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My only objection to that game is it needed more models. The table should have been swarming with pods and veritechs. Truly representing the chaotic nature of those battles from the TV show. Still...it's awesome to see people enjoying the game.

 Lynx7725 wrote:
I got to admit, I have to give it to the guy for having the imagination and follow through to create that table. I honestly won't have thought of that, but then again, I'm more a ground guy.

I am simultaneously impressed and somewhat appalled by that setup, to be honest. It's creative and the craftsmanship is good to excellent given the limitations the material and probably cost/ time represented, but for a convention-level event, it feels very... low budget. Not trying to insult the guy(s) who put in the effort, it just feels like something you throw together for a more private gaming group for a major event, not a national-level convention.

JohnHwangDD wrote:To be fair, pretty much any time a MAC-II is on the board, it's gonna be awesome.

Well awesome for someone at least..

I'm just impressed that anyone went through the trouble of making a 1/285-scale (14' long) SDF-1 for RRT. At all.

Also, a MAC-II is awesome for everyone.

Maybe that's from later in the game when a bunch have already been taken out?

Or were running low? Or decided to spend points on the MAC-II/Lancers/FPA/Gnerls (aka; shame players can't legitimately buy these...) instead of a swarm of the chaff?

I'm at work so I don't have the cards/my book on hand to stat things out, but assuming a 200-300 point game, those non-standard units would eat up a pretty good chunk of their allotment as I recall. Assuming a trio to start, the FPA's would be 100, and that Artillery squad would be a good amount as well. MAC-II with Destroid core or two (or supports, I'm counting at least 9 Destroids in one pic) would be a good number as well.

Not to tell you how it plays for builds, but if the person running it decided they wanted to play with things other than basic/command/recon pods and VT's/non-MAC destroids, while keeping it a reasonably sized game, I could see just from a few shots how that'd add up rapidly.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Also, a MAC-II is awesome for everyone.

"Reach out and touch someone..." indeed.

 Forar wrote:

... To Be Determined, eh?

:-(

Forar, we both know that's pronounced "soon".

And I'm sure they'll happily take a preorder.

Well, according to PB, they don't actually take money from people who pre-order their books.

So taking money at the time of 'pre-order' (*insert 2 pages of 'omg KS isn't a pre-order' debate here*) is something they save for very special folks that support their Miniatures projects and a handful of non-Kickstarter crowdfunding endeavors.

How lucky! :-D

 Forar wrote:
Well, according to PB, they don't actually take money from people who pre-order their books.

So taking money at the time of 'pre-order' (*insert 2 pages of 'omg KS isn't a pre-order' debate here*) is something they save for very special folks that support their Miniatures projects and a handful of non-Kickstarter crowdfunding endeavors.

How lucky! :-D

we're so special.

I hate what is going on with society these days...
Ghostbusters movie tanks and the studio blames the fans..
Palladium doesn't work on the funded kick starter and blames the backers..

Lie and blame someone else... I just hope those people realize they will not get any more of my money..

 Forar wrote:
I'm pretty sure I've seen one of those guys at Toronto cons. If it's the one I'm thinking of, I believe he was... I want to say Khyron at Comic Con 2015 or 2014.

Also, gosh, that table looks more impressive with a MAC-II, Lancers, Super VT's in modes I'm pretty sure haven't been officially made...

Almost like having more than just a dozen models to the line really fills things out. >.>

If its the guy i am thinking of his name is robert shrewing. He usually dresses as a zentraedi officer. I know him and he does the odd demo in the oshawa area. He is also the guy that ran demos all of saturday and sunday at anime north for the whopping compensation of his entry to the con covered (about 100 dollars) and 50% off the one figure he bought for his 18 hours of time doing the demos and his 4 hours or so travel time over the two days.

He is a good guy and is.....a die hard robotech guy (though not necessarily palladium) and will do whatever he can to try to make rrt work.

 Forar wrote:
I have no idea where that table was, but there is no "RPG section of the trade floor".

There's a trade floor, and it's full of vendors, and sometimes some of those vendors are near similar vendors, and sometimes they're not.

Edit: this is the Gencon floor map for the Vendors.

Note the "Family Fun Pavilion" and the "Entrepreneurs' Avenue", but there isn't a "CCG lane" or "Board Game Alley" or "Sci-Fi Land".

And for those interested, Palladium is booth 823. You can see what I mean about if you go up and down, you might not get to pass PB twice, as the booths below (817, 809, 803) block one north/south passage.

Also, in years past, PB have had the double sized booth (think a combined 829/833), so it was a much smaller presence this year.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Forar wrote:
I have no idea where that table was, but there is no "RPG section of the trade floor".

There's a trade floor, and it's full of vendors, and sometimes some of those vendors are near similar vendors, and sometimes they're not.

Edit: this is the Gencon floor map for the Vendors.

Note the "Family Fun Pavilion" and the "Entrepreneurs' Avenue", but there isn't a "CCG lane" or "Board Game Alley" or "Sci-Fi Land".

And for those interested, Palladium is booth 823. You can see what I mean about if you go up and down, you might not get to pass PB twice, as the booths below (817, 809, 803) block one north/south passage.

Also, in years past, PB have had the double sized booth (think a combined 829/833), so it was a much smaller presence this year.

looking at the map PB has a pretty decent location as in being on a main drag corner, but on the downside they are surrounded by companies that do a lot better then they do.


on a side note should I keep the Alpha's base like this or should I add grass to it? decided to stick with the paint scene since grass would look way too big against these minis.

You need to paint Invid flowers of life on the base.

 warboss wrote:


So apparently the episode scenario book is a fan production EDITED by the Roach that he's hoping (like his initial rules 4 years ago) will be picked up by Palladium.

Fixed that statement for you.

 Nesbet wrote:
Here you go:

That's pretty awesome! Thanks for posting the photos.

 warboss wrote:
While I have seen much better con setups (almost always from obsessive historical gamers, god bless them!), I think you're a bit harsh on that Lynx. It's better than anything I've seen for friendly tabletop games that didn't just depend on store terrain and it's definitely above average for gencon as well from my (again somewhat outdated) experience. It's certainly not as good as it could have been if he had spent hundreds of dollars and dozens of hours on it but I think it looks quite nice and is very creative as well.

I know. I appreciate the creativity and commitment to follow through on the idea. It's just that as a wargamer -- including being an obsessive historical gamer -- I know that with just a bit of material and logistical support from stores or manufacturers, that level of creativity and commitment can end up with a terrain board at a very high level.

With some money in raw material to work with and a storage solution, I can probably work up a permanent setup that has more fidelity and can easily be a centerpiece for conventions. Most miniature gamers appreciate a good looking terrain setup, and as iconic as the SDF-1 is, being able to fight ON it would have been a memorable thing for RRT players.

I just shake my head that PB apparently didn't bankroll a proper terrain project for use in conventions, instead opting for "as cheap as possible". While that's a laudable concept to pitch to consumers, it's yet another sign that PB doesn't really understand their target audience.

 Lynx7725 wrote:

 warboss wrote:
While I have seen much better con setups (almost always from obsessive historical gamers, god bless them!), I think you're a bit harsh on that Lynx. It's better than anything I've seen for friendly tabletop games that didn't just depend on store terrain and it's definitely above average for gencon as well from my (again somewhat outdated) experience. It's certainly not as good as it could have been if he had spent hundreds of dollars and dozens of hours on it but I think it looks quite nice and is very creative as well.

I know. I appreciate the creativity and commitment to follow through on the idea. It's just that as a wargamer -- including being an obsessive historical gamer -- I know that with just a bit of material and logistical support from stores or manufacturers, that level of creativity and commitment can end up with a terrain board at a very high level.

With some money in raw material to work with and a storage solution, I can probably work up a permanent setup that has more fidelity and can easily be a centerpiece for conventions. Most miniature gamers appreciate a good looking terrain setup, and as iconic as the SDF-1 is, being able to fight ON it would have been a memorable thing for RRT players.

I just shake my head that PB apparently didn't bankroll a proper terrain project for use in conventions, instead opting for "as cheap as possible". While that's a laudable concept to pitch to consumers, it's yet another sign that PB doesn't really understand their target audience.

people PB was not behind the SDF-1 set up that is all work of Peter Pidrak, not Thomas Roache who was running the PB authorised RRT games in another location and they use Dropzone Commander buildings and map boards (not even same scale but close)for their set up, the SDF-1 was done by Peter Pidrak and had nothing to do with PB, you give PB way too much credit in displaying.

I don't think Lynx is giving PB ANY credit for that table, Asterios.

He's just saying that PB SHOULD have done that a long while ago, to a better standard, to promote the game WE gave them money for.

And in that I agree.

It's a shame that, once again, we get proof that the 'fans' * are doing more work to keep RRT alive than the 'professionals' behind it

* 'fans'. I hate that word. Short for fanatics, and sounds like all they do is blow air around - which is probably true for PB's "White Knight" brigade, but not me. I prefer "Appreciator"

 Conrad Turner wrote:
I don't think Lynx is giving PB ANY credit for that table, Asterios.

He's just saying that PB SHOULD have done that a long while ago, to a better standard, to promote the game WE gave them money for.

And in that I agree.

It's a shame that, once again, we get proof that the 'fans' * are doing more work to keep RRT alive than the 'professionals' behind it

* 'fans'. I hate that word. Short for fanatics, and sounds like all they do is blow air around - which is probably true for PB's "White Knight" brigade, but not me. I prefer "Appreciator"

me i'm a fan of Robotech, but not of PB.

Let's say "enthusiasts"


And yeah, most of us are doing way more than Kevin and co. for the game.

 Conrad Turner wrote:
I don't think Lynx is giving PB ANY credit for that table, Asterios.

He's just saying that PB SHOULD have done that a long while ago, to a better standard, to promote the game WE gave them money for.

And in that I agree.

Agreed on all points:
- Lynx isn't creding PB for work they didn't do
- PB should have thrown a few $100s at him to make a higher-grade SDF-1 model to showcase RRT.
- Conrad has the right summary.

Personally, at this point I'd rather PB not piddle funds away for demo games and such, and instead focus on actually getting us Wave 2. I understand Lynx did that on his own initiative, and I suspect Roache's demo board was self-funded as well. I'd rather it stay that way, or else PB will find a dozen ways to squander the pittance they have left.

I think, at this point I'd even take a partial delivery, if PB would just fess up they screwed up and were out of funds. Not that I wouldn't try to get my pound of flesh from them, they have royally ticked me off with their feet-dragging and lies, but its better to have this KS declared dead than continue to drag it out even longer.

If that partial delivery is the Monster that I paid extra for, I'd be mostly OK with it.

If Kevin was smart, he would offer all Robotech Kickstarter backers full credit refund on all in stock Palladium RPG books in place of wave 2.
This would allow them to continue to take their time without any looming lawsuits that get greater changes with every day passing.
MSRP verses publish cost is maybe 20% being for material already produced with money already collected ; (Collected $200 and losing $40 their cost in stock books)
so he would be coming out better in the long run if most agreed to this.
And also give them copies of free Rifts Savage PDFs as an apology.. This would not cost them anything because of digital material.

I think we will hear a bankruptcy announcement before hearing anything close to this.

 Genoside07 wrote:
If Kevin was smart, he would offer all Robotech Kickstarter backers full credit refund on all in stock Palladium RPG books in place of wave 2.
This would allow them to continue to take their time without any looming lawsuits that get greater changes with every day passing.
MSRP verses publish cost is maybe 20% being for material already produced with money already collected ; (Collected $200 and losing $40 their cost in stock books)
so he would be coming out better in the long run if most agreed to this.
And also give them copies of free Rifts Savage PDFs as an apology.. This would not cost them anything because of digital material.

I think we will hear a bankruptcy announcement before hearing anything close to this.

Hell no. Most people want nothing to do with the RPG.

 Mike1975 wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
If Kevin was smart, he would offer all Robotech Kickstarter backers full credit refund on all in stock Palladium RPG books in place of wave 2.

Hell no. Most people want nothing to do with the RPG.

Exactly. The last thing I want is Palladium RPG crap that I can get for pennies on the dollar via eBay.

 Genoside07 wrote:
If Kevin was smart, he would offer all Robotech Kickstarter backers full credit refund on all in stock Palladium RPG books in place of wave 2.
This would allow them to continue to take their time without any looming lawsuits that get greater changes with every day passing.
MSRP verses publish cost is maybe 20% being for material already produced with money already collected ; (Collected $200 and losing $40 their cost in stock books)
so he would be coming out better in the long run if most agreed to this.
And also give them copies of free Rifts Savage PDFs as an apology.. This would not cost them anything because of digital material.

I think we will hear a bankruptcy announcement before hearing anything close to this.

and what about those who do not want any of PB's other gak ? like their RPG line and such, what about those people who want what was promised? what about thsoe people who paid for something and don't want anything to do with the other thing? backers did not buy RPG stuff they bought Robotech minis and they want them.

Asterios wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
If Kevin was smart, he would offer all Robotech Kickstarter backers full credit refund on all in stock Palladium RPG books in place of wave 2.
This would allow them to continue to take their time without any looming lawsuits that get greater changes with every day passing.
MSRP verses publish cost is maybe 20% being for material already produced with money already collected ; (Collected $200 and losing $40 their cost in stock books)
so he would be coming out better in the long run if most agreed to this.
And also give them copies of free Rifts Savage PDFs as an apology.. This would not cost them anything because of digital material.

I think we will hear a bankruptcy announcement before hearing anything close to this.

and what about those who do not want any of PB's other gak ? like their RPG line and such, what about those people who want what was promised? what about thsoe people who paid for something and don't want anything to do with the other thing? backers did not buy RPG stuff they bought Robotech minis and they want them.

Not getting our stuff sucks. But being continously led on suck even more. I would grudgingly take more RRT stock before RPG stock and I'd take more RRT over nothing/refund (and a refund before RPG stuff).

If the funds are gone (and they can prove they weren't misspent), can PB tell us we're out of luck and continue forward back to their old RPG tricks or do they have to offer refunds for the unfulfilled portion? I mean, KS *is* supposed to be an investment - if the declared it's tanked, must PB legally come up with refunds or is it a case that the debt is just written off? I can't exactly remember the KS terms other than "the creator must make every effort to fulfill all goals".

Some of the Gamer Goggles gencon videos are coming up on their channel over the past few days. As an example of the hard hitting type of journalism we should expect in the interview with the nefarious Kevin Siembieda, the video opens with "I forgot what I was going to ask you" and follows up with the poignant question of "You ran into a couple of delays that turned out to be blessings in disguise?"... on a kickstarter where the company watched the canadian dollar tank in value roughly 20% while they were delayed due to inappropriate digital sculpting/mould manufacturing issues but kept their money in CAD despite needing to pay the manufacturer in the US in (no shock) USD... and had to cut two different stretch goals that were funded with no replacement of those models in metal/resin despite their pre-funding promise to do exactly that in that situation. They spin in that they "added" extra bits but they didn't enlarge any sprues so the decision to cut two whole sprues/models from the rewards had no relation to how they organized the bits on the other sprues. So, yeah, a blessing in disguise with that delay. Don't get me wrong... the HG kickstarter even with the above (and the rougly one year delay) is set to deliver 90% of what they set out to a bit less than a year late and they were relatively open about the issues unlike this Robotech gak show... but it was certainly NOT a "blessing in disguise" to retract two funded stretch goals despite the leading softball question asked by the Matt. If you watch the other videos, you'll see the same softball unprepared "interview" style as well.




I'd expect given the pace that the Robotech interview will be up later today or tomorrow.

It's been tossed around a few times over the years that they could potentially try that with excess RRT product instead.

Yes, yes, yes, I'm aware that most people don't want more of it.

But PB owes the backers a big pile of RRT stuff. And they allegedly have a big pile of RRT wave 1 laying around.

If I were sitting there, and looked at the hundreds of thousands owed the backers, and the pallets of core and expansion boxes sitting on the warehouse floor collecting dust, it would make sense to at least try to work out how they could turn existing product into reduced obligations.

Yes, some backers would refuse this outright. Perhaps many. Perhaps a lot. But it would be a more realistic good faith effort to make good on what they owe us than anything else they've done for years.

This gets a lot messier when it comes to the items actually ordered from the pledge manager, granted. I doubt many (if any) backers would be willing to trade the MAC-II they've wanted for years for, I dunno, a pair of VTs more than the collection they already have.

So, again, because reading comprehension is hard for some people, I'm NOT saying this is a good or ideal or desirable outcome from the *Backers* perspective. But from *PB's* perspective, it would be a way to turn existing material into reduced obligations. And hell, free up some warehouse space, not that I imagine they have big piles of crates in every day demanding floorspace of their own, but product collecting dust isn't doing them any good. Having X,000 core boxes on hand isn't remotely useful if they're moving a paltry fraction of them per year.

Again again, I know that obviously this would be controversial, and would piss off a lot of people. It's not a perfect idea. But at this point I might accept a reasonable trade to make good on what they owe me.

Another 5 or 6 core boxes wouldn't nearly make up for what they do owe us in terms of value, but 'stuff that exists' holds some appeal over 'stuff that will probably never exist'. Not much different from accepting a refund that was for a fraction of the value, as some people do in bad investments or other situations (not that they'll even give us that much).

But we've talked about this stuff before. The only relevant detail is that... there aren't any relevant details. Seems they'll spend at least another year, probably two, probably more, possibly forever, failing to complete this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, this thread is moving today.

 Stormonu wrote:
If the funds are gone (and they can prove they weren't misspent), can PB tell us we're out of luck and continue forward back to their old RPG tricks or do they have to offer refunds for the unfulfilled portion? I mean, KS *is* supposed to be an investment - if the declared it's tanked, must PB legally come up with refunds or is it a case that the debt is just written off? I can't exactly remember the KS terms other than "the creator must make every effort to fulfill all goals".

From my reading of the KS TOU, it's basically that they're expected to fulfill backer pledges, and if they can't, then they're supposed to refund what they couldn't do, or provide alternative compensation.

That said, I don't know if I've ever seen a 'partial failure' of this size. I know there've been scams and failures for some 100k+ campaigns, but does anyone know of, like, a 7 figure one that got partway out and then just declared it over?

There's the cooler one that is making people angry asking for more for shipping or whatever, and a few big ones that are still trudging along after years. I guess Ogre, and the random odds and ends they failed to produce but only a few people seem to care about (because I know it'll get brought up)?

Usually KS's seem to deliver, deliver with issues (not quite what people expected, not on time, crappy communications, whatever), or fail.

A 'partial failure' isn't something that comes up a lot, at least in the circles I've trodden on.

I fully expect that if wave 2 even partially happens we are going to see a request for more shipping money.

 Forar wrote:
It's been tossed around a few times over the years that they could potentially try that with excess RRT product instead.

Yes, yes, yes, I'm aware that most people don't want more of it.

But PB owes the backers a big pile of RRT stuff. And they allegedly have a big pile of RRT wave 1 laying around.

If I were sitting there, and looked at the hundreds of thousands owed the backers, and the pallets of core and expansion boxes sitting on the warehouse floor collecting dust, it would make sense to at least try to work out how they could turn existing product into reduced obligations.

Yes, some backers would refuse this outright. Perhaps many. Perhaps a lot. But it would be a more realistic good faith effort to make good on what they owe us than anything else they've done for years.

This gets a lot messier when it comes to the items actually ordered from the pledge manager, granted. I doubt many (if any) backers would be willing to trade the MAC-II they've wanted for years for, I dunno, a pair of VTs more than the collection they already have.

So, again, because reading comprehension is hard for some people, I'm NOT saying this is a good or ideal or desirable outcome from the *Backers* perspective. But from *PB's* perspective, it would be a way to turn existing material into reduced obligations. And hell, free up some warehouse space, not that I imagine they have big piles of crates in every day demanding floorspace of their own, but product collecting dust isn't doing them any good. Having X,000 core boxes on hand isn't remotely useful if they're moving a paltry fraction of them per year.

Again again, I know that obviously this would be controversial, and would piss off a lot of people. It's not a perfect idea. But at this point I might accept a reasonable trade to make good on what they owe me.

Another 5 or 6 core boxes wouldn't nearly make up for what they do owe us in terms of value, but 'stuff that exists' holds some appeal over 'stuff that will probably never exist'. Not much different from accepting a refund that was for a fraction of the value, as some people do in bad investments or other situations (not that they'll even give us that much).

But we've talked about this stuff before. The only relevant detail is that... there aren't any relevant details. Seems they'll spend at least another year, probably two, probably more, possibly forever, failing to complete this.

big problem with that option is cost of S&H lets face it I highly doubt PB could even afford to pay the Shipping costs to send out substitutes to even a small portion of the backers (say 10-20%) so even that is not an option. a refund might still be the cheaper option overall.

 Swabby wrote:
I fully expect that if wave 2 even partially happens we are going to see a request for more shipping money.

not sure if they could without treading into what is known as false advertising.