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I prefer playing painted armies personally, but all these immature elitist paint snobs getting on people's cases for not painting their armies make me laugh. Sure, if someone is just being plain lazy I can maybe somewhat understand, but guess what its their army and they can do whatever they want with it whether you like it or not. If they have a life outside of the hobby, you have no right to judge especially if you don't know what they do outside the game store.

peregrine you are a laugh and a half

my sides hurt

mercy

 Ashiraya wrote:

kburn wrote:

You seem to be able to put a lot of effort and dedication into a model which is good. White is one of the hardest colours to paint, and you seem to have got it down solid on most areas, except its the most unfortunate shade of white - pure white, which cannot be highlighted!

When I paint, I try out new techniques and colours to try to approximate the original scheme as closely as possible. With time, it will get better. I am still working on a good method for dirt and grime.

Spoiler:

The thing is, that'll be very hard to achieve by constantly painting models towards that standard, especially one with a white-base. Maybe try taking smaller steps? Do a nice clean model with non-white colours. For each new model you paint, add a new technique, or refine a technique. I'm still learning too. I used to paint powerswords with mithril, and nothing else. Then, I started highlighting and shading with chainmail and boltgun. Yesterday, I just did lightning effect for the very first time using the BOLS guide. I'm not going to go back to repaint the ones I did with mithril and nothing else, as it shows a progression of skills throughout the years. More importantly, I've used the basics for those models, so they all look good, just not as slick.

To create the grimy look is not simple. You need to learn to paint sand, dirt, and even greenstuff some stuff on, not to mention the positioning of the grime.

How about this, paint a model cleanly, with shading and highlighting, everything within the lines, BUT, make his boots dirty, just a bit dirty. You can do this by using very watered down shade of light brown. Sort of glaze parts of his boots. After that, use watered down brown to shade it. From there, work on making other parts grimy, adding battle injury, etc.

I applaud your ambition, but I feel you need to work on the basics more. No one cannot get better at the basics, even the top painters. There's always room to add more layers of shading, make more realistic highlighting, and get flatter coats of paint. A skillfully painted basic model will always be better than one which tries to add a lot but lack the basics.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:
Since it's apparently a tendency specific for the last decade, it makes me wonder if it's related to Dawn of War games.
People getting into Wh40k primarily through video games instead through falling in love with miniatures painted by the GW 'Eavy Metal team like in 90s and early 00s.

I don't think so, even if you get into 40k through DoW you probably did it because you loved the fluff and models of DoW and want to create that same awesome stuff on the table. I think the bigger factor is GW's change of priorities. They used to be a company that made the best possible models and games, and you bought their stuff because you loved it. Now their goal seems to be sales numbers at all costs, driven by people who don't understand gaming. The game experience is no longer the product GW is selling, it's the marketing tool GW uses to sell as many plastic toys as possible. And why have a painting requirement that might scare off a potential customer? They're probably never going to finish their space marine starter set and play the game anyway.

Video gamers are gamers first and often not modellers at all, though. I got into Wh40k when I saw an article in a local newspaper and fell in love with the miniatures and I was interested in historical modelling before. Actually, I still have a GW brochure from 1993 that I got in a local model store.

kburn wrote:
I applaud your ambition, but I feel you need to work on the basics more. No one cannot get better at the basics, even the top painters. There's always room to add more layers of shading, make more realistic highlighting, and get flatter coats of paint. A skillfully painted basic model will always be better than one which tries to add a lot but lack the basics.

Nah. I have my brother to guide me, who is a much more experienced painter. His help is very, well, helpful.

I am confident in doing my best, from the start.

It's not really the topic though. *Points at PMs*

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:
Video gamers are gamers first and often not modellers at all, though.

Sure, but how many of the ones that are pure gamers are going to make the transition to an expensive tabletop wargame instead of just playing more DoW?

Plumbumbarum wrote:
I'd take the average gamer's basecoat/ wash/ drybrush tabletop standard model over one painted like models in white dwarf or codieces any day. The latter are cartoonish and can actualy ruin the codex for me, let's take csm one you get all that grimdark art and then derp, who put the lego in here. Tyranid Leviathan hive fleet for example is the pinnacle of this, the idea for colours is great but the execution somehow kills half the appeal of models imo. It's not all about technique, I dont like some golden daemon winners either, can appreciate the mastery level ofc but would never want my army looking like that.

I also dislike the GW painting style lately. Besides that, I dislike non-metallic metal.

I like Blanchitsu and FW styles.


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 Peregrine wrote:

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:
Video gamers are gamers first and often not modellers at all, though.

Sure, but how many of the ones that are pure gamers are going to make the transition to an expensive tabletop wargame instead of just playing more DoW?

I suspect that there may be much more DoW players than tabletop players, so it's possible that those who moved to tabletop are now majority of the tabletop players.

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:
I suspect that there may be much more DoW players than tabletop players

I very strongly suspect this is not the case.

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:
I suspect that there may be much more DoW players than tabletop players, so it's possible that those who moved to tabletop are now majority of the tabletop players.

That depends entirely on how you define "DoW players". Do you count people who played the game once or twice and then moved on when the next RTS came out? Or do you really think that there are more hardcore DoW fans, the kind who would invest hundreds to thousands of dollars in a new hobby just to do more with their beloved game, than tabletop 40k players? I seriously doubt that this is the case, given that DoW was a decent video game that had some fans but never made much of a lasting impact on the genre. This isn't Starcraft we're talking about.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

There is utterly no obligation to paint your models to play. Not in war games not in board games.

Go tell that to the historical wargames community. The whole "painted models are optional" thing is mostly limited to the scifi/fantasy community, and seems to be the result of GW's shift from being a legitimate miniature wargaming community to selling as many boxes of space marines to kids as they possibly can.

Peregrine: Agreed.
I have not seen anyone I know who plays Napoleonic tabletop or De Bellis Antiquitatis (DBA) have anything but completely painted, 15mm mind you but still a ton of models to paint.

The easiest means was where there were "sactioned" tournaments it was mandatory to have painted miniatures.
So those who like to continue to defend their right not to paint can continue to do nothing.
Unless various others are numerous enough to keep refusing to play unpainted armies...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, I was asking around for a game of 40k at my FLGS for next week when I visited (no army on me) and was asked "You have a painted army if I remember correctly right?".

It matters, that is all I can say.

Here is the thing. I never said it didnt matter. I never said you have to play against people who don't paint their armies. Hell I don't even have a problem with tournaments having a painted models only rule. I just don't like this idea that anyone who doesn't paint their models owe it to those who do to paint there models and they shouldn't even be allowed to play unless they paint up the models they have. This idea that someone coming into a store with an unpainted or half painted army is somehow insulting and something to be sneered at.

I also don't like people using ridiculous false equivalency like comparing painting models to hygiene. So once again, you dont have to play against unpainted models, but don't act like people who don't paint their models or haven't yet painted their models owes you anything or are obliged to do what you wish. They are not any more than you are obliged to play games against unpainted models.

Its the differenc between telling someone, "I dont like playing against unpainted armies, so sorry mate you'll have to try to find someone who doesnt mind playing against them." To "You shouldn't be playing with unpainted models, so just go home and dont come back until you've painted them." an important distinction I feel.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

There is utterly no obligation to paint your models to play. Not in war games not in board games.

Go tell that to the historical wargames community. The whole "painted models are optional" thing is mostly limited to the scifi/fantasy community, and seems to be the result of GW's shift from being a legitimate miniature wargaming community to selling as many boxes of space marines to kids as they possibly can.

Peregrine: Agreed.
I have not seen anyone I know who plays Napoleonic tabletop or De Bellis Antiquitatis (DBA) have anything but completely painted, 15mm mind you but still a ton of models to paint.

The easiest means was where there were "sactioned" tournaments it was mandatory to have painted miniatures.
So those who like to continue to defend their right not to paint can continue to do nothing.
Unless various others are numerous enough to keep refusing to play unpainted armies...

The difference is that historical miniature wargaming is a tiny niche for fanatics of modelling and isn't dependent of gaming stores. So, it already has a huge barrier of entry of owning a gamespace. And those who own gamespace can decide that they don't want to paint miniatures, so they'll play a boardgame with counters. There are tons of historical wargames that are boardgames with counters.

In case of sci-fi/fantasy wargaming, it's miniature based and played in game stores. So, if one wants to play, one has to play with miniatures. Which is how non-modellers end up playing Wh40k.

One thing. Polish gaming scene is dominated by Wh40k because the main wargame store chain - Bard sells Wh40k. There used to be another store chain - Flamberg that sold and provided gamespace for Infinity, Warmachine, Hordes and Flames of War but it turned to exclusively selling Magic the Gathering.
So, Poles are stuck with the insane choice to play Wh40k. Why insane? Polish minimum monthly net wage is 223GBP. That's 4,58 x less than in UK. Which means that miniatures cost 4,58 x more work than in UK. Can you imagine paying 114GBP for a Codex? Or 63GBP for a SM Devastator Squad?
Because that's how miniature wargaming works in Poland. Basic Codex costs more work than a FW Horus Heresy book in UK.
In any sane world, Laserburn would be the most popular sci-fi wargame here and 28mm would be represented only by skirmish games but somehow Wh40k still managed to dominate hobby stores.

@Aszubaruzah Surn

Yes Blanche ftw he should paint it all from scratch, I'd know what I pay for when buying a codex. Fat chance though.

 Sheokronath wrote:
Unpainted armies don't bother me at all. I've been playing for four years and have around 4000 points of Chaos Space Marines, the only models who are painted are two or three terminators, around ten CSM and a Chaos Lord and I wouldn't consider any of them finished. Although there's plenty of stuff in the army in various stages of paint.

I have four steady opponents, one guy with a tau army, around 2500 points and not one mini has made it past half a base coat and the same goes for his grey knights except a stormraven painted entirely silver, even the canopy.

The Raven Guard player uses chaos black primer to spray all his minis, most of them forge world 30k stuff, he then heavily paints the eyes red and does a once over of each pauldron in a thin layer of white scar because despite over ten years in the hobby have doesn't really understand how to paint, like layering and washes etc and has no plans to learn.

My brother, the Salamander, has around the same amount painted that I do and he's been playing the same length of time as me.

And finally, the Blood Angel, pays whoever he can to paint his mind to any standard, leading to a mixed look.

And all of the above is fine, as far as I'm concerned. I don't care how their armies look, the minis themselves are good and I'm enjoying the game. Yeah, 40k may not be the best table top game out there and Warmachine/malifaux/whatever may be a better game but I don't really care, I play because I enjoy the fluff of 40k. I don't know the difference between Menoth, Khador or any of the others and frankly don't care and have no interest in learning, if I wasn't playing 40k I wouldn't be tabletop gaming.
40k is just an excuse for me to hang out with my friends and family and maybe make some new friends while I'm at it with the added bonus of letting me assemble some cool looking kits that I always wanted when I spent my teenage years playing dawn of war, I don't care how your army looks as long as you and I can have a good time.

Maybe within the bounds of this friendship we may decide that painting our minis would be enriching to our hobby experience and I'm sure we'll work out a system to support each other while we do that, but I would never consider it may place to tell anyone else how to spend their money or their free time, let alone ostracise anyone who's half as passionate about the 40k setting as I am because their minis are grey. Anyone who wants to talk fluff or share a few stories is welcome at my table.

Exalted! That's the kind of attitude players should have. If you like the game enough, you will play it regardless of if your opponent's army is painted or not. I myself have way more unpainted minis than painted ones (although I am trying to work on that statistic), but I try to be a cool player and pleasant to be around, so I have little trouble getting games (other than when my work schedule doesn't cooperate. ). And I enjoy playing against any army, painted or not, so long as the owner is not a complete TFG-type.

Doesn't bother me really. I don't have time to field a fully painted and based army. I will get there at some point and I paint as I go. One day it will be fully painted just one step at a time.

Since everyone is commenting on paint jobs and if they should be even "allowed" to put them on the table top what about these 2 guys?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/608841-.html?m=2

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/713878-Phantom%20Titan.html?m=2

Before Mr. BoTS comes back,

That's some nice Eldar. Much better than anything I can do.

There is no such thing as a model so poorly painted that it shouldn't be on the table. Even a bad paint job shows effort on the part of the painter.

I will not play models of my own unless they are painted to my satisfaction (I'm realistic, it's better than tabletop standard, but I'm no award-winner), but I will play an opponent who's stuff is not that same standard, but I really would like them to have shown an effort. I'm not going to play an army of half-assembled minis unless they need to be that way because they are waiting for a time they can be painted, and the player needs some parts left off to get to all the detail.

Not everyone can paint, but come on, no one can claim they haven't the time to at least put assembled figures on the table. If they don't, then the probably shouldn't be playing games of 40K length anyway.

That being said, easily the coolest part possible of this hobby is stepping back from a table full of painted miniatures and well-loved terrain, and just taking it in as one whole experience.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Exalted! That's the kind of attitude players should have. If you like the game enough, you will play it regardless of if your opponent's army is painted or not. I myself have way more unpainted minis than painted ones (although I am trying to work on that statistic), but I try to be a cool player and pleasant to be around, so I have little trouble getting games (other than when my work schedule doesn't cooperate. ). And I enjoy playing against any army, painted or not, so long as the owner is not a complete TFG-type.

Thanks for the exalt. I imagine the scenario of having someone approach you in an FLGS and offering you a game in a friendly manner, he tells you that his minis are unpainted and then you can either choose to agree or disagree based on this, while I disagree with turning him down based solely on the state of his army I can understand where people are coming from if the game itself means that much to them, but we need to get one thing clear here, 40k really isn't a game where your first priority at the table should be the game itself, it just isn't. Even Games Workshop has this attitude, it's a beer and pretzels game, it's a core around which you have a social experience.

Back to the scenario, I said I can understand turning the challenger down at this point for the reason stated above but what I truly can't fathom is the attitude of not just turning him down, but believing that this person is ruining a community and that they should pack up their army, go home and never play again because of a standard set by an individual is mean spirited and cruel to say the least.

To use the example stated of painting being a societal obligation akin to bathing. Yes, bathing is an obligation because the majority of society demands it and those who don't comply aren't demanding it. The decision to paint is in no way the same, put the health dangers aside, the majority of the 40k wargaming community clearly does not agree that minis should be painted to take part in the hobby or this thread wouldn't exist. If you then use the excuse that obligation to the community causes you to ostracise a individual for the betterment of said community then you've gone wrong somewhere, if the community doesn't demand painted miniatures yet you're policing it's members likes it does then what you are, frankly, is a bully and 40k as a whole is better suited having the player with his grey legionnaire than the other player but even then I wouldn't tell him to give up what he loves.

If you really want a much better community where more people paint their armies then how about fostering this idea within the people around you, expose them to your painted minis and inspire them, help them, teach them or whatever it is they need, if you relegate them to a league where they play amongst themselves and only there then they aren't going to change. Forcing them away does nothing to help this already small and fractured community blossom. I'd rather be a part of a passionate community helping others than going to a store with the attitude of pressuring people who don't agree with my vision of the hobby out of the store is the right way to go.

Just how I feel about it.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Not everyone can paint

I disagree with this. Virtually everyone can paint. Some people choose not to paint.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:
Since everyone is commenting on paint jobs and if they should be even "allowed" to put them on the table top what about these 2 guys?

They look fine. They're completely painted, details are included, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sheokronath wrote:
Back to the scenario, I said I can understand turning the challenger down at this point for the reason stated above but what I truly can't fathom is the attitude of not just turning him down, but believing that this person is ruining a community and that they should pack up their army, go home and never play again because of a standard set by an individual is mean spirited and cruel to say the least.

Nobody is saying that. They shouldn't quit the game forever, they should go home and paint their army. Once they've met this minimum requirement they're welcome to come back and play some games.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I will not play models of my own unless they are painted to my satisfaction (I'm realistic, it's better than tabletop standard, but I'm no award-winner), but I will play an opponent who's stuff is not that same standard, but I really would like them to have shown an effort. I'm not going to play an army of half-assembled minis unless they need to be that way because they are waiting for a time they can be painted, and the player needs some parts left off to get to all the detail.

Not everyone can paint, but come on, no one can claim they haven't the time to at least put assembled figures on the table. If they don't, then the probably shouldn't be playing games of 40K length anyway.

That being said, easily the coolest part possible of this hobby is stepping back from a table full of painted miniatures and well-loved terrain, and just taking it in as one whole experience.

Absolutely I agree. That's why I love good conversions and counts as armies too. I really do love the visual apeal and getting to take pics and, whether I won or list, step back and admire the craftsmanship put in by both sides. I am not good at painting, but I still did it for my whole army, and I've gotten better the more I practice.

Sure I like teaching newbs how to be more competitive and to help them out with atrategies, rules, etc. and me learning new tricks from the vets, but I love getting to photograph it all/ hanging with my buds at the shop and then posting it on our Facebook page afterwards.


Shoot, if I knew how to put pics on dakka I'd be putting up pics of every game.


All that said, as long as your not a jerk, I have time, and you put effort into your army then I will never turn you down.

 Peregrine wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Not everyone can paint

I disagree with this. Virtually everyone can paint. Some people choose not to paint.

Well, I meant it in the way that everyone can absolutely certainly assemble their models more easily than they can learn to paint, so they should at least do that much before moving to the next step. Noone should have to play against models that do not represent the unit types they are supposed to be, unless there is a specific situation where something is being proxied for some reason, for a single game.

 Peregrine wrote:

Nobody is saying that. They shouldn't quit the game forever, they should go home and paint their army. Once they've met this minimum requirement they're welcome to come back and play some games.

It's no one's place to tell anyone what they should and should not do with their free time and unless you are the proprietor of the premises where they choose to pursue their hobbies or interests then it's also not your place to set the requirements for participation in the activities that take place there.

 Peregrine wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Not everyone can paint

I disagree with this. Virtually everyone can paint. Some people choose not to paint.

Time constraints bub. When it comes down to it if its a choice between sit down and paint or actually play the game they purchased the pieces to alot of people are going to choose to play. It is what it is. I don't think I would enjoy your lgs very much( to judgmental and elitist for my taste) but that is ok, because I have a great one already to go to.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:
Since everyone is commenting on paint jobs and if they should be even "allowed" to put them on the table top what about these 2 guys?

They look fine. They're completely painted, details are included, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sheokronath wrote:
Back to the scenario, I said I can understand turning the challenger down at this point for the reason stated above but what I truly can't fathom is the attitude of not just turning him down, but believing that this person is ruining a community and that they should pack up their army, go home and never play again because of a standard set by an individual is mean spirited and cruel to say the least.

Nobody is saying that. They shouldn't quit the game forever, they should go home and paint their army. Once they've met this minimum requirement they're welcome to come back and play some games.

Ehhh.... Yeah or find a different group with lower standards. There is certainly nothing wrong with painting but if you come off the wrong way then you'll probably be driving away a potential customer for your local shop.

 Sheokronath wrote:
It's no one's place to tell anyone what they should and should not do with their free time and unless you are the proprietor of the premises where they choose to pursue their hobbies or interests then it's also not your place to set the requirements for participation in the activities that take place there.

So you also object to telling people that they need to bathe more than once a month unless you're the store owner?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sheokronath wrote:
It's no one's place to tell anyone what they should and should not do with their free time and unless you are the proprietor of the premises where they choose to pursue their hobbies or interests then it's also not your place to set the requirements for participation in the activities that take place there.

So you also object to telling people that they need to bathe more than once a month unless you're the store owner?

You can tell them but you can't force them to leave unless the store owner kicks them out. Seriously its a free coun... ER world. Even weird people have rights you know.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sheokronath wrote:
It's no one's place to tell anyone what they should and should not do with their free time and unless you are the proprietor of the premises where they choose to pursue their hobbies or interests then it's also not your place to set the requirements for participation in the activities that take place there.

So you also object to telling people that they need to bathe more than once a month unless you're the store owner?

No, tell them if you wish, it's your right to make your opinion known, but once you've told them they don't have to leave or bathe and you have no right to make them do either.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
You can tell them but you can't force them to leave unless the store owner kicks them out. Seriously its a free coun... ER world. Even weird people have rights you know.

Obviously I can't, but nobody is suggesting that they have the ability to force someone to leave a store. We can, however, refuse to play against them and let them sit in the corner watching until they get bored and go home to paint their models.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
You can tell them but you can't force them to leave unless the store owner kicks them out. Seriously its a free coun... ER world. Even weird people have rights you know.

Obviously I can't, but nobody is suggesting that they have the ability to force someone to leave a store. We can, however, refuse to play against them and let them sit in the corner watching until they get bored and go home to paint their models.

Given the number of unpainted armies I suspect it's more a matter of just finding someone else in the room than it is painting their armies.

 Sheokronath wrote:
Given the number of unpainted armies I suspect it's more a matter of just finding someone else in the room than it is painting their armies.

Yes, obviously the situation isn't ideal right now. But people with unpainted armies should be excluded until they paint them, like they would be in the historicals community. It's unfortunate that GW has managed to lower the scifi/fantasy community's standards with their obsessive "sales at any cost" approach and unpainted armies are tolerated.

This discussion comes up from time to time, as do other discussions on this board that relate to annoying people that enjoy this hobby. One group of people that this community seems to find annoying are people with BO. Another group have been named as little Timmys and they tend to annoy people with screaming. There are other catagories of annoying players that have also been described in these forums, such as the table flipping guy, a sub catagory of the infamous tfg.

The point is all these different behaviors exist on a spectrum of annoying. Unpainted armies exist within this spectrum. Where we all choose to put them is up to us as individuals. When l see an unpainted army l am reminded of this spectrum that exists in wargaming communities

Paint yer damn armies. What are you, a casual?