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 n815e wrote:

Sining wrote:
What on earth makes pb fans think ND is a partner? Are they receiving a share of the profits? No? Are they allowed to make any of the decisions without input from PB? No? Sounds more like a employer employee relationship -_-.

I'm not a PB fan. It just goes to show how much there are those who cannot handle someone who disagrees with them that they have to discount others' opinions as "PB fans" or "White Knights" or "Fan Friends".

Do you know what the financial arrangement is between ND, PB and HG? You don't actually know if ND gets a share of the profits. Does PB make any decisions about the game without input from HG? According to your logic, then, PB is the employer of HG.

If there was simply a contractor-employer relationship, why is ND's logo on the boxes alongside PB's and HG's. I don't have my personal logo alongside my employer's.

The plastic manufacturer's logo isn't on the boxes, either. Neither is PB's printer's. Or the surface shipping company's. Or USPS'...
It's rather unusual for a contractor to have their logo featured on a product.


We all have differences of opinions and in the absence of solid information we will never completely know.
Yet there are those who, for whatever reason, feel the need to excuse ND as though they had no part in this.


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Merijeek wrote:

 n815e wrote:
When we wade past Kevin's bull and get to the heart of it, it certainly seems reasonable that some of the points made are true.

ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.

Nope. The major quality problem wasn't down to the designs, it was down to the way they were cut for production.

So all the people that have complained about soft or missing details, that have complained about fragile parts, that have complained about lack of poseability, that's all down to the way they were cut for production. Got it.

actually most if not 99% of them are complaining about the cuts of the product, not sure I heard any complaints about "Soft" or "Missing" details ? lack of posability is due to how the pieces were cut.

As to ND's position, do you just ignore those statements that do not agree with you? it is stated that ND was "Hired" to do certain things and this was stated by Ninja John himself.

as to their name being on the box, go look at some of those Miniature games out there, a lot of them have designer names on the boxs, it helps identify product and promote sales, it does not mean the designer is getting a piece of the action. just like RPG books for Palladium PB pays the writers, but they don't get a piece of the sales from it.

 Forar wrote:
No. Bad PB. You don't get to assume things in business. You get it all, EVERYTHING, explicitly written down. Everyone is on the same page, everyone knows who is being paid what to do what work, and what penalties may come into play if that work isn't completed to PB's satisfaction (or in a timely fashion). Hell, if it's as egregious as some people make out, PB should be taking ND to court.

I have worked for interesting individuals who wanted to get the "most" out of their contractors.
The typical method is to write some open ended statements and non-specific wording.
The intent is to expand their definition of what they think that person should be doing and try to bully them into doing more.
I bet PB wrote-up the contract in the same way they do for their contracted artists and writers.

I think what they were not planning-on is as they started pulling shenanigans ND figured they would do the minimum to the letter of the contract and backed away.
I am sure PB would have tried things like withholding payment (which a supplier complaint from a security company they employed can attest) until they realized they needed ND more than they needed them. The link here is a rather interesting look at their behavior as a company: http://rosswatson.blogspot.ca/2012/05/publisher-profile-palladium-books-part.html.

It could be very likely ND could have done more but I bet when they started witnessing "scope creep" they figured out their exit strategy quickly.

All conjecture of course since ND is being rather quiet about everything even with Kevin's various allegations.

So, I guess I play ST: Armada for now until I get inspired enough to squeak the most variety out of the models I do have.

ND is staying quiet, because they're smart enough not to get dragged back into the morass, having already fulfilled their obligations.

If PB had a legal leg to stand on, to compel ND to do more work, you can bet Kevin would be beating the drum of how the delays are due to ND not finishing their work.

What, am I dealing with Lola now?

The single biggest issue, and complaint, with these miniature models is that they were chopped into a ridiculous number of pieces.

Agree or disagree?

The "soft or missing details" come from the designs, or from the production and material chosen.

Production or design?

The "fragile parts" come from the designs (apart from necessity based on source, naturally) or the production and material chosen?

Production or design?

The lack of poseability - that might be from the design. Or it could be a 3D model that was posed in a particular way and then shipped to China for chopping up. I have a hard time believing that anyone, ND or PB, would be so fething incompetent as to create models, which would be used in forces dozens strong, in only a couple different poses.

Because PB has demonstrated that they couldn't manage to orchestrate an orgy in Caligula's Rome, I'm going to guess that, somehow, it was PB's fault.

Keep in mind, as well, that both ND and HG have maintained their professional stature here as well. I have yet to see anything from either one of them describing how one of the other partners was a gigantic disappointment, and how it was totally not their fault, it was someone else's. Only one company in this entire joke has done that.

However, it doesn't matter whether or not it was PB's fault, ND's fault, or HG's fault. Because PB is the one ultimately responsible. It was their project. They are the ones to whom the money was given.


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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
ND is staying quiet, because they're smart enough not to get dragged back into the morass, having already fulfilled their obligations.

If PB had a legal leg to stand on, to compel ND to do more work, you can bet Kevin would be beating the drum of how the delays are due to ND not finishing their work.

Yes, but you don't have a signed affidavit from Kevin Simbieda admitting to it...well, we just can't make that assumption. Even though every thing Simbieda has ever said and done makes that crystal fething clear.

I don't think it even matters anymore about whose the bigger screw up. A long time ago I chose not to give any more money to either company.

hmm, why does this not sound like Kevin, would love to see the actual police reports and such and why no insurance?

EMBEZZLEMENT CASE AND FINANCIAL DIFFICULTIES
On April 19, 2006, Kevin Siembieda issued a statement that revealed Palladium Books' critical financial difficulties due to alleged embezzlement and theft resulting in losses from $850,000 to $1.3 million, coupled with a series of delays in negotiating license deals for their properties in other media (the Nokia N-Gage game, the Jerry Bruckheimer movie, a massively multiplayer online game license, and other potential deals).[2] They raised money to continue operations by selling a signed and numbered – but not, strictly speaking, "limited edition" – art print by Kevin Siembieda, as well as by urging fans to buy directly from their online store if their financial situations would allow for it.
An April 26, 2006 article in the Kingsport Times-News revealed that Steve Sheiring, Palladium's former sales manager, had been sentenced in a plea bargain to a misdemeanor conviction, one year of probation, and ordered to pay $47,080 in restitution to Palladium Books in connection with these thefts. It also provided more information about the thefts, which took place from 2002 to 2004 and were only discovered when Palladium took inventory.[4]
Responding to the controversy engendered by such a low settlement amount in relation to the large loss figure claimed in his earlier press release, Kevin Siembieda posted an open letter to the Palladium forum explaining the matter. Siembieda stated that he had not wanted to make public Sheiring's identity out of the fear that overzealous fans might get into trouble by committing acts of reprisal. He explained that the heaviest punishment Sheiring had been likely to receive even without the plea bargain was probation. Siembieda had a choice between getting any amount of settlement money at all to pay critical bills, or spending more time and money to attempt to get his "pound of flesh" from a man who was reportedly broke anyway. Given the urgency of Palladium's situation, Siembieda did not feel he had any real choice but to take what little he could get.[5]
During the week of May 7, 2007, Palladium announced that revenue from increased sales of books, admissions to its first annual Open House, and purchases of the special art print had covered most of the short-term damages it had incurred. This period of financial instability became referred to by Siembieda as the "Crisis of Treachery" in keeping with his stance that the root cause of the difficulties was the embezzlement perpetrated by Sheiring.

The reason for the lack of insurance is because no adjustor would possibly assess the value so high, and PB couldn't possibly afford the premiums of $1M worth of art.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The reason for the lack of insurance is because no adjustor would possibly assess the value so high, and PB couldn't possibly afford the premiums of $1M worth of art.

yeah but thing is I think PB or more specifically Kevin gave an over inflated value to his gak, cause this is the guy who sells a picture with him and his staff for $40 and its signed by them, seriously wonder if they even sell any of those?

You just can't appreciate fine art and effort of a master wordsmith. I see how little you respect the works of fiction published long ago in the Update tab of the Robotech Kickstarter!

 warboss wrote:
You just can't appreciate fine art and effort of a master wordsmith. I see how little you respect the works of fiction published long ago in the Update tab of the Robotech Kickstarter!

I know the KSU's tend to be fictional in content, but I really don't see them as fine art.

Unless this has all been some sort of long performance art piece. I know Forar jokingly mentioned that a year or two ago. That the purpose of the Kickstarter was to see how many people and how much money he could get, and for how long he could draw it out without actually doing anything of substance.

If that's the case, yeah, it's art. And a damn fine example.

 n815e wrote:

Sining wrote:
What on earth makes pb fans think ND is a partner? Are they receiving a share of the profits? No? Are they allowed to make any of the decisions without input from PB? No? Sounds more like a employer employee relationship -_-.

I'm not a PB fan. It just goes to show how much there are those who cannot handle someone who disagrees with them that they have to discount others' opinions as "PB fans" or "White Knights" or "Fan Friends".

Do you know what the financial arrangement is between ND, PB and HG? You don't actually know if ND gets a share of the profits. Does PB make any decisions about the game without input from HG? According to your logic, then, PB is the employer of HG.

Do you?
PB is definitely not the partner of HG and yet HG is on the box.
You might claim you're not a PB fan but you've pretty much defended them until recently, even with this whole trying to shift blame to ND thing.

If there was simply a contractor-employer relationship, why is ND's logo on the boxes alongside PB's and HG's. I don't have my personal logo alongside my employer's.

The plastic manufacturer's logo isn't on the boxes, either. Neither is PB's printer's. Or the surface shipping company's. Or USPS'...
It's rather unusual for a contractor to have their logo featured on a product.

If it wasn't, how else would they sucker all those people into backing it thinking it's a ND project /s
As it is, you have no idea what the agreement was between them or if ND having their logo on the box is simply part of the initial contract. You're just inferring a LOT from that one thing. By that logic, if CMON puts Eric Langs name onto their boxes, he must be a partner right? Or when I read a visual novel and it has the artist name on it along with the writers, they must be partners right?
Or do you just not understand what a partnership is?

We all have differences of opinions and in the absence of solid information we will never completely know.
Yet there are those who, for whatever reason, feel the need to excuse ND as though they had no part in this.

People judge based on performance. Kevin and fan-friends blame ND for this whole thing but so far, ND seems to doing pretty well since they stopped RRT. However, Kevin is still up to his same old tricks. It's exactly like how it was between WGF and Defiance back when they split, with most people blaming the chinese manufacturer for taking over WGF. Except WGF went on to do good stuff while Defiance still couldn't get their act together. It's pretty obvious which party is the screw-up in that case

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Merijeek wrote:

 n815e wrote:
When we wade past Kevin's bull and get to the heart of it, it certainly seems reasonable that some of the points made are true.

ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.

Nope. The major quality problem wasn't down to the designs, it was down to the way they were cut for production.

So all the people that have complained about soft or missing details, that have complained about fragile parts, that have complained about lack of poseability, that's all down to the way they were cut for production. Got it.

You do remember that the factory had to redo the 3D files right? Even the great Kevin said so.

As I said before, we can nitpick over whether PB is 90% to blame or 80% to blame, but the end result is still that they are the majority to blame, and they are the ones in a position to progress. They are the ones allegedly setting up conference calls. They are the ones allegedly sorting things out with the factory. They are the ones with the most to gain and the most to lose (they have the inventory, they are the ones trying to sell it).

They are the ones who will either push on to wave 2, or faff about until things collapse. They are the ones who are on a clock, because minis gamers are not going to be dropping giant loads of money on a game line that takes 2 years to get their second wave to market. At this rate, 3D printing will become viable at homes around the world before Kev and Co manage to get their gak together (and yes I'm aware that's probably years or more away, the point stands).

 Forar wrote:
They are the ones who will either push on to wave 2, or faff about until things collapse. They are the ones who are on a clock, because minis gamers are not going to be dropping giant loads of money on a game line that takes 2 years to get their second wave to market.

The other thing to consider is that even if they do conclude Wave 2, with the huge delay in release, are they really going to hold out on some items, to stagger the releases? It seems unlikely, but if they don't, they're looking at the same problem, moving forward.

I mean, I know I'm giving them best circumstance, but bear with me, and accept the hypothetical that the re-release is successful, and there is a market in the Malifaux or Infinity range of success. They get Wave 2 up and running and ready according to their current timeline. Backers get their product at or around end of June, 2016. What's PB's blueprint for success moving forward?

Do they release everything in Wave 2 to the public immediately after that? At which point, they've got to consider how long it'll be before they release anything new after that. There doesn't appear to be much that wasn't covered in the campaign other than the Cat's Eye. So that means moving on to another generation. Which, given PB's track record, isn't going to come quickly, so you're looking at several years before another significant expansion comes out. Which means a problem with pacing and stagnation. There's also the issue that PB remain limited by the IP. Once all three generations are out, what's really left for them to do? Sure, other IP's are limited by the universe (Star Wars, Star Trek), but they've usually got a much more substantial pool from which to pull. Or, they can just make crap up. Whereas the Robotech universe seems to be significantly confined, and with nothing new from Harmony Gold, what's there to add? Sure, the movie (if it eventuates, I'm still skeptical), might add something. Or, in Hollywood fashion, it might make itself incompatible with what's before. I also have significant doubts PB would retain licensing or if they do, it'll only be for the obsolete material, if the Robotech movie goes ahead. Too much money in merchandising on something like that for it to remain where it is.

On the other hand, if they hold stuff back, you run into potential issues of another sort. Tournament/Organized Play. Simply put, do you allow, or disallow backer supplied product, that hasn't been released at retail yet? For home play, it's not an issue, that's up to the participants. But for organized play, is John allowed to field his MACII Monster, even though it's not due for retail release for another year? If you don't, you are going to annoy backers who want to play with the toys they paid for three years earlier. If you do, you're going to annoy retail purchasers, who feel they're being forced into Ebay (assuming there is sufficient supply, remember, the hypothetical is that there is a decent market moving forward), to not be at a competitive disadvantage. Because even if things are perfectly balanced (not that I expect them to be, when some of the current options aren't close, looking at you Zentradi Heavy Artillery vs Phalanx), there's an intrinsic advantage to just plain unit diversity. If you know your opponent only has access to 4 different unit types, it's easier to devise how to beat them, than if they have access to 12 different types.

So what's PB's out? Assuming they're able to get Wave 2 processed in time, how do they make this a success long term? Because if it's just a big release in July, and nothing planned moving forward, it's just going to collapse under stagnation again. And if that's the case, what's the point?

That would be true of any normal company, but when has Palladium ever demonsrtated forward thinking?

Even if by some miracle wave two comes out this is it for rrt. This has been such an ordeal for PB that this project has probably scared Kevin into never making another minis game ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
He's to old to adapt to an ever changing market and it doesn't help that he is biased to rpg books because it's not as hard to produce as a minis game.

Doesn't matter, ND set the stage and did a gakky job. PB's lack of oversight let it happen. Then their continuing lack of oversight made things worse. This was treated like a revenue source and never given much import. PB tends to just want the glory and not do any of the work. This has nothing to do with my stuff but all with how they have not done jack in the last several months because they are, by their own admission, concentrating on everything but RRT. That is also the source of my continuing frustration, the way RRT is treated like a red-headed step child.

Morgan Vening wrote:
The other thing to consider is that even if they do conclude Wave 2, with the huge delay in release, are they really going to hold out on some items, to stagger the releases? It seems unlikely, but if they don't, they're looking at the same problem, moving forward.

My guess is that they'll just dump everything all at once onto the market. Remember, they always planned to split up stuff into two retail waves to stagger releases somewhat but it wasn't supposed to be the case for backers who were supposed to get stuff many months early (lol... remember that "promise"?!?! ha!) If the current floating rumor/gossip is true and they are hurting for cash and they do despite that manage to get out wave 2 sometime in 2016, I really doubt they'll hold back. If true, they'll need all the cash they can get as soon as they can get it.

I mean, I know I'm giving them best circumstance, but bear with me, and accept the hypothetical that the re-release is successful, and there is a market in the Malifaux or Infinity range of success. They get Wave 2 up and running and ready according to their current timeline. Backers get their product at or around end of June, 2016. What's PB's blueprint for success moving forward?

Do they release everything in Wave 2 to the public immediately after that? At which point, they've got to consider how long it'll be before they release anything new after that. There doesn't appear to be much that wasn't covered in the campaign other than the Cat's Eye. So that means moving on to another generation. Which, given PB's track record, isn't going to come quickly, so you're looking at several years before another significant expansion comes out.

They could effectively turn things like conventional vehicles and the cat's eye and advanced rules into a wave 2.5... but I suspect since those are the low hanging fruit we'll get them (other than the cat's eye) next year as the new products on hand for the "relaunch" of RRPGT instead of wave 2 that will be inexplicably delayed yet again to Xmas 2016. I don't obviously know if their current license will cover movie designs (I doubt it) but if it does then I could see them trying to capitalize that at the expense of the other eras. In the more likely case that it doesn't (or the movie simply is still on the drawing board) then I see them going to other eras possibly even if they haven't completed wave 2. At that point, wave 2 will be an massive outgoing cost and they'll instead prefer to look to the future (and more importantly additional condition free easy money!) with other eras. I predict they'll be hesitant to use KS crowdfunding so maybe they'll try doing on their own on their website like with the RPGs; if they do that, I fully expect it to be a relative failure compared to macross for several reasons. The (funding) well is poisoned at that point over three years of incompetence, other eras have always been less popular than macross, and likely the conditions they'll put into any very one sided contract will discourage some of those who actually read it. When that inevitably doesn't reach a level that they want/need, I could see them "relaunching" the crowdfunding on kickstarter reluctantly and not doing much better. At that point they'll blame everyone but themselves except in some token flattering way ("we made a mistake... in trusting others so much!" for example).

So what's PB's out?

Clearly they don't need one. Didn't you read their BBB responses? We've already gotten more than we deserve despite only getting less than half the sculpts promised! Their out in case that doesn't work is just to delay, delay, delay.

All of the above is predicated on the idea that they will actually succeed in releasing wave 2 in 2016... which frankly is one of the least possible outcomes I see given the complete waste of a year that 2015 has apparently turned into with nothing new to show for all those months since February.

PB probably thinks mini games work like their RPG products, which only need new products every few years or so. So several years in between releases is perfectly acceptable to them

Asterios wrote:
hmm, why does this not sound like Kevin, would love to see the actual police reports and such and why no insurance?

EMBEZZLEMENT CASE AND FINANCIAL DIFFICULTIES
''Siembieda stated that he had not wanted to make public Sheiring's identity out of the fear that overzealous fans might get into trouble by committing acts of reprisal.''

....mine is an EVIL laugh!



But, you know, ''overzealous fans'' seeking retribution for the self-titled''Crisis of Treachery''®™, involving non-digital artwork of an imaginary, hyper-inflated value?

Yeah that always read like a "Don't mess with him. *wink* that could be bad. *wink*." sort of thing in there when I read it.

Sining wrote:

Do you?
PB is definitely not the partner of HG and yet HG is on the box.
You might claim you're not a PB fan but you've pretty much defended them until recently, even with this whole trying to shift blame to ND thing.

You made a definite claim on their financial arrangement, not me. So why are you asking me if I know what it is. You stated it, back it up.
It doesn't matter if you think I'm a PB fan or not, really. When you dismiss people who have different opinions with "PB fan" or "White Knight", etc. It's actually meaningless and shows that you can't accept other people disagreeing with you on matters of opinion. Resorting to name calling, labeling and such is more of a reflection on you than me.

If there was simply a contractor-employer relationship, why is ND's logo on the boxes alongside PB's and HG's. I don't have my personal logo alongside my employer's.

The plastic manufacturer's logo isn't on the boxes, either. Neither is PB's printer's. Or the surface shipping company's. Or USPS'...
It's rather unusual for a contractor to have their logo featured on a product.

If it wasn't, how else would they sucker all those people into backing it thinking it's a ND project /s
As it is, you have no idea what the agreement was between them or if ND having their logo on the box is simply part of the initial contract. You're just inferring a LOT from that one thing. By that logic, if CMON puts Eric Langs name onto their boxes, he must be a partner right? Or when I read a visual novel and it has the artist name on it along with the writers, they must be partners right?
Or do you just not understand what a partnership is?

Attributing authorship is not the same as putting another company's logo on your products when they are your contractor. There is no doubt that the relationship between PB and ND was much better before the project started to fall apart and ND decided to bail.
You made specific claims about their financial relationship without knowing any of the details, but want to hold me to a different standard? Why is that?
I wrote "ND and PB were effectively partners in this", the key word being "effectively". I made no claims about actual legal partnerships.
You, on the other hand, made a claim about their financial arrangement with no actual knowledge.

We all have differences of opinions and in the absence of solid information we will never completely know.
Yet there are those who, for whatever reason, feel the need to excuse ND as though they had no part in this.

People judge based on performance. Kevin and fan-friends blame ND for this whole thing but so far, ND seems to doing pretty well since they stopped RRT. However, Kevin is still up to his same old tricks. It's exactly like how it was between WGF and Defiance back when they split, with most people blaming the chinese manufacturer for taking over WGF. Except WGF went on to do good stuff while Defiance still couldn't get their act together. It's pretty obvious which party is the screw-up in that case

Are we seriously meant to believe that ND didn't screw up in the past because they are doing better today?

You do remember that the factory had to redo the 3D files right? Even the great Kevin said so.

Yes. Does that mean that ND, who had no experience whatsoever in designing models in this scale, did a perfect job and it is all down the Chinese manufacturer, now? Great, let's blame "the Chinese". Weren't ND supposed to be experts regarding plastic miniatures manufacture? Was it ND that chose Chinese production? Was it ND that then subsequently used incompatible software? ND is completely blameless for the problems and were professional in all manners, yet didn't bother to research some basic facts such as software compatibility? Got it.

I guess asking people to be reasonable here was asking too much. There seem to be a lot of people emotionally invested in Palladium Books and Kevin S.

 n815e wrote:

Are we seriously meant to believe that ND didn't screw up in the past because they are doing better today?

You do remember that the factory had to redo the 3D files right? Even the great Kevin said so.

Yes. Does that mean that ND, who had no experience whatsoever in designing models in this scale, did a perfect job and it is all down the Chinese manufacturer, now? Great, let's blame "the Chinese". Weren't ND supposed to be experts regarding plastic miniatures manufacture? Was it ND that chose Chinese production? Was it ND that then subsequently used incompatible software? ND is completely blameless for the problems and were professional in all manners, yet didn't bother to research some basic facts such as software compatibility? Got it.

I guess asking people to be reasonable here was asking too much. There seem to be a lot of people emotionally invested in Palladium Books and Kevin S.

ND MAY have screwed up in the past, but the very fact that they ARE doing better today show that they are doing better than PB - screwing up today, just like we did in your father's day!

And as to ND, I don't believe they did a PERFECT job, but they certainly aren't the worst company in the frame.

1/. Given both recent and ancient history, it's more likely that PB are the cause [directly OR indirectly] of the MAJORITY of the problems being seen up to now. Especially as ND walked away (possibly breathing a sigh of relief) a year or more ago now. [although it certainly seems like PB have followed suit.

2/. Do you KNOW that ND used incompatible software? Or could it just possibly be that ND were under the impression that a particular manufacturer was to be used and used software they knew to be compatible with that manufacturer, then PB used the old "Bait and Switch" routine to a cheaper manufacturer assuming that the files would still be good?

When all is said and done, I'm not trying to throw PB under the bus, but I do know that ND CAN'T be blamed for PB's lack of communication in the last few weeks, or the last few months. So I am going with my gut feeling and what little information I do have on PBs's general behaviour. Neither of which mitigate in PB's favour, unfortunately.

I think it's a detestable tactic, but people do it because people are people. Some do it more than others. Labeling someone a hater is the same as labeling someone a Democrat or Republican, it is a way to mentally dismiss their opinions as unimportant and colored and make them appear as close minded. Overall the people that are the first to take this tactic to heart are the most ignorant and close minded of all. Like I said, it's human nature to try to belittle opinions that differ from your own.

 n815e wrote:

Sining wrote:

Do you?
PB is definitely not the partner of HG and yet HG is on the box.
You might claim you're not a PB fan but you've pretty much defended them until recently, even with this whole trying to shift blame to ND thing.

You made a definite claim on their financial arrangement, not me. So why are you asking me if I know what it is. You stated it, back it up.
It doesn't matter if you think I'm a PB fan or not, really. When you dismiss people who have different opinions with "PB fan" or "White Knight", etc. It's actually meaningless and shows that you can't accept other people disagreeing with you on matters of opinion. Resorting to name calling, labeling and such is more of a reflection on you than me.

If there was simply a contractor-employer relationship, why is ND's logo on the boxes alongside PB's and HG's. I don't have my personal logo alongside my employer's.

The plastic manufacturer's logo isn't on the boxes, either. Neither is PB's printer's. Or the surface shipping company's. Or USPS'...
It's rather unusual for a contractor to have their logo featured on a product.

If it wasn't, how else would they sucker all those people into backing it thinking it's a ND project /s
As it is, you have no idea what the agreement was between them or if ND having their logo on the box is simply part of the initial contract. You're just inferring a LOT from that one thing. By that logic, if CMON puts Eric Langs name onto their boxes, he must be a partner right? Or when I read a visual novel and it has the artist name on it along with the writers, they must be partners right?
Or do you just not understand what a partnership is?

Attributing authorship is not the same as putting another company's logo on your products when they are your contractor. There is no doubt that the relationship between PB and ND was much better before the project started to fall apart and ND decided to bail.
You made specific claims about their financial relationship without knowing any of the details, but want to hold me to a different standard? Why is that?
I wrote "ND and PB were effectively partners in this", the key word being "effectively". I made no claims about actual legal partnerships.
You, on the other hand, made a claim about their financial arrangement with no actual knowledge.

We all have differences of opinions and in the absence of solid information we will never completely know.
Yet there are those who, for whatever reason, feel the need to excuse ND as though they had no part in this.

People judge based on performance. Kevin and fan-friends blame ND for this whole thing but so far, ND seems to doing pretty well since they stopped RRT. However, Kevin is still up to his same old tricks. It's exactly like how it was between WGF and Defiance back when they split, with most people blaming the chinese manufacturer for taking over WGF. Except WGF went on to do good stuff while Defiance still couldn't get their act together. It's pretty obvious which party is the screw-up in that case

Are we seriously meant to believe that ND didn't screw up in the past because they are doing better today?

You do remember that the factory had to redo the 3D files right? Even the great Kevin said so.

Yes. Does that mean that ND, who had no experience whatsoever in designing models in this scale, did a perfect job and it is all down the Chinese manufacturer, now? Great, let's blame "the Chinese". Weren't ND supposed to be experts regarding plastic miniatures manufacture? Was it ND that chose Chinese production? Was it ND that then subsequently used incompatible software? ND is completely blameless for the problems and were professional in all manners, yet didn't bother to research some basic facts such as software compatibility? Got it.

I guess asking people to be reasonable here was asking too much. There seem to be a lot of people emotionally invested in Palladium Books and Kevin S.

and yet when the evidence is presented you ignore it, that sounds like a fan friend to me, you claim PB and ND are effectively a partnership, how is that? from what i've seen ND got crapped on and then some. and even ND has stated they were "Hired to design the minis and write up the initial rules" now what part of that do you not understand? what part of that sounds like ND and PB are partners? you like to keep glossing over that statement made by Ninja John and even stated by PB. that sounds like a fan friend of PB trying to shift blame elsewhere when even PB says it is not so.

as to software compatibility that always naggled me some, both parties claimed there was some, but neither party blamed the other, which is unusual especially with PB who likes to blame everyone. especially since there was no issue about the Zentraedi you know the Battlepod sprues we saw before the file incompatibility. so how can the same company get one groups files right and yet the other groups files wrong? ofrget the fact both groups were designed differently or show obvious signs of being done by 2 separate companies.

choosing Chinese Production is smart not stupid, trying to get the items made in the US is not smart since it would have cost like 4-5 times as much (thats including overseas shipping) and thats even if they could find one who did it.

Also people are not saying ND didn't screw up, only that ND has learned from their mistakes unlike PB who has a "0" learning curve since they learn nothing haven't you noticed they still live in the 80's ?

and then the final nail in the coffin for PB is that ND has been away from the project for over a year, they have not been involved with it, and yet PB still has done nothing and claim they are still working on the mini designs, well I ask who is working on them? this is considered a major shift from the details given prior to joining this project, in fact its an issue that can be considered a contract breaker leaving PB at fault and at the point of having to give refunds to those who choose them.

PB broke the Contract with us backers.

So, I noticed that RRT is going clearance in a lot of places online and physically. So, if you want any Wave 1 minis, now is the time to strike.

CSI still has stuff around 1/3 off. If it's anything like last year, I'd wait at least a couple of days to see if they drop to 1/2 or less. Getting $200 worth of stuff for $100 obviously being superior to getting $150 worth of stuff for $100 (assuming one lives in the US and aims for the free shipping).

Edit: that said, they're down to 13 Artillery Pod packs and 3 Spartan/Phalanx packs, so waiting might not be the best plan if either of those are a high priority.

PB and Kevin are a hard group to figure out for motivations.
They like glory/acclaim, money very much so.
They dislike work, accountability and spending money on anything but themselves.

I think their plan "moving forward" is thus:

- Try to pretty much make everyone forget about wave 2 and just continue with vague statements of activity if any grumblings are heard.
- They will get companies like GHQ or other inexpensive "local" alternatives to create more Robotech product one model release at a time.
- They have a "core" set and can flog new stuff all the time, they could get all comfortable on us and publish scenario and campaign guides with publishing and layouts and all those things they love!
- They will continue to hope fan/friends will step forward to do most of the legwork for them and flog new brilliant product that Kevin will claim as his own since what was presented was a lump of coal until he presented the pressure to create that diamond.

The maddening part is that we may never know what finally made them back away from wave 2.
I honestly think it was comparing the cost of production and sales of wave 1 and the GHQ model cost and Kevin figured China was a rip-off and did not want to see the pile of cash disappear.
Problem is, he cannot really touch it without good records IF he gets nailed with a lawsuit.
He may actually think he is unassailable and with a little denial help himself to the money anyway (narcissists are very good at that).
I think he would be counting on pulling a "poor me" and claiming that the next nearby expendable minion had "led him astray" and he was "too trusting".

Well, I suppose I could look at what deals are out there, a little bit of scratch building may be in order.

This is a mildly off-topic point, but the overall themes made by John Bain in regards to GamerGate apply here as well; reducing the camps to "Pro-PB" and "Con-PB" is more-than-slightly intellectually dishonest and only results in people yelling at each other endlessly because the person being argued with doesn't actually exist. As the name of his post says, this game supports more than two players, and there's plenty of room for varying opinions across the spectrum.

I suspect that ND did not have full experience with HIPS tooling, and thus it would be reasonable to assume (and it is an assumption) their designs would have been more in line with the PVC plastic they're used to working with. I do not recall ND doing any other HIPS projects, but that could simply be ignorance on my part. However, from watching other projects the demands of HIPS are quite hefty, especially if you do not go through the added expense of newer technologies, and if you don't have a factory with engineers willing to work with you then things can go very sideways very fast.

As Forar continues to repeat though, while that's certainly an issue that you could likely attribute to ND, it's far from the worst issue with the overall project thus far. A significant one when discussing a miniatures game? Certainly, but once the issue becomes a known quantity then you adjust for that and carry on; numerous projects have hit those same issues and, in fairness, have had similar delays. What those campaigns by and large have not done is told the backers that things were fine and everything was progressing and then ask them to believe that on faith; for the good campaigns if they said progress was being made, then they backed it up.

 Krinsath wrote:
What those campaigns by and large have not done is told the backers that things were fine and everything was progressing and then ask them to believe that on faith; for the good campaigns if they said progress was being made, then they backed it up.

This is the crux of the matter: we began to realize that if the supplier continues to say progress is being made: when can you legally claim they ARE NOT getting it done?
When can you call them on their bull-gak and say that after a few years enough is enough: give me my money or give me the stuff promised.
This is not a story of being unable to make the product, it is being unwilling to do it the way they agreed and are now stalling for some opportunity or idea to present itself.

Palladium clearly feels that there is no reasonable cutoff point according to their BBB statements. As long as they're "working" on the project with their one phone call a week, they seem to be under the impression that they can drag this into the 2020's and still meet both the spirit and letter of the contract 5,000+ individual contracts they agreed to. I obviously disagree and I personally think that point of time has passed after 2+ years of delays and that they should be offering both refunds as well as alternative product OF THE BACKER'S CHOOSING OF EQUAL VALUE AT THE ORIGINAL KS PRICES where applicable from their existing stock. For me personally, neither really would work. I don't want a refund of the unfulfilled value portion of my pledge and they no longer have anything I'd want (I would have accepted two robotech foam model bags instead of wave two but IIRC they said they sold out a few months ago).

A friend sent me this link today to a blog post (so salt as needed). I don't know if it was posted a while back (it's from June) here but it's an interesting read. From the title of the post to the content of the post, it seems like Palladium and Harmony Gold are two peas in a pod and a perfect fit.

http://futurewarstories.blogspot.com.au/2015/06/fws-broken-promises-robotech-sequels.html