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2015/06/06 00:11:42
Subject: Re:Terminators: Will they be Worth Taking?
Although I only began playing 40k "officially" in 6th ed, I've been following the game since 3rd, and I'm also decently informed about what was going on during 2nd and even Rogue Trader (have the rulebooks and supplements, etc.). Honestly, when I first checked the grav-weapons rules, I thought "wow, this gak better be very expensive and prohibitive". Grav-weapons have everything. Enough range to, if well positioned, be a threat to almost anything over a table. Rolls to wound on the armor value of the target. AP2. Glances vehicles on 6s. And Salvo 2/3 (cannons are actually 3/5 lol). And Concussive to top the cake. Being salvo 2/3 actually makes them great against even the best armoured vehicles, because you will have enough fire volume to ensure some 6s. The specific to wound mechanic, when coupled with AP2, is simply overkill. Yeah, little effective against lightly armored targets... pity marine armies already have boltguns everywhere to deal with those kind of opponents.
In a game where jacks-of-all-trades have been increasingly outshadowed and outperformed by specialist weapons and units, Grav-weapons simply are the jack-of-all-trades who outperform most specialists. Same AP as plasma but no gets hot!, even if slightly less range. Way better than melta at frying heavy armored targets, and also useful against any kind of vehicle. Higher volume of fire than lasguns, while having the potential to pack the same punch as a lascannon against targets like, precisely, Terminators.
In short, cheese designed to sell a lot of Centurion models.
When grav first came out, pretty much thought the same thing as you. Now, with the arms race, now it's no longer cheese; it's just a good weapon, and certainly no longer Centurion specific (it's probably just a regular Heavy weapon now in C:SM 7e). AdMech have Arc, Torsion, and Heavy Grav; Eldar have Distortion; Necron have Gauss... The way the game has gone, each faction has its one "great" weapon type, and grav has just turned into the Space Marines' signature weapon. Gone are the days when lascanons and multilasers rule the table; Now it's S*, or Rending, or Ignore Jink or other special rules that can bypass the system of a bazillion cover/saves on the really durable units.
Though, if you go far enough back, when the game started, there were virus grenades, vortex weapons, the original distortion cannons, and conversion beamers that were far more powerful than even the best stuff today. If they let tactical squads take conversion beamers and d-cannons again, and sergeants take vortex grenades, nobody would ever field a superheavy Nor would most MSU armies work, because most of those factions are very susceptible to virus. I remember when half an IG army could be wiped out by a spectacularly bad roll off of 1 grenade.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/06/06 00:12:55
VarianceHammer wrote: They need some form of adjustment - 2 wounds, T5 or some such. They're just too fragile at the moment.
See if they did something like this or even just keep them the same but lower there point cost and gave them access to more weaponry then I think that would go a long way to fix them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/06 00:47:41
They won't be changing for codex marines beyond cost and inclusion of an adjusted strike force ultra.
The dark Angels will probably get some significant changes to their terminators though.
Tbh there's going to be even less reason to take them if the centurion changes are rumoured true. S10 siege drills basically makes the thunder nator in all his majesty a useless unit for cc. It was at least fun to god around with terminators in the last am codex because you could be spontaneous with them and enemies expecting say white scar bikes wouldn't be prepared for a terminator hit team in a raider or something to that effect.
But if centurions get s10 siege drill it's not even going to be practical to take terminators again!!
Stupid centurions stealing all our God damn jobs..... *wanders off mumbling and brooding*.
DA army: 3500pts,
admech army: 600pts
ravenguard: 565 pts
No. Terminators will get shart on again. To combat the tide of MCs falling into the codexs of every army out there, there was a belief that terminators would get buffed 2 years ago. It was the termis traditional role, & it absolutely made sense that terminators would once again step up to that role. Instead: Centurions. fething lame.
People getting their hopes up again are just setting themselves up for a huge disappointment. We'll get formations, & people will get tricked into believing termis are worth it. They'll plop down 25 termis with Stubborn & Fear & 1d6 deepstrike. Then while in double tap range got blasted off the board. Then theyll remember that to improve termis would take new models and disrupt termi units in a dozen other codexes.
Although I only began playing 40k "officially" in 6th ed, I've been following the game since 3rd, and I'm also decently informed about what was going on during 2nd and even Rogue Trader (have the rulebooks and supplements, etc.). Honestly, when I first checked the grav-weapons rules, I thought "wow, this gak better be very expensive and prohibitive". Grav-weapons have everything. Enough range to, if well positioned, be a threat to almost anything over a table. Rolls to wound on the armor value of the target. AP2. Glances vehicles on 6s. And Salvo 2/3 (cannons are actually 3/5 lol). And Concussive to top the cake. Being salvo 2/3 actually makes them great against even the best armoured vehicles, because you will have enough fire volume to ensure some 6s. The specific to wound mechanic, when coupled with AP2, is simply overkill. Yeah, little effective against lightly armored targets... pity marine armies already have boltguns everywhere to deal with those kind of opponents.
In a game where jacks-of-all-trades have been increasingly outshadowed and outperformed by specialist weapons and units, Grav-weapons simply are the jack-of-all-trades who outperform most specialists. Same AP as plasma but no gets hot!, even if slightly less range. Way better than melta at frying heavy armored targets, and also useful against any kind of vehicle. Higher volume of fire than lasguns, while having the potential to pack the same punch as a lascannon against targets like, precisely, Terminators.
In short, cheese designed to sell a lot of Centurion models.
When grav first came out, pretty much thought the same thing as you. Now, with the arms race, now it's no longer cheese; it's just a good weapon, and certainly no longer Centurion specific (it's probably just a regular Heavy weapon now in C:SM 7e). AdMech have Arc, Torsion, and Heavy Grav; Eldar have Distortion; Necron have Gauss... The way the game has gone, each faction has its one "great" weapon type, and grav has just turned into the Space Marines' signature weapon. Gone are the days when lascanons and multilasers rule the table; Now it's S*, or Rending, or Ignore Jink or other special rules that can bypass the system of a bazillion cover/saves on the really durable units.
Though, if you go far enough back, when the game started, there were virus grenades, vortex weapons, the original distortion cannons, and conversion beamers that were far more powerful than even the best stuff today. If they let tactical squads take conversion beamers and d-cannons again, and sergeants take vortex grenades, nobody would ever field a superheavy Nor would most MSU armies work, because most of those factions are very susceptible to virus. I remember when half an IG army could be wiped out by a spectacularly bad roll off of 1 grenade.
True, but back then armies were literally half the size of what they are now, for the same number of points!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/06 14:27:08
ionusx wrote: They won't be changing for codex marines beyond cost and inclusion of an adjusted strike force ultra.
The dark Angels will probably get some significant changes to their terminators though.
Tbh there's going to be even less reason to take them if the centurion changes are rumoured true. S10 siege drills basically makes the thunder nator in all his majesty a useless unit for cc. It was at least fun to god around with terminators in the last am codex because you could be spontaneous with them and enemies expecting say white scar bikes wouldn't be prepared for a terminator hit team in a raider or something to that effect.
But if centurions get s10 siege drill it's not even going to be practical to take terminators again!!
Stupid centurions stealing all our God damn jobs..... *wanders off mumbling and brooding*.
Your hope that deathwing will get anything more than they already have is cute. They'll get to be a core formation in the dark Angels codex, And be stuck in elites since anything that changes the foc is gone. The current deathwing assault bonuses will be the formation bonuses. If you are lucky, they might give them fear or something.
Meanwhile, you'll be busy ripping the plasma off your Ravenwing bikers to put Grav guns on :p!
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2015/06/06 14:38:43
Subject: Re:Terminators: Will they be Worth Taking?
In my opinion they is nothing cooler than terminators in the 40k universe. When I play I just picture them sitting in the land raider waiting for those doors to open and charge whatever unit I want dead.
I know they aren't the best but i think people also just judge them by what everyone says. I always take them, every game I play no matter what. And to this day I've never played anyone that said, "good thing you brought all those terminators cuz you know they suck they'll die turn one cuz I'm just going to shoot at them." It's actually the opposite I always hear a "wow how am I going to deal with all those terminators."
I hope they get a point reduction cuz it will mean ill be able to take more.
That's my take on terminators.(I also play DA so I'm a terminator fanboy)
Nightlord1987 wrote: Th ey haven't changed terminators for SW and BA, so why act surprised that the new Codex will leave them as is?
That's one of the problems with GW releasing all the Space Marines at very different times. I reckon they should have aimed to release all the Space Marine codices and supplements in a 2 to 3 month window so that they could make some sweeping changes like upping the toughness or wounds of Terminators.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Th ey haven't changed terminators for SW and BA, so why act surprised that the new Codex will leave them as is?
Well they could just ignore those codexes and do new rules - wouldn't be the first time.
However we have seen that tac Squads are basically the same - they certainly didnt get the Eldar treatment (boost everything and/or drop the points) so termiantors likely the same.
I don't know why they don't go back to combined squads with weapons to suit, maybe give them FNP..........
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Yeah they seem to be perfectly fine making random tinkering changes to xenos, but whoever is in charge of marines design is in a corner holding old codices to his chest shouting "I'll never change them!!"
Talys wrote: When grav first came out, pretty much thought the same thing as you. Now, with the arms race, now it's no longer cheese; it's just a good weapon, and certainly no longer Centurion specific (it's probably just a regular Heavy weapon now in C:SM 7e). AdMech have Arc, Torsion, and Heavy Grav; Eldar have Distortion; Necron have Gauss... The way the game has gone, each faction has its one "great" weapon type, and grav has just turned into the Space Marines' signature weapon. Gone are the days when lascanons and multilasers rule the table; Now it's S*, or Rending, or Ignore Jink or other special rules that can bypass the system of a bazillion cover/saves on the really durable units.
The fact that grav-weapons can no longer be considered pure cheese says a lot about how insane the power creep has been throughout 6ed and post-Necron 7ed.
Though, if you go far enough back, when the game started, there were virus grenades, vortex weapons, the original distortion cannons, and conversion beamers that were far more powerful than even the best stuff today. If they let tactical squads take conversion beamers and d-cannons again, and sergeants take vortex grenades, nobody would ever field a superheavy Nor would most MSU armies work, because most of those factions are very susceptible to virus. I remember when half an IG army could be wiped out by a spectacularly bad roll off of 1 grenade.
Both RT and 2ed had some nasty, nasty things. Supposedly those nasty things were a thing of the past, inevitable results of a young game still being developed and polished. Two decades later, 40k seems eager to run back straight to square one. Only in a way less imaginative and way more expensive fashion.
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
sangheili wrote: In my opinion they is nothing cooler than terminators in the 40k universe. When I play I just picture them sitting in the land raider waiting for those doors to open and charge whatever unit I want dead.
I know they aren't the best but i think people also just judge them by what everyone says. I always take them, every game I play no matter what. And to this day I've never played anyone that said, "good thing you brought all those terminators cuz you know they suck they'll die turn one cuz I'm just going to shoot at them." It's actually the opposite I always hear a "wow how am I going to deal with all those terminators."
I hope they get a point reduction cuz it will mean ill be able to take more.
That's my take on terminators.(I also play DA so I'm a terminator fanboy)
I have a total different look on terminators. i see the battle raging all around and then a disturbance in the air as terminators teleport into the thick of the battle and unleash hell. The trouble is, an apocalyptic battlefield (which 40K is becoming) is no place for terminators anymore. There is nothing inherently wrong with them, except an over-inflated points cost. where every model is a decked out sgt) It's still a space marine stat wise, add terminator armour (10pts), SB (5pts), powerfist (15pts) and that gives you 44pts. Really hard to argue with it. I would allow a hvy weapon to be taken for every 5 terminators AND allow a cyclone addition (since this does not replace SB).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/06 21:39:59
2015/06/07 00:35:48
Subject: Re:Terminators: Will they be Worth Taking?
Nope, GW won't fix them and refuses to prove them accordingly, multiple additions in a row and TAC Termies are still 40pts. Everything has gotten cheaper, weapons deadlier, and Termies got left behind. GW already had their chance to appropriately cost Terminators in 7th, and they refused. Though, if they did, it'd just be another kick in the sack for BA players.
Red Marine wrote: Arghhh! I cant resist! I really, really wish they'd make our beloved terminators worth while again. So heres what i want/believe will happen
-2 heavy weapons per 5 men
-points reduced to 33 a piece
- the sergeant allowed to take any cc weapons he wants
My dream would be to see all 3 improvements, but id say only 1 of those is likely. And no changes at all are as likely as one change.
I have a new drinking game. Take a drink every time GW disappoints you in some way.
Good luck.
deathwing terminators have the most chances to be better since they are different. Due to the BA codex, I really can't see them being adjusted in C:SM. Even Deathwing might have to rely on formation bonuses to get better, maybe a slight points drop, but hoping for extra hvy weapons may be too much.
2015/06/07 01:30:24
Subject: Re:Terminators: Will they be Worth Taking?
Terminators frustrate me. They seem so good and for a 5 man squad at 250 points they better be. Unfortunately, I've never had them come close to paying for themselves. Without SS's and an abundance of AP2 weapons on the board, terminator armor just isn't good enough. This only becomes worse when deepstriking. You have to sit there for one turn getting blasted, then on your turn you take overwatch wounds, and then combat happens. I like them on paper but I don't run them anymore.
There is something I haven't tried yet that I would like to. I can load up to 8 of them in a stormwolf drop them on a target and assault the same turn. It sounds like a good plan but I haven't convinced myself to try it yet.
Terminator Armor should come with Conversion Fields as standard instead of their normal Invulnerable Save.
Forcing a Blind test on whatever is shooting them on Overwatch or when they're footslogging can make a BIG difference, as I've learned with my Skitarii(where I have put a Conversion Field on every squad leader).
2015/06/07 15:34:56
Subject: Re:Terminators: Will they be Worth Taking?
It's a damn shame about Terminators. Iconic, great to paint, and according to the background, good enough to take down a Chaos Titan.
You would think that something wearing the best, and most rarest armour in the Imperium, would have a few more tricks up its sleeve.
Damn GW's poor game balance.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I want them to combine Terminators and Centurions into a single unit. And get rid of the god-awful Centurion russian nesting doll armor. Basically I just want Centurions that look like Terminators but also have a 5++.
Deathwing terminators could be improved if they created more watchers inthe dark as upgrades. There is already the adamantium will one for knights, but maybe all sqds should have access. Bump the lionhelm into this category..4+ invuln. Maybe a few extras.
Let's just make a worldwide rule that it's acceptable to field termies as centurions or sth heh.
sangheili wrote: In my opinion they is nothing cooler than terminators in the 40k universe. When I play I just picture them sitting in the land raider waiting for those doors to open and charge whatever unit I want dead.
I know they aren't the best but i think people also just judge them by what everyone says. I always take them, every game I play no matter what. And to this day I've never played anyone that said, "good thing you brought all those terminators cuz you know they suck they'll die turn one cuz I'm just going to shoot at them." It's actually the opposite I always hear a "wow how am I going to deal with all those terminators."
I hope they get a point reduction cuz it will mean ill be able to take more.
That's my take on terminators.(I also play DA so I'm a terminator fanboy)
Im actualy happy seeing terminators on the other end of the table, the more the better. Almost as happy as seeing tac marines.
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
Kanluwen wrote: Terminator Armor should come with Conversion Fields as standard instead of their normal Invulnerable Save.
Forcing a Blind test on whatever is shooting them on Overwatch or when they're footslogging can make a BIG difference, as I've learned with my Skitarii(where I have put a Conversion Field on every squad leader).
I went through the pain the butt that conversion field flash blinding caused in 2ed, I never want to see those rules again.
Nor would most 
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