Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Is Longstrike still a thing in the new codex? If so, perhaps Hammerheads are not completely worthless. I just so happen to have all the models I need to run a minimum Hunter Cadre, so for future purchases I just need to get some stuff to make one or more of the Auxiliaries (I'm thinking Optimized Stealth Cadre since I love the new Ghostkeel model). Also, can Crisis suits take two Missile Pods any more? I noticed the new Crisis team box only comes with three (maybe that is just GW trying to make us buy more of them to get enough weapons ). Sorry if these questions have already been answered, I just didn't feel like fishing through pages and pages of posts to find them.

Yes Longstrike is still in the codex and he is MUCH better thanks to the Combined Fire rule. He gives his tank hunter ability to any other unit that shoots along with him, aka 3 hammerheads (1 with long strike) all firing at the same target get BS5 (BS6 for longstirke) and Tank Hunter

And yes, double weapons on crisis are still allowed

In regards to the Tau rule. It specifies that they count as one unit. So they gain the benefits of the buffmander's abilities.

"Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their firepower to the attack. These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit–this includes the use of Marker Light abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."

If it only counted markerlights and the +1BS as the bonuses it would say that. It doesn't. It says they have to shoot at the same target and if they do they count as a unit for the shooting attack. So thus they get the rules since they are making a shooting attack as a single unit.

I've seen people say but they aren't in coherency ect. Well that's a red herring argument. They are counted as a single unit for shooting, but nothing says they have to be in coherency. That's a dead end way to look at this. It has nothing to do with the rules themselves.

I've also seen people say the "as if" doesn't mean "as/is" argument. Well that's wrong grammatically because as if does in fact mean as, but as if makes it a temporary usage of "as" specified by the rule hence the "as if" they are a unit. So that argument is out simply on looking at the grammar behind it.

"Counted as a unit for shooting" is not the same as "They are a unit" so coherency means nothing because that literally only comes into play in the movement phase. You can get shot out of coherency and you do nothing about it until the movement phase.

This game is loaded with "counts as" without actually being ruled as it so it only works for a specific part of that ruling, in this case the "unit shooting" part of a unit while ignoring the rest.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
"Counted as a unit for shooting" is not the same as "They are a unit" so coherency means nothing because that literally only comes into play in the movement phase. You can get shot out of coherency and you do nothing about it until the movement phase.

This game is loaded with "counts as" without actually being ruled as it so it only works for a specific part of that ruling, in this case the "unit shooting" part of a unit while ignoring the rest.

Then they would specify that, but they left it open to more open interpretations for some reason. Meaning something else must get shared. Why not simply say "they all make shooting attacks and can use the same marker lights and get +1BS if three or more shoot" So what else could it be? Certainly not the coherency stuff. They are counting as a unit for shooting. Counting as a unit for shooting, which makes them benefit from unit rules that affect shooting. Buffmander's rules specify they affect the unit he is in. Nothing in the rule says they won't benefit also benefit from his buffs or shared special rules like monster hunter from a PEN chip.

The way the rule is written defeats that proposition because they left it more open when it could have easily been a simple clear cut effect. They list ML's as examples of effects that are shared as well. So what else could be shared if your interpretation is correct? Why word it like that at all? I suppose human error, but that seems unlikely given how well it meshes with existing codex synergies. It seems like the intent was to allow the sharing of effects like that.

Besides it's not like the whole army has those effects all the time. Only the units that join in and only on one target. So I have to decide between splitting my fire up or firing at a deathstar. Seems very balanced given the crazy meta we live in.

Its quite clear cut it does not work that way.

Only resolve the shot. not turn momentarily into one unit. the game brakes way too hand if you try it the other way around (on the mechanical level, let alone balance)

People arguing the semantics... YOU DO BECOME ONE UNIT FOR SHOOTING PURPOSES. Its as simple as that. Just because you don't want the rules to say that doesn't mean thats exactly what it says.

The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?

 Fishboy wrote:
The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?

The rule says the following, and is actually quite clear:

... If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels, and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this Formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule, and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting phase...

In the Vehicle wargear section is there a way to get our skimmers to shoot as fast (as in the past) or a way to let them split their fire of their weapons (like there used to)?

It was the loss of these things that really hurt hammerheads and devilfish.

 Jayden63 wrote:
In the Vehicle wargear section is there a way to get our skimmers to shoot as fast (as in the past) or a way to let them split their fire of their weapons (like there used to)?

It was the loss of these things that really hurt hammerheads and devilfish.

Sadly no. I was also hoping for vehicle VT, but that also did not happen.

 Jayden63 wrote:
In the Vehicle wargear section is there a way to get our skimmers to shoot as fast (as in the past) or a way to let them split their fire of their weapons (like there used to)?

It was the loss of these things that really hurt hammerheads and devilfish.

Nope. Still no multi-trackers or target locks for vehicles.

So the secondary weapons on hammerheads remain almost useless.

On the other hand one of the hunter cadre rules allows vehicles taken as part of the cadre to move flat out and then fire as long as they start their shooting phase within 12" of the commander or fireblade. So that's kinda like being fast, ish.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?

The rule says the following, and is actually quite clear:

... If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels, and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this Formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule, and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting phase...

Thanks Ghaz. I don't have the codex so am going on rumors still and you putting the wording up helps a lot. It is also my understanding that units with the MC rule gaine +1 BS if there are three MC in the unit (I think it is called fire support). I have not seen anyone expound on this rule so I am hunting for details and trying to see if it stacks with the formation rules.

 Fishboy wrote:
The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?

No, that's not how the rule works. However, both the fire support and wall of mirrors rule should apply, giving the OSF +2 BS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fishboy wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?

The rule says the following, and is actually quite clear:

... If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels, and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this Formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule, and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting phase...

Thanks Ghaz. I don't have the codex so am going on rumors still and you putting the wording up helps a lot. It is also my understanding that units with the MC rule gaine +1 BS if there are three MC in the unit (I think it is called fire support). I have not seen anyone expound on this rule so I am hunting for details and trying to see if it stacks with the formation rules.

Nope. The only way to gain +1 BS is to have 3 or more whole units shooting at a single target, or the optimised stealth Cadre rule.

 McNinja wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?

The rule says the following, and is actually quite clear:

... If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels, and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this Formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule, and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting phase...

Thanks Ghaz. I don't have the codex so am going on rumors still and you putting the wording up helps a lot. It is also my understanding that units with the MC rule gaine +1 BS if there are three MC in the unit (I think it is called fire support). I have not seen anyone expound on this rule so I am hunting for details and trying to see if it stacks with the formation rules.

Nope. The only way to gain +1 BS is to have 3 or more whole units shooting at a single target, or the optimised stealth Cadre rule.

Err, no. If a unit has 1 model with the Fire Team special rule and has 3+ vehicles/MC all vehicles and MCs in the unit get +1BS as well. It does stack with the formation rules.
Riptides, Ghostkeels, Hammerheads and Skyrays are the only models that have it though, IIRC.

 McNinja wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?

No, that's not how the rule works. However, both the fire support and wall of mirrors rule should apply, giving the OSF +2 BS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fishboy wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?

The rule says the following, and is actually quite clear:

... If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels, and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this Formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule, and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting phase...

Thanks Ghaz. I don't have the codex so am going on rumors still and you putting the wording up helps a lot. It is also my understanding that units with the MC rule gaine +1 BS if there are three MC in the unit (I think it is called fire support). I have not seen anyone expound on this rule so I am hunting for details and trying to see if it stacks with the formation rules.

Nope. The only way to gain +1 BS is to have 3 or more whole units shooting at a single target, or the optimised stealth Cadre rule.

The +1 BS and the Ignores cover calls out Ghostkeels and stealth teams within 6" of the ghostkeels, so yes they do get +1 bs all the time. In fact a combined fire, fire team 3 man ghostkeel unit will be bs6 ignores cover without a single markerlight token in this formation.

 tetrisphreak wrote:


The +1 BS and the Ignores cover calls out Ghostkeels and stealth teams within 6" of the ghostkeels, so yes they do get +1 bs all the time. In fact a combined fire, fire team 3 man ghostkeel unit will be bs6 ignores cover without a single markerlight token in this formation.

THIS - SO MUCH THIS!!!

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:


The +1 BS and the Ignores cover calls out Ghostkeels and stealth teams within 6" of the ghostkeels, so yes they do get +1 bs all the time. In fact a combined fire, fire team 3 man ghostkeel unit will be bs6 ignores cover without a single markerlight token in this formation.

THIS - SO MUCH THIS!!!

Sounds fair and balanced ..oh wait..........

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Spoiler:

 Vash108 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
The Codex specifically states Drones do not prevent a character from joining another unit. However if the Character dies the drones stay in that unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit...Ninja posters

Can a IC join a group of Drones do they form one unit to were you can then join it to another unit?

Only drones purchased as wargear allow the characters to drag them along into other units. Same as fenrisian wolves in the space wolves codex.

Drone units bought alone (ie from their dataslate in the fast attack slot or a formation) are their own unit.

Thanks, I was curious if I could do anything extra with the drones that come with O'Ralai. I Just had him leave that unit do he doesn't get the toughness loss and hide him in terrain.

Poor R'Alai has as special rule that prevents him from joining any units whatsoever. Until one of his piddly drones dies his unit is majority T4.

Yeah I just have him leave the drones behind. Wish I could have someone else Scoop them up.

Theres no rule that says you can do that either. he's stuck with them until they die.

I will have to pose that question to FW. Will update if I get an answer.

That works. I"m going by the rule that states drones as wargear always accompany the suit that bought them. As it reads from the 7e book : "Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards. they are unable to leave their unit and must maintain unit coherency with their unit at all times. ... Independent characters who have taken drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units" (except r'alai - my addition) ... it goes on but basically the drones always follow the character that bought them.

Just got my answer from FW posting as an update

He may leave his Drone unit (there was a typo in his rules profile and he should be an Independent Character rather than a Character).

 Vash108 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Spoiler:

 Vash108 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
The Codex specifically states Drones do not prevent a character from joining another unit. However if the Character dies the drones stay in that unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit...Ninja posters

Can a IC join a group of Drones do they form one unit to were you can then join it to another unit?

Only drones purchased as wargear allow the characters to drag them along into other units. Same as fenrisian wolves in the space wolves codex.

Drone units bought alone (ie from their dataslate in the fast attack slot or a formation) are their own unit.

Thanks, I was curious if I could do anything extra with the drones that come with O'Ralai. I Just had him leave that unit do he doesn't get the toughness loss and hide him in terrain.

Poor R'Alai has as special rule that prevents him from joining any units whatsoever. Until one of his piddly drones dies his unit is majority T4.

Yeah I just have him leave the drones behind. Wish I could have someone else Scoop them up.

Theres no rule that says you can do that either. he's stuck with them until they die.

I will have to pose that question to FW. Will update if I get an answer.

That works. I"m going by the rule that states drones as wargear always accompany the suit that bought them. As it reads from the 7e book : "Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards. they are unable to leave their unit and must maintain unit coherency with their unit at all times. ... Independent characters who have taken drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units" (except r'alai - my addition) ... it goes on but basically the drones always follow the character that bought them.

Just got my answer from FW posting as an update

He may leave his Drone unit (there was a typo in his rules profile and he should be an Independent Character rather than a Character).

Alrighty. Interesting.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:


The +1 BS and the Ignores cover calls out Ghostkeels and stealth teams within 6" of the ghostkeels, so yes they do get +1 bs all the time. In fact a combined fire, fire team 3 man ghostkeel unit will be bs6 ignores cover without a single markerlight token in this formation.

THIS - SO MUCH THIS!!!

Okay now you see where I am going with this heh. Next question is do the bonuses to BS work with snap shooting (i.e. Flyers, over watch, etc)?

 Fishboy wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:


The +1 BS and the Ignores cover calls out Ghostkeels and stealth teams within 6" of the ghostkeels, so yes they do get +1 bs all the time. In fact a combined fire, fire team 3 man ghostkeel unit will be bs6 ignores cover without a single markerlight token in this formation.

THIS - SO MUCH THIS!!!

Okay now you see where I am going with this heh. Next question is do the bonuses to BS work with snap shooting (i.e. Flyers, over watch, etc)?

nope

 Fishboy wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:


The +1 BS and the Ignores cover calls out Ghostkeels and stealth teams within 6" of the ghostkeels, so yes they do get +1 bs all the time. In fact a combined fire, fire team 3 man ghostkeel unit will be bs6 ignores cover without a single markerlight token in this formation.

THIS - SO MUCH THIS!!!

Okay now you see where I am going with this heh. Next question is do the bonuses to BS work with snap shooting (i.e. Flyers, over watch, etc)?

No, because snap shot is a fixed value modifier (BS 1) and in order of operations, fixed value modifiers are applied last. Marker Lights are an exception because they state that they alter snap shots, changing the order of operations specifically.

Snapshots are unmodified by anything that doesnt specifically state it modifies it, i.e. markerlights. Overwatch the same way, which Tau are not the only ones that have rules for that one.

General codex thoughts?

ShaneMarsh wrote:
General codex thoughts?

I think the Tau could easily be one of the best factions in the game. A few of our formations will see tournament play and the majority of them are casual viable easily. Only one is disappointing. Other than that the good units got great and the bad units stayed the same. Also a single Stormsurge being supported will be a nightmare for your opponents.

I think the theme of this codex was "3". Many of our new special/formation rules involves three's now. It's almost making me think of a temp or something to build armies around.

So, (sorry if I missed this), could Coldstar join some Remoras?

 Gamgee wrote:

ShaneMarsh wrote:
General codex thoughts?

I think the Tau could easily be one of the best factions in the game. A few of our formations will see tournament play and the majority of them are casual viable easily. Only one is disappointing. Other than that the good units got great and the bad units stayed the same. Also a single Stormsurge being supported will be a nightmare for your opponents.

I think the theme of this codex was "3". Many of our new special/formation rules involves three's now. It's almost making me think of a temp or something to build armies around.

Sounds good. Outside of new units/rules. how is it lore wise?

 agnosto wrote:
So, (sorry if I missed this), could Coldstar join some Remoras?

As long as they aren't Monstrous creatures and are capable of at least moving 12", then yes.

The issue with the coldstar is that he can be grounded easily, and if he's grounded, he's dead.

 McNinja wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
So, (sorry if I missed this), could Coldstar join some Remoras?

As long as they aren't Monstrous creatures and are capable of at least moving 12", then yes.

The issue with the coldstar is that he can be grounded easily, and if he's grounded, he's dead.

Or as long as they're not vehicles (which I believe they were back in Imperial Armour Aeronautica).

Yeah i think Remoras are considered a vehicle. Not sure why, they are by no means big enough to have an armor value like a vehicle - i'd expect them to be the same as the Coldstar which is an FMC in movement only.

Have to admit, i wish the Coldstar was either immune to grounding tests or took reduced strength so he didnt have a stupendous faceplant of death. Despite being a hilarious mental image.