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 Albertorius wrote:
Fun fact about the bigass non-updating "update":

Number of ®s in the two combined: 109
Number of ™s in the two combined: 37

Not bad for a single update >_>

LOL!

 Albertorius wrote:
Fun fact about the bigass non-updating "update":

Number of ®s in the two combined: 109
Number of ™s in the two combined: 37

Not bad for a single update >_>

Number of words in the two combined (according to MS Office): 10,106
Amount of new info on Wave Two: None. (this isn't quite so fun a fact)

 Forar wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Fun fact about the bigass non-updating "update":

Number of ®s in the two combined: 109
Number of ™s in the two combined: 37

Not bad for a single update >_>

Number of words in the two combined (according to MS Office): 10,106
Amount of new info on Wave Two: None. (this isn't quite so fun a fact)

There was one, I think: GHQ is apparently going to do minis of Macross conventional vehicles.

Two, if you count them going for 15mm (yeah, they say they're still undecided. Yeah, right).

The fact that those two things are in the same post (release of new 6mm scale vehicles, change to 15mm) is, to me, immensely funny.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Forar wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Fun fact about the bigass non-updating "update":
Number of ®s in the two combined: 109
Number of ™s in the two combined: 37
Not bad for a single update >_>

Number of words in the two combined (according to MS Office): 10,106
Amount of new info on Wave Two: None. (this isn't quite so fun a fact)

There was one, I think: GHQ is apparently going to do minis of Macross conventional vehicles.
Two, if you count them going for 15mm (yeah, they say they're still undecided. Yeah, right).
The fact that those two things are in the same post (release of new 6mm scale vehicles, change to 15mm) is, to me, immensely funny.

The analysis you have both put into what Kevin had to say is beyond the call of duty and may have put your minds at no small risk: I salute you!
I figure the more conventional vehicles are more applicable to the "macross" version of Robotech which 6mm is pretty much how it will remain unless PB is swimming in cash to redo, any new models they can figure that out as soon as they "decide" on the scale going forward.
Being able to slip in some existing models from GHQ may be the godsend they are looking for: "They want models?! we have models now!".

I still maintain this whole thing is a smokescreen and it still is "we need money for wave2 so buy this stuff we have here", I really, really hope I am wrong.

I am now in an even bigger mess on my original question on the "scale" of model to get (make?) for say a Lisa objective.
I should probably shelve that thought until I am sure I will not do some weird rage-quit.

The pricing and sudden appearence of additional convention exclusives really lends itself to a cash grab for capital. All speculation of course.

This update, and the exclusive's timing before Gencon leads me to believe they're wanting the big reveal they were wanting last year, but missed out on.

 Albertorius wrote:
There was one, I think: GHQ is apparently going to do minis of Macross conventional vehicles.

Two, if you count them going for 15mm (yeah, they say they're still undecided. Yeah, right).

The fact that those two things are in the same post (release of new 6mm scale vehicles, change to 15mm) is, to me, immensely funny.

Neither of those apply to wave two. :-P

The former is them expanding the product line beyond the KS's original scope, and the latter only applies to later series of unreleased product that probably won't exist until 2017 or beyond (if ever, and that's a biiiiig If).

It's funny, I agree that there's an appearance of being a cash grab, but at the same time, if they're actually in financial trouble (in terms of capital needed for Wave Two), I highly doubt it'll help much. What kind of profit margin are we thinking are on these things? Usual retail markup is generally, what, ~100%? Even if they're clearing $12-15 per Limited Edition figure, they can sell 10,000 of them and still only pull in 150k. I vaguely recall them selling out of Max/Miriya during last Gencon, but didn't they only have like 200 of them per day or something? Moving a thousand figures at the convention is one thing. Moving ten thousand (let alone tens of thousands) even across the entire internet seems considerably less likely.

I'm sure some people will buy. I don't think they'll buy in anything resembling the kind of quantities it'd take to rake in a significant bump in funding.

If they couldn't complete the full project with ~1.5m, another 10% is unlikely to save it. Unless they've somehow got everything but shipping sorted out (or some other expense), I just don't see these things being anything but a drop in the bucket.

I don't recall them saying specifically but I wonder if the metal GHQ invid they're considering doing are planned currently in 6mm or 15mm. I could see them doing the metals (low lead time as in planning not the metal element, cheap molds, US production) in 6mm and then switching to whatever it is that they'll switch to for the plastics.

I'd hope 6mm so as to be compatible with the existing kits. It would be one thing to release a whole range of 15mm RRT models but only one?

I'm not sure I was clear but what I was saying the whole plastic line of southern cross and new gen stuff would be 15mm (so every thing there) but the more short term metal GHQ invid would be 6mm. I don't know if that clarifies as I'm not sure what you meant by only one.

I meant, I would hope anything by GHQ will be in 6mm because 15mm would make no market sense.

 Albertorius wrote:
I... actually like how they look at 6mm, TBH.

I guess it depends on the game to me.

If it's meant to simulate the rare Invid Invasion era 'big battles' where you see Cyclones as infantry moving across battlefields to support the 'armor' of large mecha, the 6mm looks fine. it's a big base representing a squad or similar.

If it's trying to represent the show, individuals seem more necessary, as the show was more about a small band of hero-types fighting a guerrilla war.

These sound like two different totally valid game concepts.

Another issue is that the cyclones are ridiculously overpowered and (except for range) have half the MDC and firepower of models over 10x their size. If you use the RPG stats straight out of the book, a cyclone squadron on one base is so tiny but yet kicks the crap out of a veritech at close range which feels odd IMO.

I'm biased as I've never been a fan of them in the RPG because they simply screw things up. You have a game where almost everything is to some degree a big stompy space robot... and then there are cyclones. They don't do the same scenarios and battles well that the other mecha generally do and act like remote rigging/hacking/astral projection do in shadowrun in that if you're pleasing the cyclone player(s) then everyone else is bored. Then throw in the OP nature of the armor's MDC and couple it with the very short range weapons and you have fights that they're either ridiculously good at or ridiculously bad at. YMMV but it seems like the GM and players need to get together ahead of the campaign and decide if they want a ground based infantry scaled game with cyclones at the majority or everything else. You can't run a dogfighting veritech space fighter campaign without boring a cyclone player who is apparently hanging on to the alpha for dear life in space all the time or riding a beta like a cowboy?? Or you have a cyclone group exploring building interiors, caves, and dense forest/jungle forcing the veritech player to constantly either hang back or leave his mecha completely for hours at a time at the table.

That same issue to a degree is extending into this tabletop game. The cyclones would be best in a 28mm style skirmish game where an "army" is <10 figs including at most one or two "big" mecha like an alpha or destroid the size of a 40k titan. The other mecha (whether southern cross veritechs, alpha/betas, macross, etc) work as intended at the current scale (although they do scale down to skirmish as well).

The only solution I'd see would be to leave "hero" cyclones for RPG/license purpsoses at full stats for a single tiny fig but limit them to 1-2 per army like VF-1S characters. The rest of the zergling rush cyclones would instead have the same stats for the 40mm multi-model base of cyclones. I don't really see another way to do it while still keeping both swarm and character cyclones in this current type of mass battle game.

 Manchu wrote:
The question of whether game pieces have value outside of gaming is rather absurd. It's a bit like asking someone who never plans to use a knife whether how sharp the blade is matters to them: who cares? Neither the person asked not the person asking, if we're being honest. i realize that painting, displaying, or even simply collecting game pieces may be your thing. But surely you wouldn't expect PB (or any game company) to tailor their game pieces to non-gaming purposes anymore than you would expect fine scale modelling companies to make more robust products for gaming purposes.

...

...I also collect fantasy swords and daggers I will never use, and I do care how sharp they are. Well, I guess I use them on oranges sometimes.

I don't expect them to tailor it to me, but I do wonder how many of the RTT backers backed for RTT minis rather than the RTT game (and game pieces). Whatever. Keep 6mm scale and let the gamers enjoy them. I'll just wait for someone to make not-Invid minis in a bigger scale and buy those.

And I just added that SDF1 to my wishlist. Thanks!

It's actually pretty easy when Characters are an upgrade to the base.

Instead of 5 generic Cyclones on the base, it would be 1 Character and 2 or 3 "fillers".

I think they look good at 6mm too.

However, as stated, it depends on the nature of the game. If it is supposed to do the big battles, than all good. If it is more like the show, then a larger scale is needed and it should NOT be compatible with Macrosse- scale-wise.

 Mike1975 wrote:
I pulled an older file if someone wants to take it to the next level....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just about all the mecha are there you just have to convert them to 6mm or 10mm.

Thanks for reposting that. I'll probably let one of the other fine folks take a crack at resizing all that. It isn't too hard to resize a few things like I did but that one would be a bit more. Maybe later on this week or next if Palladium seems deadset on 15mm I'll resize a beta next to some zentraedi so they can see it towering uber alles including the MACII (which I think is the case at 250% / 15mm but I'll have to check the numbers).

So what are your homebrew thoughts on balancing cyclones? As I said before, I personally think they're hideously overpowered overall but with a potential achilles heel of range at least in the RPG. WIth all the ranges being smooshed down to fit onto a 6x4 table, I'm not sure with my n=0 game experience how much that would come into play.

Conversion directly from RPG is PB intent and there had been lots of opportunities to balance them: not a likely change.

Also... Wave2???

 warboss wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
I pulled an older file if someone wants to take it to the next level....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just about all the mecha are there you just have to convert them to 6mm or 10mm.

Thanks for reposting that. I'll probably let one of the other fine folks take a crack at resizing all that. It isn't too hard to resize a few things like I did but that one would be a bit more. Maybe later on this week or next if Palladium seems deadset on 15mm I'll resize a beta next to some zentraedi so they can see it towering uber alles including the MACII (which I think is the case at 250% / 15mm but I'll have to check the numbers).

So what are your homebrew thoughts on balancing cyclones? As I said before, I personally think they're hideously overpowered overall but with a potential achilles heel of range at least in the RPG. WIth all the ranges being smooshed down to fit onto a 6x4 table, I'm not sure with my n=0 game experience how much that would come into play.[/quote

I really doubt they want to do the entire 3rd Gen in 15mm. They were talking about a skirmish game in 15mm coming out later. Of course I have not spoke to anyone there by phone in months. More likely they were thinking some of each per box, which is what we had last discussed and were looking for more information.

I have some cyclones already done up.......rule and all. I'm still working on the bigger stuff but all the stuff in green is ready.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dropped the MDC 2 each from the RPG conversions and then gave them a high DF with Quick. Quick means that they do not pay to dodge. They are 4 per stand. One Command Point per stand.

Filename	REF-Sentinels 6-9-15.pptx	Download
Description
File size	3761 Kbytes

So they're four per base but they're still tracked individually for damage purposes and attack four times from each base? Do you target an individual cyclone then on the base if you attack it?

 Talizvar wrote:
Also... Wave2???

Move along, nothing to see here...

 warboss wrote:
So they're four per base but they're still tracked individually for damage purposes and attack four times from each base? Do you target an individual cyclone then on the base if you attack it?

That's what I had in mind....Only complete squadrons have commanders with one better GN so you can roll them faster. They don't have a big punch. A whole Squadron has the firepower of around a Regult Squad. They are hard to swat though. There is a couple slides in the first few pages on the PPT file with some rules. Feel free to look. This has been tested only a couple times by a fellow player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In many ways these are similar to Toads in battletech in that they are a great deterrent but these can transform and try to get to the battle faster.

So if they get hit by a blast type weapon, all of them are hit and take damage individually? Is palladium ok with you dropping the MDC? Have they done that in the macross stuff as well for tactics compared with the RPG? It sounds interesting but my gut (which admittedly is 100% theoretical and 0% practical... rowboat gullyman would hate me!) makes me feel they'd be better off as a single unit with multiple actions possible via command points instead. How do you hand rear shots and turns? Are they all considered to be or mandated to be facing the same direction?

 warboss wrote:
So if they get hit by a blast type weapon, all of them are hit and take damage individually? Is palladium ok with you dropping the MDC? Have they done that in the macross stuff as well for tactics compared with the RPG? It sounds interesting but my gut (which admittedly is 100% theoretical and 0% practical... rowboat gullyman would hate me!) makes me feel they'd be better off as a single unit with multiple actions possible via command points instead. How do you hand rear shots and turns? Are they all considered to be or mandated to be facing the same direction?

What I wrote when I posted these in my group....

So Cyclones....
They add 1 Command Point Per Base.
4 Cyclones per Base Unless it is a special unit.
MDC was reduced from the RPG stats by 2 each.
Instead of "Plot" armor I've given them a high DF rating and quick. Quick allows them to dodge without paying Command Points.
When you shoot at a Base, roll D6 to randomly determine which cyclone was hit.
Due to their small size Cyclones and other infantry cannot Roll with Impact!
Included are rules for cyclones and infantry in buildings and a few other things.

So as to your questions....PB likely knows I dropped them down since I told them in an email. Since I've never got feedback from PB I have no clue what they think of it. One per stand and you will have a TON of cyclones on the table. They are tough but don't do much damage so I decided that about 4 were an equivalent to a Destroid. Blast weapons against these are nasty, and they should be. It's like throwing a super grenade between a cluster of troops. They have no facings so they cannot be rear shot when in Battle/Cyclone. This works but feels odd to me still but in Ride/Bike mode they do have a forward facing and can ONLY fire front with the wheel weapons and at a reduced GN. They can also be hit from the rear at that point. Some people question the No Rolling with Impact but since they can dodge well any shot that does hit is going to hurt. I don't see them Rolling with Impact, more like dodging only. These need to be tested more but it's my first pass combined with some input.

 Balance wrote:

If it's meant to simulate the rare Invid Invasion era 'big battles' where you see Cyclones as infantry moving across battlefields to support the 'armor' of large mecha, the 6mm looks fine. it's a big base representing a squad or similar.

If it's trying to represent the show, individuals seem more necessary, as the show was more about a small band of hero-types fighting a guerrilla war.

These sound like two different totally valid game concepts.

I said similar earlier, but yeah. The two game levels (the first, company level; the second, skirmish level) are valid but doesn't mix well together. It's a rare ruleset that can handle both together simultaneously, which is why you typically don't see it. The current RRT ruleset seems to be written more for company-level games.

No matter which way it's taken though, Cyclones are just going to create issues. Firstly, RRT doesn't have the concept of the human infantryman, unlike in CBT which has and group them into (somewhat) effective combatants; RRT just ignores human infantry, because until Invid Invasion, there are very few (practically none) man-portable anti-mecha units/ tactics written about. That is actually a major hole in the ruleset, because human infantry vs. mecha is actually one of the conceptually more interesting engagements you can fight. And without the concept of human infantryman in the game, a powered-armoured infantry is also going to create problems, and that's exactly what a Cyclone is.

The other thing is that from a settings perspective, it's better IMO for RRT to stay as a company level game. We don't see many big battles in New Generations simply because of the settings, but Robotech have another setting that these big battles can occur -- Sentinels. Those would be the perfect setting to use RRT in, and to be honest I'm keen to see Invid Inorganics at work. And from a product development perspective, it's in HG and PB's interests to further develop these and then move the focus away from the original three series.

So Invid vs. REF, Invid vs. Zentraedi (either remnants or pre-Robotech fights), etc. etc. To be honest, 6mm Invid would really give life to the Invid horde aspect -- for every basic Zent infantryman, you get two Invid Scouts, at least. Four Inorganics for every Masters Bioroid. The mental picture of a RRT game with those is quite entertaining.

Is there room for a New Generations type Skirmish game? Hell yeah. I'd love to see 28mm Cyclones and smaller Invid.. a 28mm Shock Trooper would be a treat. Post-apocalyptic setting with aliens? REF survivors fighting Invids and human survivors? Heck that's a line that'd sell itself if done right.

 Mike1975 wrote:
I have some cyclones already done up.......rule and all. I'm still working on the bigger stuff but all the stuff in green is ready.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dropped the MDC 2 each from the RPG conversions and then gave them a high DF with Quick. Quick means that they do not pay to dodge. They are 4 per stand. One Command Point per stand.

So... a small stand full of the equivalent of Regult Battlepods, toughness-wise? Yeah, that'll do wonders for the balance of the game. Also, more book-keeping, just because we can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mike1975 wrote:
In many ways these are similar to Toads in battletech in that they are a great deterrent but these can transform and try to get to the battle faster.

Toads are nowhere near that tough, killy or versatile. I'd suggest they should probably be much more like the series and much less like the Robotech RPG, if you want them to integrate with the rest of the game. For a separate game of Cyclones vs. Invid, though... all bets are off, but they would probably benefit of doing them at 28mm, even.

Cyclones shouldn't be so tuff. Remember at the beginning of mospeada earth lost to the invid. When the invid arrived earth already had large numbers of cyclones and it still wasn't enough. Heck the only reason the UEDF took back terra is because the invid chose to leave. I could be wrong, it's been years since I've seen it.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
I have some cyclones already done up.......rule and all. I'm still working on the bigger stuff but all the stuff in green is ready.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dropped the MDC 2 each from the RPG conversions and then gave them a high DF with Quick. Quick means that they do not pay to dodge. They are 4 per stand. One Command Point per stand.

So... a small stand full of the equivalent of Regult Battlepods, toughness-wise? Yeah, that'll do wonders for the balance of the game. Also, more book-keeping, just because we can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mike1975 wrote:
In many ways these are similar to Toads in battletech in that they are a great deterrent but these can transform and try to get to the battle faster.

Toads are nowhere near that tough, killy or versatile. I'd suggest they should probably be much more like the series and much less like the Robotech RPG, if you want them to integrate with the rest of the game. For a separate game of Cyclones vs. Invid, though... all bets are off, but they would probably benefit of doing them at 28mm, even.

Thanks for the input....what I said is that a full Squadron of 8 has about the same firepower as a Regult Squad. So 8 cyclones on 2 stands has a bit less firepower than 6 Battlepods and a lot less range but harder to kill. Cyclones don't have as much firepower in ride mode for obvious reasons. Hence why I dumbed down the damage they could take from the RPG. The RPG used "plot" armor and made these ridiculously tough. I can justify toning it down some if I exchange that toughness for other things like being harder to hit.

Now I think to properly do New Gen you will need a skirmish level game at 15mm for cyclones. 28mm will not work. If you ever have a Beta on the table it'll be like 12 inches tall. For the Sentinels stuff I think these will work great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Cyclones shouldn't be so tuff. Remember at the beginning of mospeada earth lost to the invid. When the invid arrived earth already had large numbers of cyclones and it still wasn't enough. Heck the only reason the UEDF took back terra is because the invid chose to leave. I could be wrong, it's been years since I've seen it.

Agreed, Cyclones should fill a niche roll. Holding or taking ground. They are a bit faster than Zen Infantry and those will be interesting to use to say the least.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Thanks for the input....what I said is that a full Squadron of 8 has about the same firepower as a Regult Squad.

You sure did. And what I said is that a base of 4 cyclones, each one with 6 hits plus free dodges are at the very least as tough as a full 6-units Regult squad. Don't you think it might be a tiny,teeny bit much? I'd buy the whole unit being as tough as a single Regult and adding free dodges to that, but what you're proposing feels nuts, pure and simple.

So 8 cyclones on 2 stands has a bit less firepower than 6 Battlepods and a lot less range but harder to kill. Cyclones don't have as much firepower in ride mode for obvious reasons. Hence why I dumbed down the damage they could take from the RPG. The RPG used "plot" armor and made these ridiculously tough. I can justify toning it down some if I exchange that toughness for other things like being harder to hit.

That's another thing: IIRC, a cyclone bike had a laser gun and a couple of disposable mini missiles, didn't they? Whereas each Regult battle pod has half a dozen laser guns, each as big as the whole cyclone... I don't think 2 stands should have a bit less firepower than 6 battlepods: I think 1 stand might have as much firepower as a single battlepod, tops.

Now I think to properly do New Gen you will need a skirmish level game at 15mm for cyclones. 28mm will not work. If you ever have a Beta on the table it'll be like 12 inches tall. For the Sentinels stuff I think these will work great.

I'm not sure how many people would prefer adding Betas when compared with being able to play with "full-sized" Cyclones. And they could also be used for the RPG, which surely would appeal to Kev.

EDIT: Thinking about it a bit more, probably the best way to model Cyclone squads would be using a single statline for the whole base: something along the line of 4-6 hits for the whole unit, a special "infantry" or "tiny" rule forbidding doing more than 1 hit from anything without blast, and a combined weapons stat.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Cyclones shouldn't be so tuff. Remember at the beginning of mospeada earth lost to the invid. When the invid arrived earth already had large numbers of cyclones and it still wasn't enough. Heck the only reason the UEDF took back terra is because the invid chose to leave. I could be wrong, it's been years since I've seen it.

Tell that to Palladium, who decided (for the first edition) they were as tough as original VT's at a fraction of the size, and had an 'auto-dodge' (a free dodge in their rules set). For their size they've always been surprisingly tough to kill.

I believe that was toned down in the revised edition of the books.

Which makes feasibly having to tone it down even further for RRT that much funnier.

As I've pointed out, the 'fluff' and the 'crunch' don't line up. Yes, they're supposed to be a last ditch effort piece of survival gear for downed pilots, but we had an entire series showcasing a handful of them in guerrilla action against a vastly superior force, and while fleeing/hiding were pertinent, when it came time to throw down, they certainly kicked some ass, because plot armour/heroes/good guys fighting back/whatever.

Basically it's the X-Wing/TIE Fighter standard; the 'good guys' have surprisingly tough units versus a swarm of imperial/zerg/zentraedi/whatever individually weaker units, but a lot of the series focused on the 'teeny tiny not really supposed to be front line battle gear' units so they shone and have importance beyond their role/size.