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Hey mates, with the new SM Codex on the Horizon, I am starting to get the itch again to run a pure Terminator Army as they have always been one of my favorite units, however never have gone that route due to them being extremely overpriced and limits to there weaponry. That being said, while only the GK's and the Deathwing have access to pure Terminator Formations/Detachments, do you see or have you heard anything about Terminators getting an upgrade or the possibility of a new formation for them? Appreciate the feedback.

It would be cool if ultramarine terminators got 2 heavy grav cannons in 5 man terminator squads. With some nice formation allowing them to drop first turn or get re-rolls.

They aren't getting a new kit, so their rules probably aren't changing.

Apparently, you'll find a 1st Company formation in the Blood Oath book exclusive to Warhammer World. Some scans are currently on Faeit212, and IIRC, we're talking about :

1 Captain
1 Chaplain or Librarian
10 Squads of the following (in any combination)
Sternguard, Vanguard, Assault and Tac Termies,
3 Venerable Dreadnoughts.

Don't remember bonuses but I guess that could do the trick for you.

There is evidently a formation -- Strike Force Ultra, all terminators and their transports.

There's also rumors of vehicle squadrons floating around. If something good happens for land raiders it could indirectly help termis, especially of the assault variety.

If you look at the 1-click, 0-saveings bundle for the 1st company task force, the big picture shows 5 man terminator squads with both AsCs and CMLs. The individual squad pics are the old ones with one heavy weapon. Is this a rules change where we will be able to field 2 heavies in 5 man squads, or just the web monkeys doing copy/pasta errors? We’ll find out in a week. Or less, if the leaks pick up.

Terminators are not "extremely overpriced". TH/SS terminators are still one of the best units in the entire meta, let alone codex. Stormbolter terminators are mid-tier, and lightning claw terminators could do with a 5 point sink.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Terminators are not "extremely overpriced". TH/SS terminators are still one of the best units in the entire meta, let alone codex. Stormbolter terminators are mid-tier, and lightning claw terminators could do with a 5 point sink.

I must disagree with you. I don't think TH/SS are "one of the best units in the entire meta". I don't even think they're close, anymore, though I'd say, "they're the best terminator units in the current meta". Even then, they compete with Deathwing Knights, which also aren't superb.

You can't get to your target quickly, you can't move around the board with any reliability, they are only moderately durable, can generally only target/kill 1 unit a round, they can be tarpitted and they have no range at all. And they aren't great enough to bolt another few hundred points on to make a deathstar.

Units that are easily better --

- Thunderwolf Cavalry, Sanguinary Guard, and Death Company are all very killy that also have great mobility
- For the points, Grav Centurions are infinitely more versatile. They can killl more stuff, have range, and can combine with other units for an ideal deathstar, while assault terminators can't
- For units with poor mobility, Wraithguard do WAY more damage
- Imperial Knights and Wraithknights are just.... better
- Eldar Windriders
- Necron Wraiths
- Nemesis Dreadknight

I mean, the list could go on and on.

Terminators in general are overpriced because you get powerfists and storm bolters shoved down your throat (both of which suck). Relentless on Terminator armor is cool, except in a squad, only 1 model really benefits from it. They also can't make sweeping advances, which is sucky.

Really, Terminators need to be as feared as Wraithguard. Without giving them D (oh, please no...), the solution would be to allow every model to take heavy weapons, because then it would be worthwhile to tack a librarian onto them and buff them. And since Devastators and Centurions get grav, which is a zillion times better than any weapon a Terminator gets, they should too! Right now, if you see tactical terminators, you can pretty much ignore them, because other than walking up to a vehicle and smacking it with powerfists (if it ever gets there), they're as scary as a tactical squad. If you see TH/SS, you can just tarpit them or crawl out of range or dakka them to death.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Terminators are not "extremely overpriced". TH/SS terminators are still one of the best units in the entire meta, let alone codex. Stormbolter terminators are mid-tier, and lightning claw terminators could do with a 5 point sink.

As far as the competitive scene goes, no. Hammernators, the best terminators, are passable in lgs games, but are still fishes out of water in larger tournaments. The other terminator load outs are hilariously hopeless.

I can't imagine a meta where Hammernators are considered better than thunderfires, gravcents, bikers, shield eternal chapter masters, and drop pod strike forces, but it must be fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ironwolf45 wrote:
Hey mates, with the new SM Codex on the Horizon, I am starting to get the itch again to run a pure Terminator Army as they have always been one of my favorite units, however never have gone that route due to them being extremely overpriced and limits to there weaponry. That being said, while only the GK's and the Deathwing have access to pure Terminator Formations/Detachments, do you see or have you heard anything about Terminators getting an upgrade or the possibility of a new formation for them? Appreciate the feedback.

BA also have a 1st company detachment and formation. Both reduce their deep strike scatter by d6 and give rerollable reserves. The formation adds in 1st turn reserve rolls. (Although you have to take 10 squads of terminators/veterans, so don't plan on it in typical sized games.)

I love termies as well, but thanks to GW knowing virtually nothing about game design, they are terrible. Only hammers make it to having a C- grade.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Terminators are not "extremely overpriced". TH/SS terminators are still one of the best units in the entire meta, let alone codex. Stormbolter terminators are mid-tier, and lightning claw terminators could do with a 5 point sink.

As far as the competitive scene goes, no. Hammernators, the best terminators, are passable in lgs games, but are still fishes out of water in larger tournaments. The other terminator load outs are hilariously hopeless.

I can't imagine a meta where Hammernators are considered better than thunderfires, gravcents, bikers, shield eternal chapter masters, and drop pod strike forces, but it must be fun.

I'm talking about a unit that has reasonable chances of taking out the most dangerous unit your opponent has, and at the same time being tough on their own.

Gravcents can deal similar amounts of damage, but 1) they arent nearly as mobile, 2) their effectivity drastically decreases against units with worse saves 3), they cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag in close combat and 4) they arent nearly as resilient.

TFCs are good horde killers but otherwise meh

Bikers arent anything special.

Smashfether Chapter Masters on bikes are obviously great

Thunderwolf Cavalry are probably the only real competitor here

 Sir Arun wrote:
Terminators are not "extremely overpriced". TH/SS terminators are still one of the best units in the entire meta, let alone codex. Stormbolter terminators are mid-tier, and lightning claw terminators could do with a 5 point sink.

and yet, when I am shooting with my skitarii or tau with just a bunch of shots, there is nothing I would like to see the enemy waste points fielding more. They drown in basic guns and are super overpriced. Mabye YOUR meta is all monstrous creatures and lascannons, but not mine.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Arun wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Terminators are not "extremely overpriced". TH/SS terminators are still one of the best units in the entire meta, let alone codex. Stormbolter terminators are mid-tier, and lightning claw terminators could do with a 5 point sink.

As far as the competitive scene goes, no. Hammernators, the best terminators, are passable in lgs games, but are still fishes out of water in larger tournaments. The other terminator load outs are hilariously hopeless.

I can't imagine a meta where Hammernators are considered better than thunderfires, gravcents, bikers, shield eternal chapter masters, and drop pod strike forces, but it must be fun.

I'm talking about a unit that has reasonable chances of taking out the most dangerous unit your opponent has, and at the same time being tough on their own.

Gravcents can deal similar amounts of damage, but 1) they arent nearly as mobile, 2) their effectivity drastically decreases against units with worse saves 3), they cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag in close combat and 4) they arent nearly as resilient.

TFCs are good horde killers but otherwise meh

Bikers arent anything special.

Smashfether Chapter Masters on bikes are obviously great

Thunderwolf Cavalry are probably the only real competitor here

first grav cents when invested in, tend to be MORE mobile, through things like allying in draigo for portals, or tiggy and such. I would rather charge 5 initiative 1 terminators with my meganobz than draigo and grav centurions. Their effectiveness does not decrease with worse saves, because that is when their hurricane bolters shine. 18 twin linked str 4 ap 5 shots with 15 rerollable to wound grav shots still nets you 10 wounds on orks at range. and again with escorts, they are far more resiliant then you give them credit. Lascannons wont double them out, so you have 6 wounds to play with as opposed to 5.

Thunderfire cannons also wreck lightly armored vehicles. And with the advent of skitarii a barrage weapon like that with ignores cover can be completely game changing.

Bikers are hands down the best marine troops in the game, and if you dont know that I dont know what to tell you.

IMO the problem aren't really the terminators themselves, but rather what has been going on around them in the whole game. Other units have evolved, taking part in the dreaded power creep, or else becoming cheaper points-wise (or both!). Meanwhile terminators have been stuck in the same spot, with virtually no rule changes, for several editions.

They just need their old 3+ save in 2D6 back

On a more serious note, it's heartbreaking to read suggestions like "just give them grav weapons". Not for the suggestions themselves, but due to how insanely overpowered grav weapons are, at least if compared with the traditional special weapons.

 Sir Arun wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Terminators are not "extremely overpriced". TH/SS terminators are still one of the best units in the entire meta, let alone codex. Stormbolter terminators are mid-tier, and lightning claw terminators could do with a 5 point sink.

As far as the competitive scene goes, no. Hammernators, the best terminators, are passable in lgs games, but are still fishes out of water in larger tournaments. The other terminator load outs are hilariously hopeless.

I can't imagine a meta where Hammernators are considered better than thunderfires, gravcents, bikers, shield eternal chapter masters, and drop pod strike forces, but it must be fun.

I'm talking about a unit that has reasonable chances of taking out the most dangerous unit your opponent has, and at the same time being tough on their own.

Gravcents can deal similar amounts of damage, but 1) they arent nearly as mobile, 2) their effectivity drastically decreases against units with worse saves 3), they cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag in close combat and 4) they arent nearly as resilient.

TFCs are good horde killers but otherwise meh

Bikers arent anything special.

Smashfether Chapter Masters on bikes are obviously great

Thunderwolf Cavalry are probably the only real competitor here

-How are cents less mobile? Because they can't run a d6? They just need to get within 24" of their target unlike the termies that have to get within 0"
-Hammernators efficacy drastically drops against units with bad saves as well. Units with bad saves tend to be cheap, which means they're being tarpitted and whittled down by attacks in the meantime. (They're bad enough that they don't just get tarpitted by tarpits, they actually LOSE to tarpits half the time.)
-the termies can only fight their way out of specific paper bags, as above. Also these are a shooty unit we're talking about. They aren't supposed to be able to. If you want a melee comparison, grab the melee cents.
-uhhhh what? They're MORE durable than termies. T5 is a huge multiplier in how much punishment you can take, just ask canoptek wraiths.

I take it you don't see many tourney quality marine armies? White scar bikers have some good tourney performances on their belt, not to mention other chapters using them for relentless grav guns. TFC's actually get put in lists (unlike any version of terminators.)

Like I said, you must have a fun and not-too-competitive meta for termies to be considered good. I would love to play there so I could dust them off.

Terminators are good if you are grey knights.

Their terminators are exactly like my sang guard except they trade jump packs for a 5++ and 12" assault ap4 storm bolter for regular storm bolter.

Oh, and yeah they can come in T1

Replace stormbolters with heavy bolters, no need for a new model, its just what heavy bolters look like on a terminator. Provides them with considerably more firepower, at longer range. Kind of silly that massive terminator armor has a weapon that any regular human can fire without problem.

Allow terminators to not have their initiative reduced by weapon. Makes sense since you have this massively powerful armor that swinging that fist/hammer shouldn't slow them down, since the armor doesn't provide a strength boost. Only problem is power swords are useless, but big deal, how many people use swords on terminators anyways.

Terminators are pretty tough, yes there are lots of 2+ ranged weapons out there, but most are anti-tank or very short ranged. And terminators should be somewhat vunerable to those. Yes, you swamp them with lots of fire they die, but so does anything else that isn't a deathstar. Maybe you could justify increasing the T to 5.

If you go back to 2nd edition and look at the change in price for regular marines and terminators you see why terminators are so bad now. Terminators now have a worse armor save vs volume fire then they use to, and their save vs heavy weapons is about the same as it was. Space marines actually got a massive increase in survival since the 3+ isn't modified anymore by weapons. Yes, they still die to heavy/specialist weapons, but they always did. And their is more mass fire then there used to be. But they survive regular weapons far better now. Terminators used to be considered from 1st company, which made them veterans, which made them WS5, BS 5. Regular SM WS4, BS4. So now they are all WS4 BS4, meaning terminators lost more value. Weapons that used to be terminator/ vehicle only (assault cannon, stormbolters, thunderhammer, lightning claws) are now regular SM usable, making regular SM that much better, effectively making terminators worse. All this and regular SM went from 35 points to 14, terminators from 50 (or maybe 60, memory is a bit hazy) to 40 points now.

Well, and GK Termies can throw up "force" which at least gives some MCs and such pause.

It's been discussed to death, but I'd love t5 and ignore-unwieldy.

 Korinov wrote:

On a more serious note, it's heartbreaking to read suggestions like "just give them grav weapons". Not for the suggestions themselves, but due to how insanely overpowered grav weapons are, at least if compared with the traditional special weapons.

While I don't wholy disagree on principal, now that tactical marines and devastator squads can take grav (and devastators can take 4 grav...), and Mechanicus have Torsion and Grav, Terminators need more than storm bolters and power fists for 4 out of 5 models on the ranged end (not to mention nothing competitive for the 5th model). Pick any range, and there is another SM unit that's (much) better, which is the crux of it.

 Korinov wrote:
IMO the problem aren't really the terminators themselves, but rather what has been going on around them in the whole game. Other units have evolved, taking part in the dreaded power creep, or else becoming cheaper points-wise (or both!). Meanwhile terminators have been stuck in the same spot, with virtually no rule changes, for several editions.

They just need their old 3+ save in 2D6 back

On a more serious note, it's heartbreaking to read suggestions like "just give them grav weapons". Not for the suggestions themselves, but due to how insanely overpowered grav weapons are, at least if compared with the traditional special weapons.

You make a good point, but if that's the case then wouldn't it make sense that Terminators deserve a point decrease and some updated rules to make them more effective? Terminators have been struggling these last 3 editions as GW has refused to make any effective changes but I would be surprised if they don't make any as Terminators need to be brought up to the same level as elites of other armies which can happen through point changes and updated rules. And as mentioned above, there are far to many units that can do what terminators do and are a lot better at it.

GW doesn't play the same game we do. And they don't care about game balance. They probably think "discussing buffing terminators with your opponent before playing your all-terminator list" is a normal occurence in game stores everywhere.

Rumbleguts wrote:
Replace stormbolters with heavy bolters, no need for a new model, its just what heavy bolters look like on a terminator. Provides them with considerably more firepower, at longer range. Kind of silly that massive terminator armor has a weapon that any regular human can fire without problem.

Allow terminators to not have their initiative reduced by weapon. Makes sense since you have this massively powerful armor that swinging that fist/hammer shouldn't slow them down, since the armor doesn't provide a strength boost. Only problem is power swords are useless, but big deal, how many people use swords on terminators anyways.

Terminators are pretty tough, yes there are lots of 2+ ranged weapons out there, but most are anti-tank or very short ranged. And terminators should be somewhat vunerable to those. Yes, you swamp them with lots of fire they die, but so does anything else that isn't a deathstar. Maybe you could justify increasing the T to 5.

If you go back to 2nd edition and look at the change in price for regular marines and terminators you see why terminators are so bad now. Terminators now have a worse armor save vs volume fire then they use to, and their save vs heavy weapons is about the same as it was. Space marines actually got a massive increase in survival since the 3+ isn't modified anymore by weapons. Yes, they still die to heavy/specialist weapons, but they always did. And their is more mass fire then there used to be. But they survive regular weapons far better now. Terminators used to be considered from 1st company, which made them veterans, which made them WS5, BS 5. Regular SM WS4, BS4. So now they are all WS4 BS4, meaning terminators lost more value. Weapons that used to be terminator/ vehicle only (assault cannon, stormbolters, thunderhammer, lightning claws) are now regular SM usable, making regular SM that much better, effectively making terminators worse. All this and regular SM went from 35 points to 14, terminators from 50 (or maybe 60, memory is a bit hazy) to 40 points now.

All true, especially about 2nd ed.

 Korinov wrote:
IMO the problem aren't really the terminators themselves, but rather what has been going on around them in the whole game. Other units have evolved, taking part in the dreaded power creep, or else becoming cheaper points-wise (or both!). Meanwhile terminators have been stuck in the same spot, with virtually no rule changes, for several editions.

They just need their old 3+ save in 2D6 back

I think I cannot agree more. Being such an iconic unit hasn't been exactly beneficial for Terminators. The poor dudes are, being generous, three or four editions out of phase with the rest of the game.

On a more serious note, it's heartbreaking to read suggestions like "just give them grav weapons". Not for the suggestions themselves, but due to how insanely overpowered grav weapons are, at least if compared with the traditional special weapons.

I don't know, they're balanced in my books. Melta balances its astounding armor-killling power with extremely short ranges. Plasma is a decent all-rounder that can kill infantry with ease and even take some HPs off light armor if the situation calls for it, but cames with Gets Hot! attached. Grav in turn is a dedicated heavy infantry killer. It balances being so good at its intended role by sucking at anything else.

However I don't see why Terminators should have access to grav, either. They've always been disruption units and/or shock assault troops, rarely fire support units.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
They aren't getting a new kit, so their rules probably aren't changing.

How many Eldar units got new kits?

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
I don't know, they're balanced in my books. Melta balances its astounding armor-killling power with extremely short ranges. Plasma is a decent all-rounder that can kill infantry with ease and even take some HPs off light armor if the situation calls for it, but cames with Gets Hot! attached. Grav in turn is a dedicated heavy infantry killer. It balances being so good at its intended role by sucking at anything else.

However I don't see why Terminators should have access to grav, either. They've always been disruption units and/or shock assault troops, rarely fire support units.

Grav is way more than just a dedicated heavy infantry killer. I eats vehicles for lunch and hurts bad anything that is good. And as a Salvo weapon, you get tons more dice -- that wound on armor saves instead of toughness, to boot, to offset all those invulnerable saves.

Terminators will never be worth taking as long as we have rending, pseudo-rending, Grav weapons, or plasma/melta weapons out of every orifice.

Terminators will also be over coated and will always die to rate of fire. Nothing makes me happier than seeing 25+ terminators getting gunned down by 60+ fire warriors with Railcannons blowing them up and their heavy support.

They're too over coated, too squishy and simply get out maneuvered by virtually everything these days

 krodarklorr wrote:
Terminators will never be worth taking as long as we have rending, pseudo-rending, Grav weapons, or plasma/melta weapons out of every orifice.

Don't forget strength D! Now in stock at every craftworld cornerstore near you!

Talys wrote:While I don't wholy disagree on principal, now that tactical marines and devastator squads can take grav (and devastators can take 4 grav...), and Mechanicus have Torsion and Grav, Terminators need more than storm bolters and power fists for 4 out of 5 models on the ranged end (not to mention nothing competitive for the 5th model). Pick any range, and there is another SM unit that's (much) better, which is the crux of it.

Ironwolf45 wrote:You make a good point, but if that's the case then wouldn't it make sense that Terminators deserve a point decrease and some updated rules to make them more effective? Terminators have been struggling these last 3 editions as GW has refused to make any effective changes but I would be surprised if they don't make any as Terminators need to be brought up to the same level as elites of other armies which can happen through point changes and updated rules. And as mentioned above, there are far to many units that can do what terminators do and are a lot better at it.

Yes, yes, I'm not going to challenge the fact that Terminators have simply fallen (way way) behind in the current power scales. Look them up in virtually any space marine armylist and they're surrounded by better options... perhaps only exception would be CSM but mostly because the other elite slots also suck. Plus with CSM you can always load them up with combi-plasmas, deep strike and release a volley of S7 AP2 love, then perhaps they will survive and hit someone with their free power weapons. Hardly great anyway.

My biggest concern is just... I don't see anything really wrong per se with how terminators are. It's true they succumb too easily to mass volume of fire, but then, the D6 system has its limits. A 2+ save on a D10 system, even with armor modification instead of AP, would be kinda cooler. The problem is the power creep that has taken place around them. Plasma weapons and equivalents are supposed to be extremely rare weaponry yet still you can find them in spades in every battlefield.

Personally, as things currently stad, I'd probably go with a points drop. It would be the most sensible solution without resorting to a power creep.

Talys wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
I don't know, they're balanced in my books. Melta balances its astounding armor-killling power with extremely short ranges. Plasma is a decent all-rounder that can kill infantry with ease and even take some HPs off light armor if the situation calls for it, but cames with Gets Hot! attached. Grav in turn is a dedicated heavy infantry killer. It balances being so good at its intended role by sucking at anything else.

However I don't see why Terminators should have access to grav, either. They've always been disruption units and/or shock assault troops, rarely fire support units.

Grav is way more than just a dedicated heavy infantry killer. I eats vehicles for lunch and hurts bad anything that is good. And as a Salvo weapon, you get tons more dice -- that wound on armor saves instead of toughness, to boot, to offset all those invulnerable saves.

Grav is pure cheese.

Although I only began playing 40k "officially" in 6th ed, I've been following the game since 3rd, and I'm also decently informed about what was going on during 2nd and even Rogue Trader (have the rulebooks and supplements, etc.). Honestly, when I first checked the grav-weapons rules, I thought "wow, this gak better be very expensive and prohibitive". Grav-weapons have everything. Enough range to, if well positioned, be a threat to almost anything over a table. Rolls to wound on the armor value of the target. AP2. Glances vehicles on 6s. And Salvo 2/3 (cannons are actually 3/5 lol). And Concussive to top the cake. Being salvo 2/3 actually makes them great against even the best armoured vehicles, because you will have enough fire volume to ensure some 6s. The specific to wound mechanic, when coupled with AP2, is simply overkill. Yeah, little effective against lightly armored targets... pity marine armies already have boltguns everywhere to deal with those kind of opponents.

In a game where jacks-of-all-trades have been increasingly outshadowed and outperformed by specialist weapons and units, Grav-weapons simply are the jack-of-all-trades who outperform most specialists. Same AP as plasma but no gets hot!, even if slightly less range. Way better than melta at frying heavy armored targets, and also useful against any kind of vehicle. Higher volume of fire than lasguns, while having the potential to pack the same punch as a lascannon against targets like, precisely, Terminators.

In short, cheese designed to sell a lot of Centurion models.

They need some form of adjustment - 2 wounds, T5 or some such. They're just too fragile at the moment.