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I suppose Manchu could answer the question with certainty if he is still followng the threadvbut in my vast law and order reruns law knowledge the statute of limitations applies to the criminal count of fraud that would be brought about by the applicable attorney general. You as an individual could still sue palladium for breech of contract in civil court iirc.

I think it has become painfully clear that Palladium plans to just drag this out beyond the hope of any legal action being successful, without actually producing anything. And just hoping people forget about it and shovel them fistfuls of $$$s for whatever their next obsolete product based on outdated rules will be. I would be willing to bet there are still suckers, er, customers out there who will still do this. After all, there was ample evidence of Palladium incompetence before the Robotech KS, yet people gave anyway...

Since it came up in someone else's post, Bad Sellout (Syntax) did show his face briefly on KS during the pointless great scale debate a few months back after not being around for awhile, then submerged back into the swamp of his making again and hasn't been seen since.

I hope people would rather sue than just walk away. But then the costs may be too much for an individual to bear

There is no may about it. I cannot justify a lawsuit for what I am in this for, but I can sure be a loudmouth on the internet about it!

Merijeek wrote:

 n815e wrote:
HG got what they wanted from that ks though (a new movie license). They just wanted to show interest in the property.

You think movie licenses move so quickly that the KS had any influence of any kind on that? Not a chance in hell.

Perhaps you are right. But if something was in the works and they wanted some leverage... I also have the feeling Tommy Yune isn't a strong negotiator, Frank Agrama is surprised the property is still worth something and it wasn't exactly difficult to come to an agreement. If Palladium can afford it then it isn't exactly a hot commodity.

 totalfailure wrote:
After all, there was ample evidence of Palladium incompetence before the Robotech KS, yet people gave anyway...

I'm not so sure about that. At least in my case, the only reason I gave in and decided to back was because at the time they made quite clear that it was Ninja Division who was doing the KS, and KS and PB were there to oversee it, and only that.

Yes, it turned out that was so much horsegak, but... those were the reasons.

 Albertorius wrote:

 totalfailure wrote:
After all, there was ample evidence of Palladium incompetence before the Robotech KS, yet people gave anyway...

I'm not so sure about that. At least in my case, the only reason I gave in and decided to back was because at the time they made quite clear that it was Ninja Division who was doing the KS, and KS and PB were there to oversee it, and only that.

Yes, it turned out that was so much horsegak, but... those were the reasons.

Pretty much the same for me.

If I'm truly honest with myself, I'd have possibly backed regardless, but for much less than I did. Maybe a Battlecry, and one or two non-BC upgrades. But it was ND's involvement, and the apparent "We're just letting ND run wild and are just here for licensing reasons, and a slice of the pie." attitude from PB that pushed me into pulling the trigger and sinking significantly more into it.

The "shoulda known better" argument is only applicable if you not only use it to excuse the poorly managed/scheduled/executed project, but also use it to excuse intentionally misleading backers into who was running this thing. There's a big difference between poor management practices, and borderline fraud.

On an unrelated note, I wonder if the Gloval Report backers have got more than their Wave 1 Battlecry? Ratio-wise, they've got the potential to be the most screwed backers of all. Even though most of their owed product is available to complete. And given it's been literally more than a year since it's release, there's not really an excuse (other than "We don't wanna", and "We can't afford to") why they haven't been done, and shipped. It's possible it has happened, I guess. But given Kevin's penchant for self-congratulation, I'd have expected to see it mentioned, especially if he'd been able to elicit any approving words from those three.

A lawsuit would work if the backers banded together (would save a lot $). Would work better if there was an attorney here in the gaming community that would help for a chunk of the change we'd get as we shut Palladian down and take all the owner's personal stuff... home, cars, etc that he financed with our funds.

 455_PWR wrote:
A lawsuit would work if the backers banded together (would save a lot $). Would work better if there was an attorney here in the gaming community that would help for a chunk of the change we'd get as we shut Palladian down and take all the owner's personal stuff... home, cars, etc that he financed with our funds.

That only works if the backers are more interested in killing PB than in getting their stuff.

Because it's very doubtful a large class action will get more than pennies on the dollar. PB would have no choice but to fight it, as I doubt they've got enough assets to cover a full refund settlement and stay solvent. So there's no reason for them not to go all out defending themselves. They'd have nothing to lose.

After you remove the money spent on defense fees, and the winning lawyer's fee, from all the assets PB have? I doubt you would get a 10% return. So people in for $270 (the statistical average), would at most get less than the value of an expansion box. Sadly, the only way a backer has a chance of getting back most, if not all of his pledge, is to go it alone, and have it settled and cashed out, likely with an NDA attached, before further claims came in. And a successful defense would kill the company and see backers with nothing too.

As for taking the owner's personal stuff, unless it was shown that Kickstarter funds were spent in a completely fraudulent manner, I'd expect there to be some form of corporate liability shield in place. Incorporation (which PB lists as being) typically keeps personal assets from legal claims, though I stand to be corrected, as business law varies from state to state, country to country.

So to reiterate, if you're wanting to get your money back, you likely need to do it individually, or on behalf of a very limited group. Anything else will kill the company, with backers having nothing to show for it. And if you're gonna do that, then the FTC or Michigan AG are much surer ways to get that done, with less hassle. Sure, the Michigan AG isn't progressing on the current complaints lodged, but they did leave open the possibility of re-opening the investigation if circumstances change.

 Albertorius wrote:

 totalfailure wrote:
After all, there was ample evidence of Palladium incompetence before the Robotech KS, yet people gave anyway...

I'm not so sure about that. At least in my case, the only reason I gave in and decided to back was because at the time they made quite clear that it was Ninja Division who was doing the KS, and KS and PB were there to oversee it, and only that.

Yes, it turned out that was so much horsegak, but... those were the reasons.

This is why I get pissed at WRRD. In real life he probably a perfectly decent guy. But in this campaign he helped misrepresent the situation, and continues to do so.
First it was ND doing the work, then of course it's Palladium doing things what did you expect, then oh if only ND hadn't chose China, even though it's Palladium running things and always was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anybody else curious what exactly is required to get production started?
Assuming it is just a case of trying to reduce the part count, how many brick walls do Palladium have to hit before they decide that high part count is the way to go?

Joyboozer wrote:
Anybody else curious what exactly is required to get production started?
Assuming it is just a case of trying to reduce the part count, how many brick walls do Palladium have to hit before they decide that high part count is the way to go?

Not sure what you're meaning here. If you mean from a technical perspective, that's been covered in the past. They need the digital sculpt, {Pre Production Prototype}, sprue layout, {3D printing of}, milling of the molds, test sprues, allocation of production schedule, production. Then of course, bulk packing, Chinese customs, loading, shipping, unloading, US customs, ground transit, bulk unpacking, compilation, individual packing, and shipping via courier/USPS.

If you mean from Palladium's perspective, there's simply not enough information available to make even the vaguest estimate. We saw the status of the five items at the end of February. The remaining 19-21 items could be at that stage. They could be further along. They could be further back (that'd be my pick). Even those five items could have been worked on further, or they could have regressed, as the whole "minimize parts thing" means going back to the drawing board on at least some aspects.

It's the reason PB were asked, and Wayne promised, that he'd give us "a big breakdown of where each and every component is in its development, but that’s going to take some time.". But as Forar points out relatively frequently, the day count on that is currently 105. Or, 15 weeks. And counting.

There is speculation that it's more a funds issue than a production one. If PB don't have the funds to do it, there's no point rushing to get it ready for a production run they can't pay for.

Simply put, too little information available to make an assessment with any level of certainty.

I mean I'd like palladium pinned down, for them to say, ok we tried, it's this part count or it's nothing and just do it.
WRRD is on the inside, I'm sure as palladium are too busy he could let us know, what's the plan?

Joyboozer wrote:
I mean I'd like palladium pinned down, for them to say, ok we tried, it's this part count or it's nothing and just do it.
WRRD is on the inside, I'm sure as palladium are too busy he could let us know, what's the plan?

Ahh. Gotcha. Good luck with that.

I'd like a pony. Made of diamonds. Ridden by a supermodel. Also made of diamonds.

I mean, as long as we're asking for stuff that's just not gonna happen, based on prior evidence.

Oh I know, it's more about convincing the whitest of white knights that he's actually neck deep in bs he's helping to perpetrate, maybe then we'll get the truth.

Joyboozer wrote:
Anybody else curious what exactly is required to get production started?
Assuming it is just a case of trying to reduce the part count, how many brick walls do Palladium have to hit before they decide that high part count is the way to go?

Seriously you believe PB's line they are trying to reduce the part count? the designs are already done, they just don't have the money to do them, all this part count reduction nonsense is a stalling action till they can come up with a better idea on how to get the money to finish the project, that is if they even give a care about the backers at all.

the multi parts count was a joke and an excuse PB used saying it had to be that way, to hid the fact that PB is cheap and went the cheapest way possible in this entire operation, not to fault them for that since companies are out to make money after all.

but here we have several lone individuals without the equipment and resources PB has who are well in other words doing PB's job for them and doing a better job then PB.

This talk of our dear WRRD made me wonder at the evolution of chatter from him, and wandered through his old comments. In an effort to keep from being a donkey cave (intentionally at least) about it, I note that his commentary (as is mine and anyone else's) is publicly available, and I point this out more as a reflection of how the tone has changed in the campaign from one of the few people directly tied to it that has spoken up even infrequently.

From a perspective "behind the curtain" I have to say this.. This project was a BIG gamble from the start. I spent too many hours designing, thinking, and making phone calls trying to make this happen. We knew there were Robotech Fans "out there". We knew that if we built it they would come. This was a huge gamble that Palladium threw out there, and by the looks of it it is going to pay off well.. but when I talked with Kevin a LONG time ago, we were expecting a project that would get a few battle pods and veritech or three.. I thought that a $40,000 goal was a lofty one and would be hard to reach.. there was little thought early on as to lots of stretch goals and experimental mecha. at least be me. ALL OF YOU, made that happen. The prep work that larger companies do on their projects is different than what was going on here.Thankfully, everyone at Palladium and Ninje were prepared for the possibility of success.The project grew exponentially larger than initially expected, but we knew we had the personnel and with Ninja Division in our corner with their expertise, the project would happen. As a first Kickstarter to do. This was a big deal! As stated the learning curve was steep and the hours put into this were long, but the people working on the project want to see things done right. I've watched the project as much of you have and I have no complaints. Above all, the only thing you can blame Palladium or Anyone working on the project is that they are victims of their own commitment to seeing the project done right. If people cannot accept that everyone is trying to create the best game and miniatures they can for YOU, the fans, than you can go somewhere else. Don't complain here. I will not have you tarnish something that I feel so strongly about. I have seen this project go from two sentences typed on my computer to 1.4 million and the creation of every mini that I ever played with in my imagination! I'm here till the end!

Nov 2 2013 on #116: from the project Robotech® RPG Tactics™

Okay, this starts taking on a Kevin'esque tone. This comes from the Update on November 1st 2013 where they admit that December is no longer feasible, but also say February 2014 is possible (with no hint of wave splitting). A stark reminder (from the update) that even over a year into the project (remember, they allegedly started working on it at least half a year prior to the KS campaign), they definitely had no idea how far off they were, or were heavily committed to not letting on just yet.

As we move into the holidays I want to say thank you all for the patience and understanding that this is a considerable huge undertaking. Yes everyone is correct that GenCon is a big deal. Palladium is going to great lengths to supporting this game at GenCon. The booth this year is going to be huge. There is going to be lots of tables for RRPGT games and demos as well as games for the RPG's they carry. I will be there again this year and I'm really excited for it. It will be amazing! The models are currently being engineered for the sprues and the molds are being created. That takes time. The backers are their first priority so quality is priority. They are trying to get these minis produced as fast as possible and since the minis are so detailed. Production take time. That's the short of it and the problem. I am awed by how passionate some of you are and all comments are welcome. I guess what I want to say is happy holidays and when the backers get their minis you will not be disappointed! Tom

Dec 22 2013 on Robotech® RPG Tactics™

The key point here is the chatter about the models, sprues, and molds. Commentary on them being worked on, and yet a mere 5 weeks later(ish), Kevin drops the 2 Waves bomb on us. Which means that either WRRD isn't as in the loop as he implies, or knows but is doing the professional thing of not sharing info he's not supposed to. I'm going to assume the latter, but it means that his declarations of confidence and progress are tainted with Toeing The Company Line. Less of an insider, more of a corroborating source led by the same info given (I'm also granting that he may simply be expressing assurance either without knowledge or with the same bullgak reassurances PB hands out like candy (hard, old, unpalatable candy).

Which makes these a little less reliable;

Wave 2 has been worked on right along with Wave 1. wave 1 has been getting all the attention. I can't speculate yet on the next eras.

Jul 18 2014 on #150: from the project Robotech® RPG Tactics™

@Max - Kevin is not waiting years to get things started.. There are many things going on in the background. Too many people want to see this enterprise succeed to let it die.

Jul 18 2014 on #150: from the project Robotech® RPG Tactics™

Wave 2 status.. they are working on proofing some sprue layouts and tweaking design of joints.. I don't know about the parts counts.. but they are doing their best to make wave 2 look great. One of the more difficult aspects of this has been the waiting I realize, but PB has not been standing around and doing nothing. There are so many things happening in the background that everyone does not realize. This has been no small undertaking by PB and ND. There has been a big learning curve and PB is constantly trying to improve so that you guys get the best product that you can. In the (reasonably) quickest time possible. To those that have been getting your stuff please lets hear about it..

Nov 8 2014 on Robotech® RPG Tactics™

Nearly one full year ago, and the same issues come up. This is also contrasted against the comments from Ninja Division that PB has had the final models for the full product line for somewhere around a year, which raises the question of just how long has this factory been working on 'converting' those to something they can use?

There has been progress on Wave two.. Concentration has been mostly on distribution. once everything has been sent, more info will come.

Dec 2 2014 on Robotech® RPG Tactics™

@Daniel Wave 2 is in process and more information on it will be coming from PB once all the wave 1 orders are complete.

Dec 12 2014 on Robotech® RPG Tactics™

It's never been a matter of will it be complete, just a matter of when.

Jun 13 2015 on #181: from the project Robotech® RPG Tactics™

Right, which is evidence of faith, not fact. Just like Wayne's statement;

@Forar: Robotech RPG Tactics, the game, will be at Gen Con. For sale. In quantity. There's not much question about that. (I realize some folks on here are questioning it, but there's no doubt in my mind.) We hope to have it well in advance of that, but the particulars of just how well in advance are what we're still sorting out. I'm about to write up an update to post here, btw.

Jan 17 2014 on #125: from the project Robotech® RPG Tactics™

I do not know the financial situation of PB, now would I discuss it on a public forum if I did know. What I do know is that PB is still working on wave 2 and still making RPGs. And they will continue to make new products for years to come.

Jun 26 2015 on Robotech® RPG Tactics™

"For years to come", indeed! And that's just what they've got lined up for 2013, years more work to go!

I suppose this will come across as 'calling WRRD out', which it isn't really intended to be. As I said at the start, it's a reflection of the information we get, or don't get, or have to read between the lines, or piece together from various sources and add supposition to. Few as their voices may be these days, there remain those who declare anyone asking for info or evidence of progress to be whiny or impatient or complain how bored they are with people asking about it (this comes up regularly on Mike's page), but glancing through what has been said, in public, as reassurance by one of the people who had a hand in this and comments on conference calls with Jeff and talking to Wayne and Kevin, if he's so in the dark and relying on so much faith, how can we really take those statements as fact?

It's opinion dressed up as fact with a smattering of 'I know something you don't know'.

Which at this point seems to be 'just how well and truly fethed everything really is', if anything.

Now, I may not be some fancy big city lawyer, but I'll be goosed by a greased sow's tail if someone can explain what in the ever loving hell this means:

"There has been progress on Wave two.. Concentration has been mostly on distribution. once everything has been sent, more info will come."

Distributing WHAT? What is progress on that? Going to http://postcalc.usps.com/ with a wild ass guess about the size and weight and destinations of packages?

WRRD wasn't the only one to play the "I know something you don't know" game. Of course, of the two I can think of, one has gone silent, and the other seems to have become an apostate, even if he's still doing his best to revive something that was stillborn a year ago.

Morgan Vening wrote:
I'd like a pony. Made of diamonds. Ridden by a supermodel. Also made of diamonds.

I think "Handsome Jack" from "Borderlands" has a diamond pony... ah, yes: here you go:
http://www.shopgearbox.com/butt-stallion-diamond-edition-statue.html
http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Butt_Stallion
It is like some strange twist on the "Golden Goose" kinda like the PB Robotech license.

Merijeek wrote:
Now, I may not be some fancy big city lawyer, but I'll be goosed by a greased sow's tail if someone can explain what in the ever loving hell this means:

"There has been progress on Wave two.. Concentration has been mostly on distribution. once everything has been sent, more info will come."

Distributing WHAT? What is progress on that? Going to http://postcalc.usps.com/ with a wild ass guess about the size and weight and destinations of packages?

My guess is that you've just listed Palladium's ongoing hard work on the progress for a month or more. If they check the shipping cost to an individual backer once a day on the site calculator, they can ride this out for years while claiming "ongoing work" with no actual progress as they believe that instantly absolves them from anything/everything according to their interpretation of the kickstarter contract. And if, god forbid, the post office changes their price, they're back to square one and have to redo all that hard work because of someone else (not their fault again?!?!? muwhaaaahaa!).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:


Jan 17 2014 on #125: from the project Robotech® RPG Tactics™

I do not know the financial situation of PB, now would I discuss it on a public forum if I did know. What I do know is that PB is still working on wave 2 and still making RPGs. And they will continue to make new products for years to come.

Jun 26 2015 on Robotech® RPG Tactics™

"For years to come", indeed! And that's just what they've got lined up for 2013, years more work to go!

I only wish he weren't talking about wave two specifically. :( His "prediction" of years of work at Palladium's pace unfortunately is spot on whether he meant it or not.

Merijeek wrote:
Man, that one picture of Simbieda looks like something from a 1980's PSA about 'Stranger Danger'.

It's a fake, he's not sitting behind a CRT, but a LCD.

 warboss wrote:

My guess is that you've just listed Palladium's ongoing hard work on the progress for a month or more. If they check the shipping cost to an individual backer once a day on the site calculator, they can ride this out for years while claiming "ongoing work" with no actual progress as they believe that instantly absolves them from anything/everything according to their interpretation of the kickstarter contract.

There's a thought. What constitutes proof of them working in good faith on the project? We obviously can't take their word for it as they've been proven to not tell the truth. Would it boil down to retaining a lawyer to request evidence of the current status of the project? Is that all we're asking the varied AGs to do?

 Stormonu wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
Man, that one picture of Simbieda looks like something from a 1980's PSA about 'Stranger Danger'.

It's a fake, he's not sitting behind a CRT, but a LCD.

I more meant the "I have candy in my van!" picture, not the "And I'll stick this fist so deep I'll get to their wallet no matter where they hide it!" picture

Effectively; it'll go something like:

Backer Attorney to State AG:
We state that PB are incapable or unwilling to comply with the terms of the contract formed between backers and the project creator of this kickstarter when the project was funded. We provide these kickstarter updates as evidence and request a subpoena of evidence for Palladium Books' use of kickstarter funds.

PB Attorney to State AG:
We disagree, we sent half of what we were supposed to. In retail terms blah blah blah.

State AG:
Subpoena granted.

At this point PB have to provide both the state AG and the backer Attorney with the requisite evidence of spending. Here's where the fun starts.

IF PB are found to not be able to complete the backer rewards, based on their expenditure, they will be found in breach of the contract formed. They will be ordered to refund backers as the AG dictates, in line with the T&C. They may need to liquidate to do so. This is what would kill PB stone dead.

Now, LLC's (Ltd in the UK) protect the directors of a business from personal liability if the decisions made by those directors are not fraudulent, illegal or (here's the kicker) deliberately reckless.

This means; if you make a gak decision, knowing it's a gak decision, you can be held personally liable for the debts of the business. Digging through company memoranda, emails etc (all of which may be subpoena'd if someone is motivated enough) can end up with the corporate veil being hacked to bits, rather than pierced.

Can it be argued that Kevin made key decisions badly, in full knowledge that those decisions would damage the project and therefore company? Was it *really* a good idea to buy in that much wave 1 stock? Who made the call on that?

Those are the sorts of questions that may raise some very uncomfortable and expensive answers. However, asking (or at least getting answers to) those questions needs a fair amount of money, and needs a lot of motivation - the sort of thing a large group of backers represented by one attorney might be able to pull off, but not so much backers individually.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 455_PWR wrote:
A lawsuit would work if the backers banded together (would save a lot $). Would work better if there was an attorney here in the gaming community that would help for a chunk of the change we'd get as we shut Palladian down and take all the owner's personal stuff... home, cars, etc that he financed with our funds.

That only works if the backers are more interested in killing PB than in getting their stuff.

If PB won't be providing the stuff I paid for, I see no reason that they should remain in business.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

 455_PWR wrote:
A lawsuit would work if the backers banded together (would save a lot $). Would work better if there was an attorney here in the gaming community that would help for a chunk of the change we'd get as we shut Palladian down and take all the owner's personal stuff... home, cars, etc that he financed with our funds.

That only works if the backers are more interested in killing PB than in getting their stuff.

If PB won't be providing the stuff I paid for, I see no reason that they should remain in business.

Damn right.

I am not out for Vengeance, I just want to make sure that no-one else gets caught in this way - and if PB put themselves in the firing line as prime examples of what NOT to do when crowd-funding, then that's their choice!

KS penniless due to a bad KS, that's poetic justice right there!

Oh, and ANY retail stock paid for from KS funds which then means the company does not have the funds to complete the KS rewards. I reckon that's fraud. It doesn't matter that the intention was to generate more money, they've ended up with less money from an action they shouldn't have taken [IF they spent KS money on it.] in the first place. Their primary obligation for that money was to fulfil the backers rewards. Buying retail stock is not [should not be] a valid use of those funds. It is surely misappropriation of those funds?

Not necessarily, a certain, realistic, amount of wave 1 stock should have been bought for retail, but remaining production should have been allocated sufficient funding. I actually think there should have been just enough to get everything made.

The said, getting the judgment on what a realistic amount to buy would have been would have required a lot of research, and the models effectively being under external review well before the final production run.

That, early on, would have caught the frankly appalling kit design we have right now. Yup, they can make nice models in the end, but they kill the game by being too tricky to assemble.

Very similar results could have been hit with drastically simpler assembly. Note I do not necessarily mean less parts, so much as easier parts to deal with.

This would have meant more people playing, more people being brought in, and sufficient revenue growth to fund secondary production or revision phases.

Right now people don't play this primarily because they're frightened off by the models, have been told 2nd hand they're horrible, or because they've heard of the gak PB are pulling.

Nowhere in the campaign did it mention funding the creation of the game AND allowing them to produce a surplus for retail.
The whole focus was on individual goal levels, with each step being funded, to produce rewards FOR backers.
Palladium can cry about it all they want, but it's all there word for word with pictures.

The models aren't "the worst thing ever" but they are difficult and a pain to assemble. Their detail is ok but a bit meh. The main reason I dumped my KS stuff on ebay was because of PB's behavior. I could have suffered through the models and rules if those were the only hang ups, but I refuse to support a company that is telling everyone to smile and how great things are while force feeding us a load of manure with every communication.

I've had worse models and still used them because I had faith in the game or company, however PB's antics ran themselves out of goodwill ages ago.

The rules aren't really bad. They are actually pretty good for a first edition of a game. They are better than a game that has been around for around 30years(looking at you 40K) Yes they have some issues, but if the game actually ever got played they could have gotten better. Sadly the farce of a KS and the overly complex models killed it. I had hopes, and they have been dashed, way to go Palladium.

Joyboozer wrote:
Nowhere in the campaign did it mention funding the creation of the game AND allowing them to produce a surplus for retail.
The whole focus was on individual goal levels, with each step being funded, to produce rewards FOR backers.
Palladium can cry about it all they want, but it's all there word for word with pictures.

I think it is a given that many KS's want to sell retail and make $ at the end of the day and must make extra product to do just that. The problem is not that PB bought extra stuff to sell, that was the right move. The problem was that they did not use or practice any management or oversight of the project once ND handed it over. The extra space alone in the boxes probably cost enough in shipping extra containers that they could have been much closer to actually having molds done and ready on wave 2. The problem is not that they bought extra stuff, it is that nothing was planned, organized, or watched over from day one after the KS ended. Too many poor assumptions were made that led to even poorer actions primarily due what appears to be a careless attitude on something that is apparently more important to fans than the license holders themselves.