Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Crisis Teams can be taken in 9 man squads.

A full Retaliation Cadre would be insane! You can't even field it decently in a 1850 game.

I could see some of these being good for huge point games even.

 Tinkrr wrote:
To be fair, is the 1-9 thing really that big of a deal? Like we've already had a codex supplement that allowed Crisis Suits as troop choices.

I think what they're trying to do is make Crisis Suits, and to some extent Riptides, saturate less of the Elite slot, such that we have more room for things like the Ghostkeel and the Stealth Suits. Though that still doesn't address all of the issues Stealth Suits have, and I still think they'd just make better troop options.

Realistically many people already fielded six plus Crisis Suits, and could get away with more thanks to things like the FSE or just the body guard teams, but at least now there's more room for other elite choices. Not only that, but making one unit of six, instead of two units of three, isn't exactly always better, because it makes shooting more awkward at times, while also making return fire potentially do more damage.

It is for a few reasons.

1) It makes a Farsight Bomb 90 points cheaper (no need to use Bodyguards).

2) It alleviates the stacked Elites slot problem everyone has with Tau.

3) It makes them that much nastier for a Buffmander to join without requiring Farsight. Imagine 9 dual Missile Pod Crisis Suits with a Buffmander as part of the Hunter Contingent Not the most efficient unit as it is still fairly easy to kill (I guess use the Commander with Iridium Armor to tank somewhat?) but nonetheless hilarious when you throw Target Locks in.

Quite frankly only my MP Suits would have more than 3 crisis suits in them. Other squads would probably goto 4 max since i always feel 3 isnt enough, but i feel 6 is overkill if theyre trying to utilize fusions/plasmas.

That and the base size increase would be a problem. Still think 50mm is too damn big for a crisis suit.

 luke1705 wrote:
Also, confirmed that the run and shoot thing works, but only for units from the hunter cadre, and only if they're within 12" of the commander at the start of the shooting phase. So no stealth cadre units doing that

Stealth suits in the hunter cadre can....but not the optimized stealth group. (As if OSG needed any extras anyway)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Quite frankly only my MP Suits would have more than 3 crisis suits in them. Other squads would probably goto 4 max since i always feel 3 isnt enough, but i feel 6 is overkill if theyre trying to utilize fusions/plasmas.

That and the base size increase would be a problem. Still think 50mm is too damn big for a crisis suit.

The old Crisis Suits barely fit on 40mm bases, I see no problem with putting the new ones on 50mms honestly. Sure it might suck in some ways from game-balance perspective but honestly it is the best fit for them model-wise.

Caederes wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
To be fair, is the 1-9 thing really that big of a deal? Like we've already had a codex supplement that allowed Crisis Suits as troop choices.

I think what they're trying to do is make Crisis Suits, and to some extent Riptides, saturate less of the Elite slot, such that we have more room for things like the Ghostkeel and the Stealth Suits. Though that still doesn't address all of the issues Stealth Suits have, and I still think they'd just make better troop options.

Realistically many people already fielded six plus Crisis Suits, and could get away with more thanks to things like the FSE or just the body guard teams, but at least now there's more room for other elite choices. Not only that, but making one unit of six, instead of two units of three, isn't exactly always better, because it makes shooting more awkward at times, while also making return fire potentially do more damage.

It is for a few reasons.

1) It makes a Farsight Bomb 90 points cheaper (no need to use Bodyguards).

2) It alleviates the stacked Elites slot problem everyone has with Tau.

3) It makes them that much nastier for a Buffmander to join without requiring Farsight. Imagine 9 dual Missile Pod Crisis Suits with a Buffmander as part of the Hunter Contingent Not the most efficient unit as it is still fairly easy to kill (I guess use the Commander with Iridium Armor to tank somewhat?) but nonetheless hilarious when you throw Target Locks in.

I so totally addressed all of those thing, except the first one because I don't like Farsight.... Shadowsun for life!

Oh, speaking of which, did Shadowsun get any changes in the new codex?

So how quickly will I be expected to re base my 16 current suits?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tinkrr wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
To be fair, is the 1-9 thing really that big of a deal? Like we've already had a codex supplement that allowed Crisis Suits as troop choices.

I think what they're trying to do is make Crisis Suits, and to some extent Riptides, saturate less of the Elite slot, such that we have more room for things like the Ghostkeel and the Stealth Suits. Though that still doesn't address all of the issues Stealth Suits have, and I still think they'd just make better troop options.

Realistically many people already fielded six plus Crisis Suits, and could get away with more thanks to things like the FSE or just the body guard teams, but at least now there's more room for other elite choices. Not only that, but making one unit of six, instead of two units of three, isn't exactly always better, because it makes shooting more awkward at times, while also making return fire potentially do more damage.

It is for a few reasons.

1) It makes a Farsight Bomb 90 points cheaper (no need to use Bodyguards).

2) It alleviates the stacked Elites slot problem everyone has with Tau.

3) It makes them that much nastier for a Buffmander to join without requiring Farsight. Imagine 9 dual Missile Pod Crisis Suits with a Buffmander as part of the Hunter Contingent Not the most efficient unit as it is still fairly easy to kill (I guess use the Commander with Iridium Armor to tank somewhat?) but nonetheless hilarious when you throw Target Locks in.

I so totally addressed all of those thing, except the first one because I don't like Farsight.... Shadowsun for life!

Oh, speaking of which, did Shadowsun get any changes in the new codex?

Omission of her special stealth bodyguard team, but a rule that says stealth suits in her unit auto pass look out sir. Otherwise same.

@Tinkrr I know, just thought I would clarify why it is good for everyone.

Regarding Shadowsun, not that we've heard. She got weaker in 7th Edition (core ruleset) because of the changes to Independent Characters joining Monstrous Creatures (she used to be able to join Riptides) and because she can only join units that have Infiltrate during deployment. Of course, the Optimized Stealth Cadre means the latter one is no longer a problem

@tetrisphreak You aren't forced to!

Man, all these people bragging about committing crimes. Kids these days...

maceria wrote:
Man, all these people bragging about committing crimes. Kids these days...

I paid for my codex. It's not my fault black library allowed me to download it early.

 luke1705 wrote:
Got a hold of a copy of the leaked codex from the black library from earlier. Pretty much everything that has been leaked so far is accurate. The only thing that I noticed that was different was that the models that have the fire team special rule will always be +1 BS, regardless of who they shoot at, as long as the squad consists of 3 models. Crisis suits and broadsides do not have this special rule. The ones that do are:

Ghostkeels
Riptides
Hammerheads (not longsrike surprisingly)
Sky Rays

If you guys have any questions, I'm happy to answer them. I didn't play Tau with the previous codex, however, so if you're looking for a comparison, I'll have to actually flip back and forth to figure it out. No problem doing it - just might take a little longer

So any changes in the support systems and signature systems?
Is the heavy retribution cadre 2 units of stormsurge?
Does the ghostkeel gain infiltrate in the optimized stealth cadre?
Can you elaborate the benefit of firebase support cadre? Does all 3 unit have to target same unit?
Any changes in the seeker missiles and markerlights?
Any limitations on what support systems a ghostkeel can take?

Thanks!

 Tinkrr wrote:


Oh, speaking of which, did Shadowsun get any changes in the new codex?

Word for word the same, and same points values

The books imply we'll see another campaign book. Warzone: Monte'ka with Farsight.



Wanna bet even MORE Tau greater goodness is on the way folks? And if they let us field this much suits for default Tau what will his schtick be now? Makes me wonder if he'll get a full expansion with unique units.

I would love to see what they've been cooking.

Thats a misconception about infiltrate.
IC's without infiltrate cannot deploy with infiltrating units, however ICs with infiltrate can deploy via deepstrike or outflank. Technically the wording allows them to infiltrate units too but the order of deployment....if you call it that...has always caused issues with RAW people so nobody believes its a normal strat.
Considering the infiltrate rule says "least one model with this rule" it leads me to believe ICs are capable of giving a unit infiltrate, but like i said nobody believes it because of this so called "deployment order"

Personally i find it just another jab at tau players, since were the only ones with an infiltrating IC thats actually worth bringing. Imagine infiltrating missilesides with stealth + shroud....yeah i totally see why people think its illegal.

Im not sure if i'd ever put her in a Stealth Cadre. Shes kinda not needed in there lol

Tautastic wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Got a hold of a copy of the leaked codex from the black library from earlier. Pretty much everything that has been leaked so far is accurate. The only thing that I noticed that was different was that the models that have the fire team special rule will always be +1 BS, regardless of who they shoot at, as long as the squad consists of 3 models. Crisis suits and broadsides do not have this special rule. The ones that do are:

Ghostkeels
Riptides
Hammerheads (not longsrike surprisingly)
Sky Rays

If you guys have any questions, I'm happy to answer them. I didn't play Tau with the previous codex, however, so if you're looking for a comparison, I'll have to actually flip back and forth to figure it out. No problem doing it - just might take a little longer

So any changes in the support systems and signature systems?
Is the heavy retribution cadre 2 units of stormsurge?
Does the ghostkeel gain infiltrate in the optimized stealth cadre?
Can you elaborate the benefit of firebase support cadre? Does all 3 unit have to target same unit?
Any changes in the seeker missiles and markerlights?
Any limitations on what support systems a ghostkeel can take?

Thanks!

I can answer these based on what luchiban said.

No changes to Support Systems/Signature Systems, no obvious ones anyway.
Yes, two Stormsurge units and one Ghostkeel unit.
It does not.
If all units in a Firebase Support Cadre shoot at the same unit - which means they also get the Hunter Contingent +1 Ballistic Skill bonus if they link fire - then they get Monster Hunter and Tank Hunter.
Seeker Missiles are unchanged. Markerlights are unchanged save that they can now turn the Stormsurge' Destroyer Missiles into actual Destroyer weapons, changing the profile from S8 AP1 to S AP1.
Not that we've seen.

Another question for the codex people, is the Guardian Drone only for the Breachers or is standardized?

Caederes wrote:
@Tinkrr I know, just thought I would clarify why it is good for everyone.

Regarding Shadowsun, not that we've heard. She got weaker in 7th Edition (core ruleset) because of the changes to Independent Characters joining Monstrous Creatures (she used to be able to join Riptides) and because she can only join units that have Infiltrate during deployment. Of course, the Optimized Stealth Cadre means the latter one is no longer a problem

Really the only one I think that matters is the Buffmander being able to buff more suits, but there are those downsides still from being one ball of units. Then again I would have still given all of my Suits Target Locks, since I like throwing in some Marker Drones, to shoot at a different unit than the Suits at BS 5, thanks to the Commander D:

Shadowsun also just costs a lot of points for what she does :/.

 Gamgee wrote:
The books imply we'll see another campaign book. Warzone: Monte'ka with Farsight.



Wanna bet even MORE Tau greater goodness is on the way folks? And if they let us field this much suits for default Tau what will his schtick be now? Makes me wonder if he'll get a full expansion with unique units.

I would love to see what they've been cooking.

Hopefully melee focus suits. they all have WS3 and some kind of power weapons. That would be pretty sweet.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Another question for the codex people, is the Guardian Drone only for the Breachers or is standardized?

Caederes wrote:
@Tinkrr I know, just thought I would clarify why it is good for everyone.

Regarding Shadowsun, not that we've heard. She got weaker in 7th Edition (core ruleset) because of the changes to Independent Characters joining Monstrous Creatures (she used to be able to join Riptides) and because she can only join units that have Infiltrate during deployment. Of course, the Optimized Stealth Cadre means the latter one is no longer a problem

Really the only one I think that matters is the Buffmander being able to buff more suits, but there are those downsides still from being one ball of units. Then again I would have still given all of my Suits Target Locks, since I like throwing in some Marker Drones, to shoot at a different unit than the Suits at BS 5, thanks to the Commander D:

Shadowsun also just costs a lot of points for what she does :/.

Guardian drones for breachers and strikers only.

@ Gamgee: Does Kayon have any Tau stuff in addition to what the 'dex does?

Caederes wrote:


So basically....I can take a Hunter Cadre, get a Riptide, a Stormsurge and a Hammerhead to shoot at one unit and get +2 BS from the Hunter Contingent and Fire Team rules, or they can add to the combined shooting of the rest of the army and give them +2 BS as well?

Thankfully the +1BS for Fireteam ONLY (heh) applies to Vehicles/MCs, so models not of that type would only get +1BS, not +2.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Thats a misconception about infiltrate.
IC's without infiltrate cannot deploy with infiltrating units, however ICs with infiltrate can deploy via deepstrike or outflank. Technically the wording allows them to infiltrate units too but the order of deployment....if you call it that...has always caused issues with RAW people so nobody believes its a normal strat.
Considering the infiltrate rule says "least one model with this rule" it leads me to believe ICs are capable of giving a unit infiltrate, but like i said nobody believes it because of this so called "deployment order"

Personally i find it just another jab at tau players, since were the only ones with an infiltrating IC thats actually worth bringing. Imagine infiltrating missilesides with stealth + shroud....yeah i totally see why people think its illegal.

Im not sure if i'd ever put her in a Stealth Cadre. Shes kinda not needed in there lol

It's not really a misconception, it's clearly the rules-as-written. Of course, there's nothing stopping you from deploying Shadowsun next to a non-Infiltrating unit when she Infiltrates, she will automatically join them in her first movement phase (pray you go first or hide her). It's something to remember if you only want her for the Drone (re-roll 1s to-hit bubble) and the Stealth/Shrouded (awesome for Broadsides).

 tetrisphreak wrote:
and strikers.

Sold!

Gamgee wrote:Got my hands on both the new codex and Kayon. Excellent.

My one and only question related to Tau:
Does Kauyon have any rules, formations, cadres, characters, or contingents that are not in the new Codex? If yes, feel free to elaborate to your heart's content.
Also, if you want to be a hero to some RG and WS fans, post an image or two over in the rumors thread for Kauyon here.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
@ Gamgee: Does Kayon have any Tau stuff in addition to what the 'dex does?

Caederes wrote:


So basically....I can take a Hunter Cadre, get a Riptide, a Stormsurge and a Hammerhead to shoot at one unit and get +2 BS from the Hunter Contingent and Fire Team rules, or they can add to the combined shooting of the rest of the army and give them +2 BS as well?

Thankfully the +1BS for Fireteam ONLY (heh) applies to Vehicles/MCs, so models not of that type would only get +1BS, not +2.

Ah good stuff, still, it means you can spread it to Stormsurges and the like (they are "Monstrous Creatures with additional rules" per the Gargantuan Creature rules).

Also curious if there is any benefit Shield Drones may get for being in the same unit as a Guardian Drone.

Quite frankly since its clearly a rule designed to get people to buy 3 of these expensive models (even hammerheads are pricy, but theyre the "cheapest" of the bunch) im surprised Stormsurges dont have this rule by default.

I would still never field 3 surges just to get +1BS lol. Screw 450USD and ~1300pts for +1BS lol

 SinisterSamurai wrote:
Also curious if there is any benefit Shield Drones may get for being in the same unit as a Guardian Drone.

Nope. Just a drone with a 4++.

Tautastic wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Got a hold of a copy of the leaked codex from the black library from earlier. Pretty much everything that has been leaked so far is accurate. The only thing that I noticed that was different was that the models that have the fire team special rule will always be +1 BS, regardless of who they shoot at, as long as the squad consists of 3 models. Crisis suits and broadsides do not have this special rule. The ones that do are:

Ghostkeels
Riptides
Hammerheads (not longsrike surprisingly)
Sky Rays

If you guys have any questions, I'm happy to answer them. I didn't play Tau with the previous codex, however, so if you're looking for a comparison, I'll have to actually flip back and forth to figure it out. No problem doing it - just might take a little longer

1) So any changes in the support systems and signature systems?
2) Is the heavy retribution cadre 2 units of stormsurge?
3) Does the ghostkeel gain infiltrate in the optimized stealth cadre?
4) Can you elaborate the benefit of firebase support cadre? Does all 3 unit have to target same unit?
5) Any changes in the seeker missiles and markerlights?
6) Any limitations on what support systems a ghostkeel can take?

Thanks!

Added in numbers for clarity.

1) As far as I can tell, points are the same. They lumped the riptide, stormsurge and ghostkeel on the "pays more for upgrades" category that used to only apply to the riptide (for the stim injector and the shield generator, which the riptide could take now, but it would be 50 points, same as the stormsurge and the ghostkeel.

2) Yep. Take 6 to your heart's content. And then take 6 more if you feel like utilising this formation a second time as one of your ten auxiliary choices

3) No, just what was already rumored - +1 BS all the time with ignores cover and hitting rear facing, regardless of where they actually are. And any stealth unit within 6" of a ghostkeel from the formation also gets that

4) For the firebase support cadre, they get to fire as if they were a single unit (which is sort of weird because the entire hunter contingent gets that benefit in lieu of obsec troops). The support cadre necessitates that all of them fire, and they all get Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter. But when you do this with the normal Hunter Contingent, if at least 3 units combine their fire they get +1 BS. Both say "resolve shots as if they were a single unit" so I think I'd prefer to just have +1 BS, but YMMV.

5) Same, but the stormsurge's destroyer missile will become D if you spend a markerlight on it (1 per missile)

6) They can't take vectored retro thrusters or missile drones (which are apparently now a broadside exclusive)

I asked this earlier but didn't get a response so I feel like it bears repeating.

When you perform the Combined Fire thing, if a Stormsurge adds its shooting to the attack, the wording of the rule suggests that it can choose to shoot just one of its guns at the target and then still fire its other guns at other targets per the GMC rules. I think it's the same story as with Target Locks. Would certainly make the Stormsurge an auto-take for Hunter Contingents!

Hmm. 9 Crisis suits in a unit sounds like a fun unit to Join Shadowsun to- All Stealth+ Shroud and 3d6 JSJ!

@MajorWesJanson
Oh god I didn't even think of that, jesus christ