarchs and Chaos Obliterators that literally morph whatever weapons they want and turn their own bodily cells into live ammunition and they turn their fething blood into plasma, not much in 40k can relate to our world as we know it. 40k is just a fictional space magical universe and nothing else, if you don't like it I suggest you find another hobby.

Warhammer has a whole heap of fantasy elements, but these are all based on edged weapon combat. The rules try to replicate this, while mixing in the daemons and fireballs and ratmen.

To me, anything that adds to the realism of the edged weapon combat makes the game better, as it provides a solid foundation for the fantasy elements to be fantasitical. Imaging that dragon running amok is a lot easier for me (and maybe others) because I can visualize it running around if there are phalanxes of spearmen and formed regiments of cavalry. We don't know how dragons work, but we have a fair idea of how people prepared for and fought using spears, bows and swords.

I genuinely don't get why people say "It's magic and daemons, it can't possibly be realistic", because even the most out there fiction has to obey its own internal logic to be believable. Otherwise it's just a bunch of loose concepts running around in a mess. Warhammer is based on dudes with swords. It should have some connection to how that worked in reality.

Someone else said this in the fantasy thread and I agree with it. Its not a hard argument to understand that a balance is needed in rules and fluff on this stuff. 40k and fantasy fail at the above.

Also 40k isnt a hobby mate. Wargaming is and most wargaming is historical believe it or not. Historical, as I said earlier is what I like. But 40k has potential. For the Guard they can be historical armies in space with a twist fighting aliens in planetary empires. How awesome is that?! But then we have road runner marines with thor hammers and superman abilities leaping around the field at lightning speeds with selective hearing, eagle vision and acid spitting throats. I mean thats kind of lame. It kills the seriousness and when you hear stupid quotes that arent even defendable in fluff like there being only 1 million marines etc it gets even worse. Marines are the least consistent even in universe.

So I will argue for realism, because with just a bit of realism 40k could be taken seriously a bit more. Do you think Dawn of war would have been popular if it had marines as portrayed in the fluff? Nope, because its stupid in the fluff. In the game they are only a bit tougher than everyone else (if that) and die like everyone else. If they moved at huge speeds and killed everything, the game would have flopped. The video game was arguably more popular than the table top game. Goes to show how a bit of balance in the stupidity could go a long way. Which is all I want.

Like I literally just said, this is a space magical fictional universe. It's really cute and really nice how you've managed to isolate your IG from every other faction in 40k, calling everything else unrealistic and lame, namely Space Marines. You find ways to cope with IG (who in some ways are just as absurd and idiotic as Space Marines) and block out the stupid gak while pointing at and magnifying the idiocy in Space Marines. I find that in and of itself lame.

I don't think SMs are as fast as you claim they are....they do not travel at lighting speeds and nor do they have to. They are faster than a human being but that doesn't have to mean they're fething Flash kind of fast. If you played SM, I think the way Captain Titus moved; adding just a bit more speed, is a perfect representation of how marines move.

And 1 million marines existing in 40k isn't really stupid. Essentially, SMs are the superhuman beefed up fully armored badasses equivalent to todays Americas Navy Seals. They operate in tiny numbers but they're extremely productable and have been the deciding factor in many engagements. 1,000 marines with millions of IG can quite easily take an entire planet. Guard fight the huge battles and take ground while marines strike and destroy command nodes, rip away spaceports and all those seemingly small things that ultimately win a conflict.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Stop arguing realism swasta. Each faction in 40k is so immensely absurd in so many different ways whenever you hold your scientifical facts too tight, you you'll get a headache. From the ridiculously psychic eldar to demigod primarchs and Chaos Obliterators that literally morph whatever weapons they want and turn their own bodily cells into live ammunition and they turn their fething blood into plasma, not much in 40k can relate to our world as we know it. 40k is just a fictional space magical universe and nothing else, if you don't like it I suggest you find another hobby.

Warhammer has a whole heap of fantasy elements, but these are all based on edged weapon combat. The rules try to replicate this, while mixing in the daemons and fireballs and ratmen.

To me, anything that adds to the realism of the edged weapon combat makes the game better, as it provides a solid foundation for the fantasy elements to be fantasitical. Imaging that dragon running amok is a lot easier for me (and maybe others) because I can visualize it running around if there are phalanxes of spearmen and formed regiments of cavalry. We don't know how dragons work, but we have a fair idea of how people prepared for and fought using spears, bows and swords.

I genuinely don't get why people say "It's magic and daemons, it can't possibly be realistic", because even the most out there fiction has to obey its own internal logic to be believable. Otherwise it's just a bunch of loose concepts running around in a mess. Warhammer is based on dudes with swords. It should have some connection to how that worked in reality.

Someone else said this in the fantasy thread and I agree with it. Its not a hard argument to understand that a balance is needed in rules and fluff on this stuff. 40k and fantasy fail at the above.

Also 40k isnt a hobby mate. Wargaming is and most wargaming is historical believe it or not. Historical, as I said earlier is what I like. But 40k has potential. For the Guard they can be historical armies in space with a twist fighting aliens in planetary empires. How awesome is that?! But then we have road runner marines with thor hammers and superman abilities leaping around the field at lightning speeds with selective hearing, eagle vision and acid spitting throats. I mean thats kind of lame. It kills the seriousness and when you hear stupid quotes that arent even defendable in fluff like there being only 1 million marines etc it gets even worse. Marines are the least consistent even in universe.

So I will argue for realism, because with just a bit of realism 40k could be taken seriously a bit more. Do you think Dawn of war would have been popular if it had marines as portrayed in the fluff? Nope, because its stupid in the fluff. In the game they are only a bit tougher than everyone else (if that) and die like everyone else. If they moved at huge speeds and killed everything, the game would have flopped. The video game was arguably more popular than the table top game. Goes to show how a bit of balance in the stupidity could go a long way. Which is all I want.

Like I literally just said, this is a space magical fictional universe. It's really cute and really nice how you've managed to isolate your IG from every other faction in 40k, calling everything else unrealistic and lame, namely Space Marines. You find ways to cope with IG (who in some ways are just as absurd and idiotic as Space Marines) and block out the stupid gak while pointing at and magnifying the idiocy in Space Marines. I find that in and of itself lame.

I don't think SMs are as fast as you claim they are....they do not travel at lighting speeds and nor do they have to. They are faster than a human being but that doesn't have to mean they're fething Flash kind of fast. If you played SM, I think the way Captain Titus moved; adding just a bit more speed, is a perfect representation of how marines move.

And 1 million marines existing in 40k isn't really stupid. Essentially, SMs are the superhuman beefed up fully armored badasses equivalent to todays Americas Navy Seals. They operate in tiny numbers but they're extremely productable and have been the deciding factor in many engagements. 1,000 marines with millions of IG can quite easily take an entire planet. Guard fight the huge battles and take ground while marines strike and destroy command nodes, rip away spaceports and all those seemingly small things that ultimately win a conflict.

Cool, are legs magical in 40k? No they are legs like all other legs. They should follow the rules of legs. I think IG have many things that need improvement too. Like the fact that millions fight for planets instead of hundreds of millions ot the Leman Russ. Except that at least the Guard has a balance of stupidity and sensible... unlike Space Marines which is all stupidity.

I dont claim they are fast. Any body who can read would know I made no such claim... but others did. I simply pointed out how silly the speed claimed is and everybody got upset that their magic marines got insulted.

1 Million Marines is tiny. You know it took millions of men to fight for stalingrad. The popeing battle had 1 million men a side and it escalated from there. For part of a city. Its a problem I have with the Guard too. The numbers are too small for anything. Also why would Space Marines be good at anything you just suggested? They are huge, heavy, loud and brightly coloured using loud rocket guns at the same time. How is this good for anything but attracting enemy bullets?

Anyway this started from me refuting flash marines and everyone getting upset at that. I suspect many didnt even read the whole thing anyway. But last time I checked magic in 40k was psykers, warp travel, xeno tech and demons. Not legs and other mundane stuff.

Well, I am a student of sport science, who is specialising in biomechanics, and I gave a relatively detailed explanation of how and why a marine would be 'that' fast on the previous page.

I mean, if Usain Bolt can accelerate to 47kph in 7 seconds without the use of illegal performance enhancing eugenics, in 38000 years, it stands to reason that an un augmented human may be able to breach the 5kph gap to 52pkh in under 10 seconds, let alone an augmented super human with many additional organs that facilitate the power and strength required to run so fast, and accelerate to it even faster.

So no mate, not magic marines, with magic legs. It is theoretically more than possible if the described science of a marine in powered armour was to become correct that they could run that fast. Absolutely no bones about that in my mind. In fact, I expect with rejuvenation techniques that such speeds may be possible in my life time, tif such techniques were used for performance enhancing purposes.

What would take years of body honing could be achieved in months.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Stop arguing realism swasta. Each faction in 40k is so immensely absurd in so many different ways whenever you hold your scientifical facts too tight, you you'll get a headache. From the ridiculously psychic eldar to demigod primarchs and Chaos Obliterators that literally morph whatever weapons they want and turn their own bodily cells into live ammunition and they turn their fething blood into plasma, not much in 40k can relate to our world as we know it. 40k is just a fictional space magical universe and nothing else, if you don't like it I suggest you find another hobby.

Warhammer has a whole heap of fantasy elements, but these are all based on edged weapon combat. The rules try to replicate this, while mixing in the daemons and fireballs and ratmen.

To me, anything that adds to the realism of the edged weapon combat makes the game better, as it provides a solid foundation for the fantasy elements to be fantasitical. Imaging that dragon running amok is a lot easier for me (and maybe others) because I can visualize it running around if there are phalanxes of spearmen and formed regiments of cavalry. We don't know how dragons work, but we have a fair idea of how people prepared for and fought using spears, bows and swords.

I genuinely don't get why people say "It's magic and daemons, it can't possibly be realistic", because even the most out there fiction has to obey its own internal logic to be believable. Otherwise it's just a bunch of loose concepts running around in a mess. Warhammer is based on dudes with swords. It should have some connection to how that worked in reality.

Someone else said this in the fantasy thread and I agree with it. Its not a hard argument to understand that a balance is needed in rules and fluff on this stuff. 40k and fantasy fail at the above.

Also 40k isnt a hobby mate. Wargaming is and most wargaming is historical believe it or not. Historical, as I said earlier is what I like. But 40k has potential. For the Guard they can be historical armies in space with a twist fighting aliens in planetary empires. How awesome is that?! But then we have road runner marines with thor hammers and superman abilities leaping around the field at lightning speeds with selective hearing, eagle vision and acid spitting throats. I mean thats kind of lame. It kills the seriousness and when you hear stupid quotes that arent even defendable in fluff like there being only 1 million marines etc it gets even worse. Marines are the least consistent even in universe.

So I will argue for realism, because with just a bit of realism 40k could be taken seriously a bit more. Do you think Dawn of war would have been popular if it had marines as portrayed in the fluff? Nope, because its stupid in the fluff. In the game they are only a bit tougher than everyone else (if that) and die like everyone else. If they moved at huge speeds and killed everything, the game would have flopped. The video game was arguably more popular than the table top game. Goes to show how a bit of balance in the stupidity could go a long way. Which is all I want.

Like I literally just said, this is a space magical fictional universe. It's really cute and really nice how you've managed to isolate your IG from every other faction in 40k, calling everything else unrealistic and lame, namely Space Marines. You find ways to cope with IG (who in some ways are just as absurd and idiotic as Space Marines) and block out the stupid gak while pointing at and magnifying the idiocy in Space Marines. I find that in and of itself lame.

I don't think SMs are as fast as you claim they are....they do not travel at lighting speeds and nor do they have to. They are faster than a human being but that doesn't have to mean they're fething Flash kind of fast. If you played SM, I think the way Captain Titus moved; adding just a bit more speed, is a perfect representation of how marines move.

And 1 million marines existing in 40k isn't really stupid. Essentially, SMs are the superhuman beefed up fully armored badasses equivalent to todays Americas Navy Seals. They operate in tiny numbers but they're extremely productable and have been the deciding factor in many engagements. 1,000 marines with millions of IG can quite easily take an entire planet. Guard fight the huge battles and take ground while marines strike and destroy command nodes, rip away spaceports and all those seemingly small things that ultimately win a conflict.

Cool, are legs magical in 40k? No they are legs like all other legs. They should follow the rules of legs. I think IG have many things that need improvement too. Like the fact that millions fight for planets instead of hundreds of millions ot the Leman Russ. Except that at least the Guard has a balance of stupidity and sensible... unlike Space Marines which is all stupidity.

I dont claim they are fast. Any body who can read would know I made no such claim... but others did. I simply pointed out how silly the speed claimed is and everybody got upset that their magic marines got insulted.

1 Million Marines is tiny. You know it took millions of men to fight for stalingrad. The popeing battle had 1 million men a side and it escalated from there. For part of a city. Its a problem I have with the Guard too. The numbers are too small for anything. Also why would Space Marines be good at anything you just suggested? They are huge, heavy, loud and brightly coloured using loud rocket guns at the same time. How is this good for anything but attracting enemy bullets?

Anyway this started from me refuting flash marines and everyone getting upset at that. I suspect many didnt even read the whole thing anyway. But last time I checked magic in 40k was psykers, warp travel, xeno tech and demons. Not legs and other mundane stuff.

Oh yes, SM legs are soooo magical lol. I have no idea why your so obsessed with the scientifical facts of a human leg but SMs are 7-8 foot tall superhumans and I'm sure they are quite fething fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EndlessWaltz explains it much better obviously lol

Yes the marines are awesome
Yay
Ember

 Wyzilla wrote:
Space Marines are Bretts in space, and retain their demigodlike superhuman nature (you're better off fighting Chaos Warriors than Bretts)

What the hell? Bretonians are just basic humans, except for Grail Knights.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
Second skin doesn't imply that they can feel through it

I am pretty sure I read some fluff saying they it does.

 GKTiberius wrote:
second skin implies that the armor doesn't slow their reflexes or anything. without it there is a momentary lag, like someone trying to move with a heavy set of armor on as the limbs and other appendages can only move as fast as the armor does.

I have never, ever read of any kind of lag in power armor. There was no initiative penalty for wearing power armor in Inquisitor, and I doubt there was in any RPG ever.

 GKTiberius wrote:
and before anyone screams source at me, that is how power armor work.

No, it works with technomagic from the future!

*

I refer you to the Lexicanum entry on sororitas power armour, which has been referenced multiple times, so im not sure why you keep crowing for the source.

Crafted by the forges of Mars, Sororitas Power Armour is relatively lighter than most suits, providing excellent protection and increased strength at negligible loss to the user's mobility and agility. It uses the same power source as the Astartes, and thus will effectively last forever if properly maintained and undamaged.[5]
Though Sororitas Power Armour provides the same level of protection as suits worn by the Space Marines, the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so lacks the same strength enhancement and other advanced life-support features found in Astartes power armour.[3] Still, Sororitas Power Armour does improve the user's strength and allows them to better handle heavy weapons more easily.[5]

Also, with these insistence on sources, and your refusal to acknowledge material presented in them forces me to ask, where have you gotten your information? what source material give you the impression the SOB are so superior to SM. You make it sound as if the SOB are on par with grey knights in their abilities to take on super human threats.

In your opinion they are capable of defeating daemon incursions with relative ease, when have they done that unaided? is it a wide spread phenomenon? also I understand they have a reputation for killing heretics and the like, and yes there are high level pyskers and the occasional summoned daemon included in that purview, but can a sisters detachment really stand up, relatively to say, a massive tyranid invasion, or a necron assault? If so, where is the source for that? Please elaborate on the material you base these opinions on, because everything I have ever read about sisters places them between guardsmen and space marines in capability, equipment, and resiliency.

I'm not saying sisters are useless or inept, but they are not on the same level universally. Yes individual SOB can achieve that level temporarily on occasion, but the average SOB can't go toe to toe with the average space Marine. At best the analogy could be made that the Sororitas is to guardsmen what a Grey knight is to a space marine. they are better trained, equipped, and more resilient than guardsman, but ultimately they are still human

 Psienesis wrote:
... it's an FFG game. Their encumbrance and movement rules are hilariously terrible, even before Space Marines get involved.

In my current Dark Heresy game, one of the characters is a 17 year old Tribal Psyker. She's *slightly* tougher than the average, but has devoted none of her XP to buying increases in STR or TGH, and can still strap on almost 200kg and walk around like it's nothing.

I'm pretty sure you're doing the encumbrance rules wrong. The walk around like it's nothing column is on the left side of the chart, not the right, which is maximum pushing ability (not even lifting -- pushing). To do what you are describing your character as doing, you would need SB + TB of 13, which is actually impossible, since SB and TB top out at 6 for unaugmented human beings.

 GKTiberius wrote:
I refer you to the Lexicanum entry on sororitas power armour, which has been referenced multiple times, so im not sure why you keep crowing for the source.

Crafted by the forges of Mars, Sororitas Power Armour is relatively lighter than most suits, providing excellent protection and increased strength at negligible loss to the user's mobility and agility. It uses the same power source as the Astartes, and thus will effectively last forever if properly maintained and undamaged.[5]
Though Sororitas Power Armour provides the same level of protection as suits worn by the Space Marines, the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so lacks the same strength enhancement and other advanced life-support features found in Astartes power armour.[3] Still, Sororitas Power Armour does improve the user's strength and allows them to better handle heavy weapons more easily.[5]

So, it is stating the lag is negligible and that sisters do not get the life-support stuff., but that it does improve the user's strength. Kind of what I was saying, no?

 GKTiberius wrote:
Also, with these insistence on sources, and your refusal to acknowledge material presented in them forces me to ask, where have you gotten your information?

Information about the marine being able to feel through the armor? I cannot remember, maybe just a misunderstanding of the ubiquitous “second skin” expression.

 GKTiberius wrote:
what source material give you the impression the SOB are so superior to SM.

Go back in the thread. I put a marine at about 1,1sister. So the marine is still slightly superior. So everything you ask me to prove is just based on a wrong understanding of what I said.

 GKTiberius wrote:
In your opinion they are capable of defeating daemon incursions with relative ease, when have they done that unaided?

I never said they could defeat daemon incursions with ease, and that basically means nothing. A bunch of nurgling being summoned or Angron with his ten bloodthirsters retinue are both daemon incursions. The Sisters can deal with the first one with ease, but certainly will have problems with the second one. For Sisters fighting daemon, there is a blurb about Sisters going into a shrine world turned into a daemon world and completely full of Khorne daemons to get some relics back. But it is all meaningless without numbers involved for both forces.

 GKTiberius wrote:
also I understand they have a reputation for killing heretics and the like, and yes there are high level pyskers and the occasional summoned daemon included in that purview, but can a sisters detachment really stand up, relatively to say, a massive tyranid invasion, or a necron assault?

Nobody can stand up to a massive tyranid invasion. Nobody. The ultramarines are a lie, they bow to the great devourer now. However, a canoness can and will kill a hive tyrant. Which is pretty badass already, is it not?

... I’m having a real hard time taking you seriously at this point. What gives you the impression that the Ultramarines are a lie... and you are seriously going to use a obviously kit bashed model of a gene stealer crossed with a tac marine, as proof, if you are going to try to pass that off as a joke, you don’t seem to understand the appropriate placement of jokes in a discourse. Seriously asking someone to prove a point, and then when asked to prove your point you respond with a joke, it seriously undermines your credibility. I'm going call it like I see it. You sir, are a troll.

You are only here to refute claims based on your own opinion with baseless assertions and sourceless conclusions. The assertions I am asking you to prove, after you demand proof for nearly every statement I make, are not based on my misunderstanding of your assertions. Where does it say the Ecclisiarchy spends most of its money on SOB equipment? Specifically what source gives you the impression the SOB could handily repel even a relatively minor daemon incursion? (nurglings also mean plagues and disease, so how would they be equipped to handle that?) Where are your sources on this mystical equipment that will appear as soon as GW makes a legitimate line for SOB? Do you have an actual source for that or is it just wishful thinking?

You are apparently confusing opinion and fact. I will concede that some of my initial assertions of SOB were wrong (primarily my impression of the support that SOB get, I thought they were more independent and self reliant than they are from the ecclisarchy, and after reading more information about them I know now that is wrong), and as a result I have learned more about them from this discourse than I originally had, but you seem intractable. You side step questions, and make obviously false and inflammatory statements about SM, like you have some sort of personal dislike or hatred of them. I know this is an open forum for a fictional universe and I probably shouldn’t get this bent out of shape, but you don’t seem to understand the fundamental parameters and rules of appropriate discourse.

@GKTiberius and Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl

I would say you are both relatively wrong on some point, but right on others. Yes Sisters of Battle armor are a little bit worse than Astartes armor when it comes to auxilary systems. They offer the same level of protection. They simply don't have all the kinks. In the same fashion, Godwyn pattern bolters (the Space Marines ones) are inferior to Godwyn-Daez pattern bolter (the Sororitas ones) even their power is similar it's in the recoil, reload ease, precision, reliabillity, etc. that the Sororitas weapon is better. So in short, Astartes armor is better but doesn't offer better protection and Sororitas weapons are better, but don't give them superior firepower. In resume gear is equal, not superior or worse.

As for your question about Sisters vs Tyranid hordes GKTiberius, I would propose you to read the story Saint Praxedes. She was a Cannonness of the Order of Our Martyred Lady who became the first martyr of Hive fleet Kraken. She and her 300 or so fellow Sister allowed millions of refugee to flee their doomed planet and fought against the Tyranid horde a guerilla style of warfare for 200 years behind the ennemie line. She herself killed singlehandedly two hive tyrants before being killed (by the second hive tyrant). She was canonised saint after her heroic death. Basically, she did a feat that even heroic Space Marines would find daunting and proved to be equal or at least rivalling in skill, bravery and excellence the very best of the Adeptus Astartes. For the necron, I would push you to read Hammer and Anvil where a small group of Sisters destroy narrowly and entire moon worth of necrons it's the Sororitas version of the world engins except Sisters came back alive from this one. A single detachment of 1000 Sister of Battle was credited for the liberation of a 100 worlds. If that's not heroic worthy of any Space Marines, then I guess I need to read a lot more Space Marines stuff because that seems to be pretty similar.

Sisters and Space Marines have been described multiple times as fighting back to back and shoulder to shoulder has equals. Even the deathwatch rulebook which praise (and in my opinion overpraise sometime) Space Marines has a mention of Space Marines and Sister making excellent mix. Even down to organisation level the two groups are similar. A commandery is roughly the size of a companie and a preceptory (the largest level of operation Sister is comparable to a Chapter). Sisters aren't superhuman in size and strength, but they do have their own superpowers in the form of magic.

In my head canon (which is worth nothing mind you) Marines are superior to Sisters because they are superhuman. Once in a while, a Sister of Battle will be so good she will be able to best one in duel, but they represent a minority. It takes two or three Sisters to take down or rival a Space Marines.

I will definitely check that story out. It very well may change my view of sisters.

 Kain wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
A tactical squad dropping in from a drop pod would obliterate an entire IG regiment with relative ease.

What marines?

LOL its a good point but tell me how artillery helps you if the battle starts at your artillery?

@GKTiberius

If you want to read Hammer and Anvil, I would suggest you to read Faith and Fire too. Hammer and Anvil is a sequal. It would help your appreciation of the second book to read the first to introduce you some characters, but it's not mandatory since the two stories aren't directly connected.

When it comes to Sisters vs Space Marines, I have found out that many people know very little about Sisters. I used to think they were the most boring (and useless) faction in the entire game by a landslide. At that point thow, I never read anything about them beside a few tiny bits that can be resumed like so: «human women zeolots with space marines basic weapons who hates psykers and mutants.» It's after reading their fluff and actualy getting intersted in them that I realised that what I knew about them was almost more like a prejudice than an honest depiction of them. Which I would resume in a single sentence now has: «Martyrs and holy warriors».

Maybe you will come the same conclusion than I. In any case, I think your appreciation of this faction may grow a little on you. I personnaly think the concept of normal humans rivalling Space Marines throw the use of esotheric training methods, similar gear and supernatural devotion rather interesting. They make an excellent reflexion of Space Marines who are strong of body, but weak of mind vs Sororitas who are weak of body, but strong of mind.

I am very interested in learning more, and i will definitely check those title out. Also, i would agree with your assessment of my opinion of SOB as my real in depth, post lexicanum reading on them is woefully lacking. I think if anything makes a faction more interesting and adds depth it is a good thing. One dimensional factions rife with stereotypes and tropes only hurts the game.

 GKTiberius wrote:
What gives you the impression that the Ultramarines are a lie...

It was a joke and an excuse to show off a cool conversion and alternate version of the fluff where the Ultramarines are actually a genestealer cult now, rather than having defeated the tyranids. Because I always felt it made no sense that a chapter alone could have defeated a whole hive fleet.

 GKTiberius wrote:
Seriously asking someone to prove a point, and then when asked to prove your point you respond with a joke, it seriously undermines your credibility.

The rest of my message was serious. It does actually include a link to Canoness Praxedes story. I guess you have not clicked on it, though, since you seem to have discovered her existence from Epronovost's post.

 GKTiberius wrote:
Where does it say the Ecclisiarchy spends most of its money on SOB equipment?

It is made pretty clear in the codices, and in the Faith and Fire book, that the Sororitas have a place of very high prestige in the Ecclesiarchy. The Abbess is even usually a High Lord of Terra. So it only make sense that they get the very best wargear available. And that does not need to constitute most of the Ecclesiarchy's fortune. Even a small portion means each sister can get billions time more money invested in her wargear than a guardsman would.
So, unless you have a source contradicting that, or even something hinting that it is not the case, I am going to consider it a fact that the Ecclesiarchy cares to give the Sisters the best wargear available, and that money is not really a problem even if that means extremely expensive stuff.

 GKTiberius wrote:
Specifically what source gives you the impression the SOB could handily repel even a relatively minor daemon incursion?

That fluff blurb I mentioned in my previous message, for instance? Along with the fact Sisters are exceptionally resistant to chaos corruption? Or this passage in

where they do?

 GKTiberius wrote:
Where are your sources on this mystical equipment that will appear as soon as GW makes a legitimate line for SOB?

Where are your sources on the centurion from before the centurion models were introduced? There was none! And then suddenly, the model was introduced, and there were sources about it on the fluff. Same will happen with the Sisters. Same happen with about every new release for every army ever since the beginning of the game.
However, I do have a source on a Sororitas super heavy, in Imperial Armor volume 2 second edition. A giant megachurch on threads.

 GKTiberius wrote:
I will concede that some of my initial assertions of SOB were wrong (primarily my impression of the support that SOB get, I thought they were more independent and self reliant than they are from the ecclisarchy, and after reading more information about them I know now that is wrong), and as a result I have learned more about them from this discourse than I originally had

Then my job here is done! Farewell, good sir!

For those still debating the Sisters / Marines - the recent Sheild of Baal showcased the Sisters in a very major way - art, background, style, prowess - in fact in every area except actual rules ...........

 Mr Morden wrote:
For those still debating the Sisters / Marines - the recent Sheild of Baal showcased the Sisters in a very major way - art, background, style, prowess - in fact in every area except actual rules ...........

At this rate I think we'll see the Squats get a codex before the Sisters get anything more than table scraps from Geedubs.

I'm actually OK with that. Our codex is pretty badass, and I already have enough Sisters to make a relatively competitive army. Its new players that we're really hurting for, and it's new players that a plastic range of miniatures will really benefit.

Also, GKTiberius, you might want to check out the most recent Grey Knight codex. There are some pretty awesome Sisters in there - they actually rescue Draigo twice in one short story, and they've been retconned out of the Bloodtide fluff.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Stop arguing realism swasta. Each faction in 40k is so immensely absurd in so many different ways whenever you hold your scientifical facts too tight, you you'll get a headache. From the ridiculously psychic eldar to demigod primarchs and Chaos Obliterators that literally morph whatever weapons they want and turn their own bodily cells into live ammunition and they turn their fething blood into plasma, not much in 40k can relate to our world as we know it. 40k is just a fictional space magical universe and nothing else, if you don't like it I suggest you find another hobby.

Warhammer has a whole heap of fantasy elements, but these are all based on edged weapon combat. The rules try to replicate this, while mixing in the daemons and fireballs and ratmen.

To me, anything that adds to the realism of the edged weapon combat makes the game better, as it provides a solid foundation for the fantasy elements to be fantasitical. Imaging that dragon running amok is a lot easier for me (and maybe others) because I can visualize it running around if there are phalanxes of spearmen and formed regiments of cavalry. We don't know how dragons work, but we have a fair idea of how people prepared for and fought using spears, bows and swords.

I genuinely don't get why people say "It's magic and daemons, it can't possibly be realistic", because even the most out there fiction has to obey its own internal logic to be believable. Otherwise it's just a bunch of loose concepts running around in a mess. Warhammer is based on dudes with swords. It should have some connection to how that worked in reality.

Someone else said this in the fantasy thread and I agree with it. Its not a hard argument to understand that a balance is needed in rules and fluff on this stuff. 40k and fantasy fail at the above.

Also 40k isnt a hobby mate. Wargaming is and most wargaming is historical believe it or not. Historical, as I said earlier is what I like. But 40k has potential. For the Guard they can be historical armies in space with a twist fighting aliens in planetary empires. How awesome is that?! But then we have road runner marines with thor hammers and superman abilities leaping around the field at lightning speeds with selective hearing, eagle vision and acid spitting throats. I mean thats kind of lame. It kills the seriousness and when you hear stupid quotes that arent even defendable in fluff like there being only 1 million marines etc it gets even worse. Marines are the least consistent even in universe.

So I will argue for realism, because with just a bit of realism 40k could be taken seriously a bit more. Do you think Dawn of war would have been popular if it had marines as portrayed in the fluff? Nope, because its stupid in the fluff. In the game they are only a bit tougher than everyone else (if that) and die like everyone else. If they moved at huge speeds and killed everything, the game would have flopped. The video game was arguably more popular than the table top game. Goes to show how a bit of balance in the stupidity could go a long way. Which is all I want.

This is not a thread about ballance on the table top or realism - this is a thread about super humans with thor hammers running like road runners with shots bouncing off of them crushing everything in their path would have no problem defeating IG forces. Like ironclads vs wooden frigates - they just wouldn't have a chance.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
What gives you the impression that the Ultramarines are a lie...

It was a joke and an excuse to show off a cool conversion and alternate version of the fluff where the Ultramarines are actually a genestealer cult now, rather than having defeated the tyranids. Because I always felt it made no sense that a chapter alone could have defeated a whole hive fleet.

It was not a chapter alone, it was a chapter, billions of Ultramar's PDF (which are better trained and equipped than the regular Imperial Guard), a Titan Legion, the orbital defenses, 2 Battlefleets and whatever help they could get from the nearby sectors.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I'm actually OK with that. Our codex is pretty badass, and I already have enough Sisters to make a relatively competitive army. Its new players that we're really hurting for, and it's new players that a plastic range of miniatures will really benefit.

Also, GKTiberius, you might want to check out the most recent Grey Knight codex. There are some pretty awesome Sisters in there - they actually rescue Draigo twice in one short story, and they've been retconned out of the Bloodtide fluff.

I thought the new blood tide story was where they rescue draigo and give up their lives to defeat the daemons. ill have to go back and check. I like the new GK fluff alot more than the 5th ed Mary sue fest (they are still Mary sues, but not as bad)