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 Thud wrote:
I love how whenever someone complains about "whiners" and "haters" and "internet negativity" they never actually link to any examples.

Now, stop being such a whiner!

 Ratius wrote:
realise tomorrow no one will even remember the post.

Pfft, I remember everything.

Forums are even more serious than plastic soldiers.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

I will admit, first of all to not reading the 5 paragraph long OP in that thread,....

Then, at the very least, that thread might serve as a valuable lesson in why it's a good idea to read the thread before responding to it...

 insaniak wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

I will admit, first of all to not reading the 5 paragraph long OP in that thread,....

Then, at the very least, that thread might serve as a valuable lesson in why it's a good idea to read the thread before responding to it...

Why's that? Sorry I skimmed the first page.

 Chute82 wrote:
Some people like to troll threads just to stir the pot.

But only the ones who I disagree with. Those ones who I do agree with are just telling it like it is.

 Elemental wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Some people like to troll threads just to stir the pot.

But only the ones who I disagree with. Those ones who I do agree with are just telling it like it is.

Not always - there are a number of folks whose opinions I agree with, but whose delivery of those opinions is detrimental to the validity of those opinions.

Merely yelling 'Warhammer Fantasy Battles latest edition is MONKEY POO! may be something that I agree with... but it lacks supporting structure. (I dislike the increased randomness in both Fantasy and 40K. Just yelling 'MONKEY POO! I say!' does not convey the dislike of the randomness of the rules. )

The Auld Grump - plus, it is insulting to monkeys....

Some people just suck, its easy to ignore if you really must.

 insaniak wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

I will admit, first of all to not reading the 5 paragraph long OP in that thread,....

Then, at the very least, that thread might serve as a valuable lesson in why it's a good idea to read the thread before responding to it...

Orrrrrr... Make thread titles clearer. This thread case in point.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:


Orrrrrr... Make thread titles clearer. This thread case in point.

Orrrr...you could put in a little effort to read the OP.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Orrrrrr... Make thread titles clearer. This thread case in point.

The thread title on that thread was clear. You just needed to actually read the first post to put it into context.

The thing is, if you're not interested in, you know, actually reading an existing discussion before jumping in... what are you doing on a discussion forum that revolves around written discussion?

It's akin to overhearing a part of a comment out of context while walking past a group of people at a party, and immediately just diving in to make sure everyone is aware of your opinion on the matter, without bothering to take the time to establish whether that's actually the matter under discussion. It's rude, and unnecessary.

 Blacksails wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:


Orrrrrr... Make thread titles clearer. This thread case in point.

Orrrr...you could put in a little effort to read the OP.

The two arguments are not incompatible - it is a non-informative thread title and taking a look at the OP would have been a good idea.

So, yeah... both in the wrong, pretty much evenly.

The Auld Grump

 insaniak wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Orrrrrr... Make thread titles clearer. This thread case in point.

The thread title on that thread was clear. You just needed to actually read the first post to put it into context.

The thing is, if you're not interested in, you know, actually reading an existing discussion before jumping in... what are you doing on a discussion forum that revolves around written discussion?

It's akin to overhearing a part of a comment out of context while walking past a group of people at a party, and immediately just diving in to make sure everyone is aware of your opinion on the matter, without bothering to take the time to establish whether that's actually the matter under discussion. It's rude, and unnecessary.

This seems to be something in which some people don't have much of an investment.

This is not the only thread, nor these the only forums to have had members with this problem.

MB

It seems like the whole INTERNET has that problem...

You get people saying completely irrelevant things in verbal conversations as well. It's not isolated to the internet.

Regarding why people would post negative, personal opinions, because they're discussing the subject. A discussion without different viewpoints is an echo chamber, and gets terribly boring.

Games are very much an emotional thing.
The intriguing puzzle of them lend some cerebral "joy".
Asking about a game will very much invite opinion.
You might as well ask what is the best artist/band to listen to.
The more balanced posts will try to list pro/con on a game.
Oddly, some detracting points for one person could be a plus for others.

CSM's are so ugly I like how they look.
X-wing I feel has the best pick-up game running now.
40k mechanics suck, but I am hoping not, one day.
Robotech Tactics models are exquisitely irritating to assemble, but look pretty good.

I could make observations like this all day and have an army of people disagree.
The conflicting viewpoints are great because they help you think more about your choices.

I never learned anything from someone who agreed with me.

I have never stated that having a conflicting opinion is wrong/bad or unwanted. Just stating your opinion as fact without an explanation is bad and, to me, unwanted. These boards are meant for the exchange of ideas and for that to happen people must give the basis for their opinions so that others can support or attack their position. Otherwise people may as well just keep saying "Yes it does" and "No it doesn't" until the electrons fade from their screens.

Talizvar- sometimes you can learn from someone who agrees with you. Not everyone will have the same reason as you for their position. As such you may learn a new fact or point of view from them.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Remember that whiners are a very vocal Minority.

So they get noticed, as is with the whole social justice warriors movement.

The problem IMHO is that there are so many people shoveling poorly explained(written) criticisms, negativity or trolling on discussion threads that you
cannot see the true criticisms for what they are when posted, and there are those who just want an echo chamber, and can't handle criticism.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Talizvar- sometimes you can learn from someone who agrees with you. Not everyone will have the same reason as you for their position. As such you may learn a new fact or point of view from them.

It still does not make you examine a different view, just support for my existing one, the "echo chamber" as mentioned.

I sometimes wonder what is the better stance to take: defending my view, attacking yours or playing devil's advocate to see how hard it is to defend the opposite view.

Sometimes extreme negativity is born from bad experiences, sometimes those stories give the real answer you seek.

What is being pointed to as unhelpful is when people hijack the discussion with their own agendas: trolling, attention seeking or liking their own voice which I am swiftly approaching.

So what is the point? Again?

 Jimsolo wrote:
It seems like the whole INTERNET has that problem...

Yes... Well... Exactly!

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As I have said elsewhere (and others on this thread have pointed out), there is a difference between having an opinion supported by facts, or at the very least decent argumentation (the difference between a SOUND and VALID point - A "Sound" point is True, by nature of being supported by Facts, which support the premises of an argument. A "Valid" point is one in which the premises support the conclusion, but for which the facts might not support the premises... i.e. The conclusion might not be actually true, even though it derives from the premises, because the premises could be false).

There is, in gaming, an awful lot of "I like it, therefore it is true."

Well... Not just in gaming, but in pretty much everything, but the forum here happens to be dealing primarily with gaming.

There is also, as indicated above, the unfortunate fact that opinions (beliefs) can be wrong.

You are definitely entitled to have an opinion. But simply having one does not mean that it is correct.

MB

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I have never stated that having a conflicting opinion is wrong/bad or unwanted. Just stating your opinion as fact without an explanation is bad and, to me, unwanted. These boards are meant for the exchange of ideas and for that to happen people must give the basis for their opinions so that others can support or attack their position. Otherwise people may as well just keep saying "Yes it does" and "No it doesn't" until the electrons fade from their screens.

Talizvar- sometimes you can learn from someone who agrees with you. Not everyone will have the same reason as you for their position. As such you may learn a new fact or point of view from them.

A:'These minis are gak'.
B:'Please explain your position, I cannot understand your position'.
A:'I just do not like the look of them'.
B:'What is it you do not like?'
A:'The look of them'.
B:'What about them in particular?'
A:'they look rubbish'.
B:'Why?....'

And the majority of discussions based on subjective preference go like this. Some more verbose than others. You don't have to support or attack either. You can just move on to something you find more agreeable (In your opinion).

BeAfraid wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
It seems like the whole INTERNET has that problem...

Yes... Well... Exactly!

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As I have said elsewhere (and others on this thread have pointed out), there is a difference between having an opinion supported by facts, or at the very least decent argumentation (the difference between a SOUND and VALID point - A "Sound" point is True, by nature of being supported by Facts, which support the premises of an argument. A "Valid" point is one in which the premises support the conclusion, but for which the facts might not support the premises... i.e. The conclusion might not be actually true, even though it derives from the premises, because the premises could be false).

There is, in gaming, an awful lot of "I like it, therefore it is true."

Well... Not just in gaming, but in pretty much everything, but the forum here happens to be dealing primarily with gaming.

There is also, as indicated above, the unfortunate fact that opinions (beliefs) can be wrong.

You are definitely entitled to have an opinion. But simply having one does not mean that it is correct.

MB

You can always go to another forum.... oh wait that was I white knight comment... Gasp! I'm sooooo sorry.....

Heh heh heh thought things were getting a little too serious here.... I used to crush those poor little oppressed apoligists with the heel of my iron shodden boots. Really can't find those pure at heart in their beliefs that their game was so awesome. But I digress as this was more or less satire in nature.

Whats the point? Well here's a point. The market place. Bty It is a good read.

http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/2015/05/where-did-all-these-mini-companies-come.html

Its a combination of triblism and people wanting to be right. Welcome to life.

 Pete Melvin wrote:
Its a combination of triblism and people wanting to be right. Welcome to life.

Perhaps.

The internet does strange things to conversation and debate as well. I don't know about anyone else but I suspect that theres a lot of 'getting the final word in' surrounding posting on forums. A lot more than if a conversation had just taken place face to face.

BeAfraid wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
It seems like the whole INTERNET has that problem...

Yes... Well... Exactly!

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As I have said elsewhere (and others on this thread have pointed out), there is a difference between having an opinion supported by facts, or at the very least decent argumentation (the difference between a SOUND and VALID point - A "Sound" point is True, by nature of being supported by Facts, which support the premises of an argument. A "Valid" point is one in which the premises support the conclusion, but for which the facts might not support the premises... i.e. The conclusion might not be actually true, even though it derives from the premises, because the premises could be false).

There is, in gaming, an awful lot of "I like it, therefore it is true."

Well... Not just in gaming, but in pretty much everything, but the forum here happens to be dealing primarily with gaming.

There is also, as indicated above, the unfortunate fact that opinions (beliefs) can be wrong.

You are definitely entitled to have an opinion. But simply having one does not mean that it is correct.

MB

Sometimes you get a tremendous, hilarious amount of irony.

What I have to say is always correct... based on what information I know.
What you say is incorrect if it differs from me... unless you know more or less than I do.

So I see no problem with differing opinions!

What was the quote about all discussions/arguments being those of either facts or values?

For the latter, you have to respect that each person's opinion (or what is important to them) is different, although both of the above often come up in conversation here and there is some crossover. You could say that it's a 'fact' that the resin used in the Dreadball KS or Finecast is poor quality, and there is some objective base to this; the imperfections are possible to see, the resin mix is poor etc. But, the 'values' of someone who has only ever seen that type of mini, and knows no different, will be different from the 'values' of someone who has collected miniatures for years from a dozen different companies and is able to draw comparison. The quality might also again be more or less important to someone, again this comes down to their values.

What I will say however is that having a forum without discussion, without comments and opinions, is no forum at all. People should be allowed to state their opinion, make it a conducive argument backed up fact or the reason for their values, and to be able to engage with others on the topic. If they're not allowed to do this, then what is the point? It would be a true 'echo chamber' where the only discussion and opinion allowed is one that of the forum owners and moderators are permitting. I don't think it is any coincidence that the forums that do this are dwindling in members, while those that do not (such as Dakka) continue to grow in strength. Ultimately, engagement on subjects and discussion of merits and negatives are healthy, and a really important reason why people bother to come to these places.

 Pacific wrote:
Ultimately, engagement on subjects and discussion of merits and negatives are healthy, and a really important reason why people bother to come to these places.

There is always someone who contribute that added bit of information that makes it all worth while.
There may be a few challenges to patience however, but life is not perfect.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Pete Melvin wrote:
Its a combination of triblism and people wanting to be right. Welcome to life.

Perhaps.

The internet does strange things to conversation and debate as well. I don't know about anyone else but I suspect that theres a lot of 'getting the final word in' surrounding posting on forums. A lot more than if a conversation had just taken place face to face.

Neil Stephenson's latest book Seveneves has a major plot point dealing with a group of survivors from earth (roughly 100,000 people) who can only communicate with each other via the internet (or something like it on their spaceship) for something like 500 - 1000 years while they wait for the Earth to become habitable again.

It becomes Tribalism+

Not exactly a good thing.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
It seems like the whole INTERNET has that problem...

Yes... Well... Exactly!

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As I have said elsewhere (and others on this thread have pointed out), there is a difference between having an opinion supported by facts, or at the very least decent argumentation (the difference between a SOUND and VALID point - A "Sound" point is True, by nature of being supported by Facts, which support the premises of an argument. A "Valid" point is one in which the premises support the conclusion, but for which the facts might not support the premises... i.e. The conclusion might not be actually true, even though it derives from the premises, because the premises could be false).

There is, in gaming, an awful lot of "I like it, therefore it is true."

Well... Not just in gaming, but in pretty much everything, but the forum here happens to be dealing primarily with gaming.

There is also, as indicated above, the unfortunate fact that opinions (beliefs) can be wrong.

You are definitely entitled to have an opinion. But simply having one does not mean that it is correct.

MB

Sometimes you get a tremendous, hilarious amount of irony.

You have no idea....

MB

To me it's about what the jumping in point is.

Post: Look at these new models!
Reply: THAT GAME SUCKS.

Vs.

Post: These are the proposed rules for these new models!
Reply: THOSE RULES SUCK.

Even though both replies are clearly trolling, the second one
has some hope for actual discussion.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
What's the point?

Philosophers have struggled with this question for many centuries, eventually culminating in: "I don't think there is a point..." -- Nietzsche, and: "We should probably all kill ourselves." -- Camus. (These may or may not be exact quotes).

It's far easier to ask: why not? Why wouldn't someone come on the internet, to a public forum where they are invited to express their opinions, and bitch about something they don't like? You certainly did.

A lot of your /rant seems to stem from you not personally liking the way "other people" structure their arguments. I feel it's summed up quite neatly by this silly cartoon:

I tend to share your dislike of bad arguments. I think if there is a point, it would be that other people are idiots. For example: recently, my friend has been lumbered with the delightful task of reviewing job applications. The job entails writing, the job title includes the word "writer". Yet for some mind-numbing reason, the majority of applicants submitted sample-texts (that is a text with the express purpose of 'showing off' your writing skills) which had not been spell checked. Why would someone not check their spelling? On a job application to be a writer? How did their spell checker even get turned off? The mind boggles. But as I said: why not? People are idiots... lazy, illiterate, lack common sense: idiots. Why wouldn't they waste your time by submitting a sample-text littered with mistakes and punctuated in their own drool? Why wouldn't they come on the internet and spout their poorly considered and baseless opinions in an off-topic manner? Well, they would! And they do...

I think all you can do about it is learn to sieve through and use your judgement. If someone is being an idiot, what's the point in paying them any heed?