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I decided to try a little math just to get perspective (lord knows I need it).

So I figured out about how many "distinct" models we get.
So assuming artillery pods is 2, VT variants are 3 (including Rick and Roy, VEF and VF all as 3 each) except experimental and armored is 1, Zent infantry is 2... etc.
So including all resin, objectives and the monster... long story short: 49 models

The kick-starter launched April 18 2013 and remember, much of this stuff was underway and "nearly complete" for December 2013 full delivery.
As of today, calculating work days excluding weekends they have had 1013 since then <Excel formula: =networkdays(4/18/2013,today())>.
So, they were able to spend as long as 20.7days per model on this project or more.

You can fuss on some of the details, I showed my math so adjust as you see fit.
Pretty much a working month per model type.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I decided to look into Rogue Heroes a bit since it has some relevance to RRT as another Palladium IP provider.

First off it IS incorporated in Canada so it is good to see finances separated from a citizen:
https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDtls.html?corpId=9515801&V_TOKEN=1488820275837&crpNm=&crpNmbr=&bsNmbr=796343291RC0001
Benefits are nicely laid out here:
https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cd-dgc.nsf/eng/cs06641.html
I am a little concerned that it is registered to an address that appears to be a private residence.
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/1170+Bruce+Ave,+Windsor,+ON+N9A+4Y4/@42.3040786,-83.0371144,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x883b2d01e783891f:0x894f19c0afcdfd9a!8m2!3d42.3042039!4d-83.0366611!6m1!1e1?hl=en
The facebook page is trucking along fine:
https://www.facebook.com/RogueHeroesPublishing
Seeing the artwork of say the "saloon" I shudder to think what MDC damage weapons would do in that environment.
Very much looking like an Imperial Assault type game BUT you can only shake-up real-world map based boards so-much: it worked fine for D&D.

So some appropriate steps look like they have been taken, like with any Kickstarter: the devil is in the details.
I will minimum pledge for the KS because it is of interest to monitor.
I throw the gauntlet and say "convince me" that Palladium Books cannot reach into this and mess it up.
Then the second step is to see if Rogue Heroes has the right plans in place to pull this off.

If they want this thing to fund, those questions to be answered will be the #1 thing to address.
Getting some of their stuff both in floor plans and models printed off would be a good means of demonstration as well.
Some "getting started" game rules would be good to peruse as well.

The Savage Worlds: Rifts went very well and I was hard pressed to find fault with it other than my usual issue.
Trying to keep an open mind but I am still bothered by Palladium getting any money at all.
Most of the harm has been done by the licensing being paid for so not much to say now.

Oh look, a way to do an update that doesn't equate to nothing more than "IT'S EVERYONE ELSE'S FAULT(TMMTMTMM!)"

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/webeharebrained/battletech/posts/1824640?ref=backer_project_update

I do have to wonder.....the concept of crowd =funding was to give the little guy the ability to do something they could not do via traditional means....so at what point is it just not ethical to keep doing kickstarters when you have shown yourself to be quite successful and likely capable of going a more traditional route? Seems to me that the more you use the CF method the less likely you will have customers at retail which seems...silly but a realistic outcome as more and more would go thru KS to get the better deal.

I mean what is the point if only a few thousand people end up with your product spread worldwide? Wouldn't the goal to be successful at normal retail and become self sustaining?

 jaymz wrote:
I do have to wonder.....the concept of crowd =funding was to give the little guy the ability to do something they could not do via traditional means....so at what point is it just not ethical to keep doing kickstarters when you have shown yourself to be quite successful and likely capable of going a more traditional route? Seems to me that the more you use the CF method the less likely you will have customers at retail which seems...silly but a realistic outcome as more and more would go thru KS to get the better deal.

I mean what is the point if only a few thousand people end up with your product spread worldwide? Wouldn't the goal to be successful at normal retail and become self sustaining?

The latest trend is the 2nd edition Kickstarter, to try to pump life into DOA games

 jaymz wrote:
at what point is it just not ethical to keep doing kickstarters when you have shown yourself to be quite successful and likely capable of going a more traditional route?

I mean what is the point if only a few thousand people end up with your product spread worldwide? Wouldn't the goal to be successful at normal retail and become self sustaining?

That point simply does not exist in the world of miniatures boardgaming. The cost of creating a miniatures boardgame is very high, due to the exceptionally high tooling costs, but the take rate can be very low. High upfront capital costs, unknown demand = high risk. If these concepts were to be done for traditional retail they would likely all be produced and sold as the minimum viable product, with every corner cut for the same $100 that backers currently pay. The vastly reduced value per dollar suggests that the product would likely not take off, due to much reduced word of mouth and lack of marketing push. And likely, the volumes are lower, because the manufacturer doesn't want to get stuck with dead inventory.

The point is to create the game. If the demand is sound, and it takes off, then it's not too hard to run off additional production runs like Zombicide did.

For miniatures boardgames, specifically, the ability to precisely gauge demand via confirmed, prepaid preorder is unparalled. It's arguably the "perfect" match for crowdfunding.

Merijeek wrote:
Oh look, a way to do an update that doesn't equate to nothing more than "IT'S EVERYONE ELSE'S FAULT(TMMTMTMM!)"

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/webeharebrained/battletech/posts/1824640?ref=backer_project_update

Hey! I backed that one.
Their issues are understandable.
I like these guys, their past games have been good.
It is all about history and honesty: it works.
They have a good track record.
No worries here.

Hey, I would expect most people around here to have backed Battletech.

They had an issue, and instead of being a bunch of dicks about it, they actually admitted it and acted like adults.

How refreshing.

I have a feeling a number of folks in this thread backed both the Defiance kickstarter and the BT one (I would have, if I hadn't put a self-moratorium on KS's).

Merijeek wrote:
Hey, I would expect most people around here to have backed Battletech.

They had an issue, and instead of being a bunch of dicks about it, they actually admitted it and acted like adults.

How refreshing.

Yeah, I backed too, and I'm not worried in the least. It will be a tad later than I hoped for, but nothing unexpected. AND they're being pretty clear about their problems and where exactly they are in the process, so there's no gripes.

 jaymz wrote:
I do have to wonder.....the concept of crowd =funding was to give the little guy the ability to do something they could not do via traditional means....so at what point is it just not ethical to keep doing kickstarters when you have shown yourself to be quite successful and likely capable of going a more traditional route? Seems to me that the more you use the CF method the less likely you will have customers at retail which seems...silly but a realistic outcome as more and more would go thru KS to get the better deal.

I mean what is the point if only a few thousand people end up with your product spread worldwide? Wouldn't the goal to be successful at normal retail and become self sustaining?

To elaborate a bit more on JHDD's points, I'm not sure "ethics" ever enters into the equation for private businesses. If GW, for example, did a crowd-funding campaign for plastic Sisters of Battle (self-hosted of course; they don't share money) people might cry foul since GW is a publicly traded company with actual investors to provide capital. However, as a gauge of interest to confirm that they're not putting said investors money at risk to develop that range it's an excellent data collection mechanism so it's not unethical so much as tacky.

Where I think most KS projects run aground on the after-project success is how incredibly small the crowdfunding community really is; it's a niche within a niche. Look at the massive success of KD:M 1.5, it still "only" had 20k backers and that was the high-water mark of gaming kickstarters to-date. Even with their slowdowns I'm thinking that's likely what GW expects each SM kit they produce to shift with ease though obviously GW doesn't disclose such numbers. There's a big disparity there, largely caused by GW having a retail presence already. Most companies do not have that, don't have the distribution channels and don't have the framework in place to build it.

I think the question becomes what is the intent of the creator. The aforementioned KD:M has little-to-no interest in retail. It is very much a passion project of the creator that would never get made otherwise; the content and scope of it is just beyond what any traditional publisher would have taken on (and likely remains so even with the established strength of the brand). If a creator intends to go to retail then as John said they ideally just want to break-even on KS which leaves them with the capital investments complete if there's a demand at retail. Absent a distribution chain like Reaper's though, that's going to fail to pan out long-term more often than not, and it presumes the creator has their own funds to cover the retail run; even if substantially cheaper in comparison it's not "free" if you have another 20+ models to go. Trying to get project+retail stock out of a KS seems a likely point of overreach, which with hindsight for RRT seems to be borne out.

For most companies KS can become a vicious circle, especially if they are not a production/distribution house themselves. It will see many cool projects made, but the path to being able to not need KS at all is not something that seems particularly likely. It's like an addicting drug; some people on it seem to be able to be reasonably functional (CMON), some people occasionally fall apart (Mantic springs to mind, but many others), and some end up in an alley rooting through garbage trying to find enough metal cans for their next fix (PB...).

Crowd funding would be very hard for even a large company to resist due to the benefits for them.
The backer assumes all the risk, the creator company does not even have to bring forward any capital for what really is a product R&D/Development effort.
You already have your potential buyer's money up front for product and you may even change the parameters of the product to make it cheaper regardless if your customer agrees with it or not.

I have seen many cases where pre-order has been bad and I had sworn off it due to the disadvantages are worse than the benefits.
Crowd funding is just going the step further where the company will not even start development without a pre-order so market research and funding rolled into one..
The only time I could see a successful company not use kickstarter is greed: they take 14-15% off the top.
BUT if you are happy with advertising on their site and the means of dealing with investors, it may be viewed as a deal.
Worry about slitting your own throat in retail is balanced by how much you want to entice investors into your project with rewards.

The way I look at it, if the design is a good idea and there is a need for it in the market, it will come out to retail in most cases.
Where we got stuck here is when a company holds the IP of a product we want and it is them or no-one and they are too cheap to bother unless the money is there.

Like with Rogue Heroes, licensing had to be paid, company registration is there with being incorporated which is the same as USA LLC where it is a separate entity than the owner.
It is correct that shares could be issued to raise money as well if bank loans are not looking possible.
They do not have the resources for marketing or possibly distribution to retail yet so crowd funding may be the only means for "the little guy" to get a project out.

I would say unless I "know" the company is good (or I am willing to throw away money), crowd funding is getting put in the same category as advanced orders which is the "almost never do it" realm of things.

Well it begin again the topic of Crowd funding. I have four outstanding projects at this time. The first one which is RRT is big failure in my eyes and I don't think PB will do wave 2 ever no matter what year you put in. The other three will get done by the end of this year. CAV2 ,BT PC game and weather device. Whats funning about two weeks ago the Detroit News business section on five ways how to save money . Number five was not to crowd fund because there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY. I read that and I laugh. The one is to check the creator out and check the track record on who doing the KS. I think I did pretty well so far. RRT is my first and worst KS to date.

Aside, GW should definitely crowdfund Sisters of Battle, simply to settle the question of just how popular Sisters really are. I would love to see how much money Games Workshop could raise - it's probably far, far less than what the handful of remaining Sisters players imagine. Heck, just going by the "success" of Raging Heroes 2, we know it's a tiny, tiny niche. Thing is, I'm not sure that crowdfunding a Sisters Codex and plastics would even cover GW's upfront development costs, so not "tacky" at all. If it doesn't raise enough, would GW simply Squat Sisters permanently? OTOH, if it actually succeeds (highly doubtful), it's perfect for GW, as it basically makes Sisters of Battle a GW Exclusive Preorder with zero profit split to retail distribution. Cha-ching!

KD:M 1.5 raised $12M upfront, and will likely pull in a few $M in the pledge manager. Let's call it $15M total revenue before fees. That's HUGE for anybody in the miniatures gaming business who isn't Games Workshop or Hasbro. Consider that Privateer Press is only a $5-6M company, and that's ALL Warmahordes combined. Palladium?? Ha! Of course, KD:M actually delivered a really good product, and fully refunded what they couldn't...

Considering that CMON is actually a publishing house that does marketing for their studios, their choice of serial Kickstarter is a good one. For all intents and purposes, they are a media publishing company, where they advance to studios to develop product, then organize the product launch and marketing campaign to get preorder money.

But don't think that people are prepaying for development. The successful KS expect 80-90% done prior to KS launch, not launching an idea and a prayer. KS is really to nail down numbers and production volumes.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
But don't think that people are prepaying for development. The successful KS expect 80-90% done prior to KS launch, not launching an idea and a prayer. KS is really to nail down numbers and production volumes.

With smarter creators I would tend to agree with you.
With most I have seen so-far: everything remains as "electrons" until there is money to buy the tooling, production time and the almighty shipping.
The volume of backer funds decides the economy of scale to shoot for so the production volumes really determines the tooling assets to get.

Sisters was my favorite force in 40K.
Ornate, light Space Marines backed by religious fanatics. What a great army!

^i will stick with my tau thanks

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Aside, GW should definitely crowdfund Sisters of Battle, simply to settle the question of just how popular Sisters really are. I would love to see how much money Games Workshop could raise - it's probably far, far less than what the handful of remaining Sisters players imagine. Heck, just going by the "success" of Raging Heroes 2, we know it's a tiny, tiny niche. Thing is, I'm not sure that crowdfunding a Sisters Codex and plastics would even cover GW's upfront development costs, so not "tacky" at all. If it doesn't raise enough, would GW simply Squat Sisters permanently? OTOH, if it actually succeeds (highly doubtful), it's perfect for GW, as it basically makes Sisters of Battle a GW Exclusive Preorder with zero profit split to retail distribution. Cha-ching!
.

That's not a very good comparison. Raging Heroes 1 was such a clusterfeth that it was only natural for the second to do poorly. Shieldwolf was able to fund plastic shieldmaidens, and they are a tiny nobody of a company with only one plastic kit in their portfolio. If GW launched a Sisters kickstarter, they'd probably make more from backers looking to base their Grey Knights than Shieldwolf made from actual enthusiasts. I know I'd put money towards Sisters when I wouldn't throw a used snotrag at Ragin' Shiroz.

That's why I'd want it to be crowdfunded with transparency in revenue. We'd see to what people are willing to pay for actual GW official product with GW standard global fulfillment (very good, BTW!) vs Raging Heroes and other knockoff product.

Kickstarter was never "intended" for any purpose or scale of business.

As much as people complain about large companies using it - it would be stupid not to. A successful company doesn't "owe" anybody bad business decisions. A company considering a new product can do one of two things:

1) Invest X amount of money (often taking out a loan, etc.) in a product with the hope that the consumer base is interested in it.
2) Gather X amount of money before creating said product - getting incredibly valuable consumer feedback at the same time while being able to gauge consumer interest.

Why should you punish a large company for doing what is 100% the smarter option to continue to run as a business? Why is it "wrong" for a large company to gather money before investing on nothing more than market research and hope? I don't understand the logic here. You don't think automotive manufacturers would prefer to do a Kickstarter style program instead of investing billions of dollars in factories/machines/etc. only to produce a car which no one buys? Sure there are companies which are big enough to weather the penalty of producing a product no one purchases (we've seen plenty of flops in the miniature gaming market).

I think we've all seen Kickstarters which show up and hit 4% of their goal (even if it's a $1000 goal). That's invaluable research for the person or company putting the product out there (and shockingly some don't get it and try 2-3-4 times to launch the same product no one wants to buy - remember the sh_tty little mad-max car game that was attempted a dozen times by the guy with crappy sculpts?). I bet the failed Kickstarter owners are thanking their lucky stars that they had the chance to see that it was going to be a poorly received product. I see no reason why that should be restricted to small time companies/fledgling start-ups.

It's smart business, full stop. You take the minimal risk possible when launching a new product. Ethics don't play into it.

We should start filling out a pool for when and how this will end. It must be moving towards some kind of final update, right? PB can't drag this out for another 4-5 years. Actually, they probably could.

 Elbows wrote:
Kickstarter was never "intended" for any purpose or scale of business.

I think we've all seen Kickstarters which show up and hit 4% of their goal (even if it's a $1000 goal). That's invaluable research for the person or company putting the product out there (and shockingly some don't get it and try 2-3-4 times to launch the same product no one wants to buy - remember the sh_tty little mad-max car game that was attempted a dozen times by the guy with crappy sculpts?). I bet the failed Kickstarter owners are thanking their lucky stars that they had the chance to see that it was going to be a poorly received product. I see no reason why that should be restricted to small time companies/fledgling start-ups.

It's smart business, full stop. You take the minimal risk possible when launching a new product. Ethics don't play into it.

And vice versa, how much money gets left on the table with underestimated demand. If you miss a holiday season, that can be a big money hit. Consider Hatchimals from 3-4 months ago. Are those still a big deal now that the holiday is done? Not so much. eBay now has them selling at MSRP

 Ctaylor wrote:
We should start filling out a pool for when and how this will end. It must be moving towards some kind of final update, right? PB can't drag this out for another 4-5 years. Actually, they probably could.

This is the rather interesting legal wrinkle: how long can they go?
Is a quarterly, annual "update" of "we are working on it!!" all they are obliged to do?
Unless someone takes a strong run at calling them on this I really CAN see it go on forever until it looks like it can quietly be dropped.


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 Elbows wrote:
That's invaluable research for the person or company putting the product out there (and shockingly some don't get it and try 2-3-4 times to launch the same product no one wants to buy - remember the sh_tty little mad-max car game that was attempted a dozen times by the guy with crappy sculpts?).

I think that was "Road Kill".
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/967512676/car-combat-miniatures-and-road-kill-game-system

It did OK.
I got to play it at "HotLead" and talk to Miles Holmes and the mechanics were pretty fun.
I think he still has it so you can print out everything you need to play the game itself.
Since I used to play "Car Wars" way back when, this seems positively streamlined in comparison.

It's smart business, full stop. You take the minimal risk possible when launching a new product. Ethics don't play into it.

Like I said earlier, the only drawback is if it actually funds they have to give away 14% to Kickstarter.
If I knew I had a good product, I would not want to share that big a chunk for doing nothing other than host a web site for me.

Hey! my Kickstarter ban I think ended today!
Why do I feel like if I say anything other than sunshine and rainbows it will happen again?

Short of another licensing bailout or Crisis of Beggary, how long can they continue to make the payroll?

I remember seeing the Road Kill KS, and backing away very slowly each time!

But if we look at bad KS, how about this:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/834646725/strategy
Somehow, I doubt it funds.

Talizvar brings up a good point I forgot to include which is that the company/producer is paying a fee to Kickstarter for that success.

I think it's clever that certain companies like Northwind Miniatures do their own in-house Kickstarter. However you need a trusted business to do this and it's much more of a genuine pre-order than actual Kickstarter.

I think the only bad thing that is a result of the big push for Kickstarters by large companies is the growing expectation of freebies, unlocks, etc. There are a lot of small time manufacturers/producers who can't really do what Reaper Minis does and give you 250% of the product you paid for, etc. There is a large expectation of free stuff and unlocks, but I think most consumers are savvy enough to know whether the KS is a glorified pre-order (i.e. it's being done by Mantic or someone big) or a genuine KS-necessary project by a single sculptor or small game studio.

I considered a KS for my game and decided to not do it. The work/cost/etc. wasn't going to benefit me much and I didn't have the production capacity to add a ton of freebies in, etc.

I would like to see a KS "reputation" meter applied to companies, but they'd simply start each project under an alternate name or email so it wouldn't do anything for the end consumer. Palladium Books would have a 3% rating where CMON would have a 97% or something.

 Elbows wrote:
I think it's clever that certain companies like Northwind Miniatures do their own in-house Kickstarter. However you need a trusted business to do this and it's much more of a genuine pre-order than actual Kickstarter.

I think the only bad thing that is a result of the big push for Kickstarters by large companies is the growing expectation of freebies, unlocks, etc.

I think most consumers are savvy enough to know whether the KS is a glorified pre-order

I considered a KS for my game and decided to not do it. The work/cost/etc. wasn't going to benefit me much and I didn't have the production capacity to add a ton of freebies in, etc.

I would like to see a KS "reputation" meter applied to companies, but they'd simply start each project under an alternate name or email so it wouldn't do anything for the end consumer. Palladium Books would have a 3% rating where CMON would have a 97% or something.

Palladium internally crowdfund Rifts Northern Gun! And Lemuria!

Kevin wrote:The Rifts Northern Gun™ ONE Megaverse Insider crowdfunding is another resounding success. As of my writing of this Murmur, 349 gamers have "officially" participated in the Northern Gun™ ONE crowdfunding, totaling $26,915 in purchases. Wow. Thank you.

It goes on, of course... http://palladiumbooks.com/forums/viewtopic.php?uid=27521&f=49&t=131550&start=0 As for how it went, well, if not for the influx of RRT revenues, they wouldn't have delivered.

I wouldn't say that freebies are necessarily expected if that's not the business model. CMoN has a good idea of their minimum viable product, and a good history of funding, so they can have a pretty accurate cost / volume floor to work from. They also have an excellent handle on marginal cost and so forth, so they really can unlock those things when they go from $100k to $1M. If, however, you're looking at something more like MEdge, then that's where you are.

Legally, most AGs are going to be pretty clear that yes, a KS *is* a preorder under every applicable consumer law.

If your game works and you launch it without freebies, that's OK. Really. You aren't CMoN.

Palladium just tried that, "selling" the Rifts BG license to one of their employees... Fat lot of good it did.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Palladium internally crowdfund Rifts Northern Gun! And Lemuria!

Kevin wrote:The Rifts Northern Gun™ ONE Megaverse Insider crowdfunding is another resounding success. As of my writing of this Murmur, 349 gamers have "officially" participated in the Northern Gun™ ONE crowdfunding, totaling $26,915 in purchases. Wow. Thank you.

It goes on, of course... http://palladiumbooks.com/forums/viewtopic.php?uid=27521&f=49&t=131550&start=0 As for how it went, well, if not for the influx of RRT revenues, they wouldn't have delivered.

I wouldn't say that freebies are necessarily expected if that's not the business model. CMoN has a good idea of their minimum viable product, and a good history of funding, so they can have a pretty accurate cost / volume floor to work from. They also have an excellent handle on marginal cost and so forth, so they really can unlock those things when they go from $100k to $1M. If, however, you're looking at something more like MEdge, then that's where you are.

Legally, most AGs are going to be pretty clear that yes, a KS *is* a preorder under every applicable consumer law. *SNIP*

Legally, yes. In practice, we just haven't seen that. There's been what, two instances of an AG stepping in? When I ran into issues with another project, even having the creator's name and address didn't help (they were over a year without any communications, and refused to respond to contact). The state police directed me to the federal police, the federal police directed me to the state AG, and the state AG all but said "Meh, not worth it, you're better trying civil action". Even though I explicitly pointed out civil action from AU for less than $300US was REALLY not going to happen.

As to the quote, that seems pathetic that they possibly weren't able to fund, given the numbers he lists, that's $77.12 per backer, for a book that retails for $25MSRP. Sure, there might have been some multiple purchases in there, but given the actual production cost per book is much lower, that they bollocksed that campaign so badly, makes the assertion that they don't have any money, let alone not enough money to do it, for Wave 2, to be more than speculation.

Regarding Ctaylor's pool, my money is on PB dragging this out long enough that Kevin retires (if he's able), and everything collapses into a sinkhole. Simply put, there's not enough money in the future of the game to warrant spending the capital needed to produce and deliver Wave 2. Even if they HAD the money, it's simply better (for them) to just leave it than it is to spend more. The reality is, there's little real pressure, either legally or publicly (same people hating on, or supporting PB, with the majority of the gaming community ignoring) for PB to actually do anything. Even if the gRifts (stolen from Fleshharrower on RRTC) Boardgame is successful, there's simply not enough meat on the bone that is RRT for PB to get a real return on investment. At this point, any attempt by PB to "reboot" the game, is just futile act of throwing money away. Which sucks for backers.

The law is very clear. If some AG wanted to make a name for himself, he could step forward and utterly crush PB. Enforcement is the issue. And it costs money to enforce, as we all know.

As for NG1, it's not pathetic to Kevin - it's "another resounding success".

Pool-wise, I'm putting RRT Wave 2 sometime after Kevin is six feet under. That is, I think our only hope of seeing any Wave 2 is if Kevin gets hit by a bus and some responsible party picks up the reins, because no way Kevin does anything.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I remember seeing the Road Kill KS, and backing away very slowly each time!

But if we look at bad KS, how about this:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/834646725/strategy
Somehow, I doubt it funds.

That, sir, is an amazing find.

That kickstarter is pure 100% cringe