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GabrielV wrote:
But for their business of printing RPG books and decks of playing cards, I don't think there's any true impediment.

I guess that depends on how fast the Polygon posting of "absolute disaster" gets bumped off the first page of a google search.
I do admit, unless you are looking for it, nothing stands out for the first few pages.
Not sure they are so unimportant much is noted or they are just that good at ensuring overly bad press is dealt with.

GabrielV wrote:

 Forar wrote:
At the very least, crowdfunding seems to be dead for them directly, and semi-indirectly.

I don't think so. I think they could still easily crowdfund a print run of a new book. I also think they could probably successfully fund "limited editions" of some books. I just don't think there's enough widespread knowledge of exactly how bad this was to truly quash their ability to get crowdfunding money.

They're probably dead in the water for any larger projects. They're definitely not going to be able to get a toehold in miniatures again. But for their business of printing RPG books and decks of playing cards, I don't think there's any true impediment.

While it's possible, I don't think it will happen, and probably not for the obvious reasons.

One thing that Palladium has been cagey about, but has let slip some details on, are their sales numbers. They mention books being at the printers, and arriving, but avoid mentioning how many books to the print run, or what sales are. Now, that's absolutely their business, but it's not unprecedented for companies to mention it either.

A Kickstarter funded book would have numbers attached to it. These wouldn't be concrete (due to some people being turned off by the platform, etc), but it'd give a better insight into how strong/weak PB book sales are. Rather than snippets about how awesome selling 120 copies of a new release (and the first new book in ~6 months) at the biggest convention in the world, or being excited about the couple dozen card packs they sold. And that'd lead to questions about how PB have remained solvent, and leads back to harder questions.

For example, if Kevin's producing less than a thousand copies of a book that MSRP's for $25, and you assume art assets and printing costs account for $5 per, that's $20K of income, assuming all direct sales. PB put out two books a year. And has a half dozen or so permanent employees. And an office/warehouse space. Those numbers wouldn't add up. Which leads to questions.

Additionally it'd be embarrassing as hell if they did fail to get the numbers. Or if the book was significantly delayed.

So it's possible that PB COULD crowdsource a new book. But there's so many reasons it'd be clinically stupid to do so that.... OK, I can see PB crowdsourcing a new book.

GabrielV wrote:
It looks like the Robotech RPG PDFs have been removed from DriveThruRPG/RPGNow.

For anyone who purchased them, are they still on your download history, or scrubbed from there as well?

Dunno about the RPG books, but the RTT pdfs are still in my library after being removed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morgan Vening wrote:
So it's possible that PB COULD crowdsource a new book. But there's so many reasons it'd be clinically stupid to do so that.... OK, I can see PB crowdsourcing a new book.

Hahahahaha.

Sadly, I agree. Kevin will try for that sweet, sweet crowdsourced money again at some point.

 Ctaylor wrote:

GabrielV wrote:
It looks like the Robotech RPG PDFs have been removed from DriveThruRPG/RPGNow.
For anyone who purchased them, are they still on your download history, or scrubbed from there as well?

Dunno about the RPG books, but the RTT pdfs are still in my library after being removed..

Makes sense, the product was purchased prior to license expiry so it represents my purchased product.
No harm no foul I guess.
Good to know in case I lose my copies off my drive or Jamz's Wiki is unavailable for some reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yep, after looking at Kickstarter as a crowdsourcing venue, I think it will be dead to me for anything a middling company tries to flog. If it is some garage thing, sure win-some / lose-some. I am tired of paying for someone's R&D and market research all in one go.

I think I got a bit out of line peeing on the Battletech release for HBS. It was pointed out Gog was offering the game for less and bundled an HBS game as well.

It got me thinking of all the various reasons one should not pre-order and... well... I guess I am done with it.

Caveat emptor applies to when you have the product in hand and are considering the purchase. I think I need to get back to something like that.

GabrielV wrote:

 Forar wrote:
At the very least, crowdfunding seems to be dead for them directly, and semi-indirectly.

I don't think so. I think they could still easily crowdfund a print run of a new book. I also think they could probably successfully fund "limited editions" of some books. I just don't think there's enough widespread knowledge of exactly how bad this was to truly quash their ability to get crowdfunding money.

They're probably dead in the water for any larger projects. They're definitely not going to be able to get a toehold in miniatures again. But for their business of printing RPG books and decks of playing cards, I don't think there's any true impediment.

Oh, they might internally 'crowdfund' another project, and if the legal battle looks ugly enough I could see another 'Crisis of Financial Insolvency' as they begged for people to buy overpriced pencils and art bits, but I mean projects on Kickstarter or Indiegogo or other large scale platforms.

Considering how delayed their other internally run campaigns, I'd expect some wariness then too, but for the dedicated fans reality and history are no obstacle.

So yeah, a couple of grand for a book print or something? Yes.

But the big names, the places where they *might* be able to attract 6 or 7+ figures? I really don't think so.

Crowdfunding (gRIFTS) books is easy, because they're selling things to FanFriends who are just happy to give Palladium Crooks money - from them, delivery is optional.

Crowdfunding anything else that doesn't cater directly to PB's FanFriends will be impossible.

A couple of comments around the tubes of people claiming that PB are in dire finacial starits mean we will probably see a plea for cash.
Not sure they have the fan base this time around.

Ultimately, I decided not to take the deal. I don’t expect to recoup anything, but if I can be a part of holding them accountable legally then that is good.
I see what others are doing with printed models and it is exciting and I think something can still be done to salvage this for me. But then I look at my diminished hobby time and the high cost of prints, even the nicest of which seem rough for their costs... I can’t convince myself to invest further.

Maybe one day, or maybe some other company will surprise us with a new line that will reinvigorate my enthusiasm to bring this to my painting table again.

It has been my largest disappointment in gaming, mostly because Kevin took a huge dump on something I love to make a quick buck off of us.

I'm in the same boat. I don't expect much, if anything back. I do expect PB to be held to account legally. There's a contract in play and it should be enforced.

winterdyne wrote:
I'm in the same boat. I don't expect much, if anything back. I do expect PB to be held to account legally. There's a contract in play and it should be enforced.

Additionally, a precedent set.

It's more than just this campaign. If PB aren't held to account, why should any Creator?

It's why I'm a tiny bit surprised that Kickstarter themselves have sat on their asses as much as they have. Obviously, they don't want to deal with the legalistics themselves, and they DEFINITELY don't want to be held to account personally, but their attitude of "Do whatever, we don't care" with regards delinquent Creators has had me cut my Kickstarter backings significantly since the RRT thing went off the rails (and was about the same time Creative Gamescapes went into "silence" mode).

If the lawsuit does happen and fails, I'll probably drop out of Kickstarter for anything but sequels to previously successful campaigns (big fan of the Tiny Epics), as it's clear that there are zero protections available to backers, and I can see an escalation in campaigns with no intent to deliver. After all, it's free money.

Morgan Vening wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
I'm in the same boat. I don't expect much, if anything back. I do expect PB to be held to account legally. There's a contract in play and it should be enforced.

Additionally, a precedent set.

It's more than just this campaign. If PB aren't held to account, why should any Creator?

It's why I'm a tiny bit surprised that Kickstarter themselves have sat on their asses as much as they have. Obviously, they don't want to deal with the legalistics themselves, and they DEFINITELY don't want to be held to account personally, but their attitude of "Do whatever, we don't care" with regards delinquent Creators has had me cut my Kickstarter backings significantly since the RRT thing went off the rails (and was about the same time Creative Gamescapes went into "silence" mode).

If the lawsuit does happen and fails, I'll probably drop out of Kickstarter for anything but sequels to previously successful campaigns (big fan of the Tiny Epics), as it's clear that there are zero protections available to backers, and I can see an escalation in campaigns with no intent to deliver. After all, it's free money.

I ' am same boat as rest you guys , boy this boat really loading here. I have 4 KS coming this month and the next so this one the only that fail which not really not bad other this one took most money then the others. I just wish we can put the fear of God into Kev on this that all.

Morgan Vening wrote:
If the lawsuit does happen and fails, I'll probably drop out of Kickstarter for anything but sequels to previously successful campaigns (big fan of the Tiny Epics), as it's clear that there are zero protections available to backers, and I can see an escalation in campaigns with no intent to deliver. After all, it's free money.

That is why I think after Battletech is done I can shutdown and not look at Kickstarter again.
Pre-order of any kind has rarely worked out for me and has so many arguments against it.
It seems to prove time and time again that no-one has any incentive to improve and make something great if they already have your money.

It is an irritant as well when a Kickstarter is funded, then the creator sets up a pre-order for retail: so nice to double up on getting money up front.

So... the latest PBWU is up. EDIT: But again, they're still not posting them to the FB page. Last official post was three weeks ago.

Kevin tells customers there's no more RRT for sale. So at least that part is done. Of course, he can't help trying to deflect that it wasn't the game that was a failure, it was the "other factors" beyond his control. His creations can't fail. They can only BE failed.

"It has been painfully ironic, but since the liquidation sales, we have had a growing number of gamers contact us to tell us they are surprised by how much fun the RRT game is and how nice the miniatures are. Yes, we couldn’t agree more. That comment is usually followed by, “how can I get more?” "

Also, something that was actually brought up a couple weeks ago (thanks for the incessant copypasta, Kevin, I wouldn't have noticed otherwise), that since March 15th, after PB claimed "poor" regarding the Kickstarter, they've reprinted at least three books.

Because for these jackasses, it's business as usual. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised at all if some early liquidations of stock backers appear to have paid for was used to fund the reprinting of these books. I dunno. Seems convenient timing, at a time when they're pleading no money, is all.

Jackasses.

Morgan Vening wrote:
It's why I'm a tiny bit surprised that Kickstarter themselves have sat on their asses as much as they have

I'm not. They had no control over the delivery. They did matchmaking.

All they can do is ban PB from ever using their platform again.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
All they can do is ban PB from ever using their platform again.

Actually the better question would be will Kickstarter actually do so? No. There is no reason, in their opinion, as long as they whatever percentage of fee the project generates.

Kickstarter is obviously unconcerned about any perceived damage to their brand that this, and a few other shoddy projects, have created. So why would they consider banning anyone from their platform.

Unless Kickstarter, or any other crowd-sourcing platform, is willing to go after the abusers with something other than a stern warning and an apology for being useless to a backer, they will not act.

Hard to say - if several people report the project to KS as potentially fraudulent, based on previous experience, and KS still goes forward despite the warnings of financial malfeasance, they could possibly be held jointly liable.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
It's why I'm a tiny bit surprised that Kickstarter themselves have sat on their asses as much as they have

I'm not. They had no control over the delivery. They did matchmaking.

All they can do is ban PB from ever using their platform again.

They couldn't do much, but they COULD have done more. It was one of my frequent refrains, that Kickstarter require PB give a revised date, provide actual proof to backers that things really were "being worked on", or be declared a failure according to Kickstarter's terms and conditions, and that refunds should be issued to any backer that requested one. Not enforced it (not their responsibility), but it would have opened up PB to a strong-position lawsuit much earlier, when more people gave a crap about the campaign. The apathy they generated over the last two years has been pretty palpable.

It's a small thing, but if it'd been done about mid-late 2016 (two years after Wave 1), when it was shown (or rather wasn't), that PB had no intention of displaying their "work", then we'd be 18 months into this post RRT phase already.

I never expected Kickstarter to take on PB. But when PB are making a mockery of Kickstarter's terms of service (We're totally working on it! Promise! <insert no detail&gt, I had HOPED Kickstarter would have realized that being tied to this lead balloon was something they wanted to avoid.

And regarding a ban, unless things have changed, Kickstarter aren't going to care if Carmen (with the rest of PB as backup dancers) redoes gRifts. Not sure I'd put much likelihood in it, due to the Facebook page having no new content in almost six months. Though if it does, I expect a similar amount of vitriol if it does launch.

Having been burned a few times now (one with unacceptable delays, and this clusterfeth, along with a few other small messes), I'm definitely trimming back what I'm willing to gamble. Like Morgan, followup campaigns to successful projects work, and projects that are small in scope and/or along the lines of a $1-5 'tip' for an idea I like but don't want to commit to are all fine by me.

Though I do keep eyeing that new Fireball Island. As I've mentioned a few times now, it's basically weaponized nostalgia, and I'm keeping tabs on it.

I'm soured on the idea of this platform. While there have been some projects I find interesting, this particular gak-fest has deterred me from committing to anything anymore. I went in on this because of Ninja Division's reputation blunting Siembiedas' incompetence. I really should have listened to my gut and walked away but its water through the damn at this point.

I will, however, not support any future endeavor Palladium Books contemplates going through Kickstarter again regardless of who they may or may not be paired with.

 Forar wrote:
Though I do keep eyeing that new Fireball Island. As I've mentioned a few times now, it's basically weaponized nostalgia, and I'm keeping tabs on it.

Hopefully they do a better job than HQ25... or Robotech.

A buddy nearly dove in deep for HQ25 for me for my birthday that year. Getting the boot from KS and moving to another platform kept him away, and glancing at the thread in another subforum on here, it's lucky that was the case in hindsight.

But this one seems to be trucking along just fine, and the team making it has been talking openly about doing it for ages.

Of course, there are no guarantees in life, and I'm only in for a buck currently, but they're traveling a bunch of states and a couple of stops here in Canada to show off the prototype they've built, so this isn't just some group with a twinkle in their eyes.

But I guess only time will tell. Even well managed projects can find themselves underwater. Though the marginal gains through the stretch goals is actually something I'm liking, and they responded quickly about their delivery target and that unlocks shouldn't influence that.

Of course, if it's 2 years late and a titanic mess, I suppose I'll have to learn my lesson eventually.

I've been following Fireball Island , and I think they've got a pretty good idea of what they want to make, and it looks like they should have the money to do it, both overall, and per game. Taking it to delivery is the hard part, especially for a first creator.

I wish them luck, and think it's too bad this isn't being produced by Hasbro.

I had sold all my wave 1 stuff, con promos, bag, etc years ago as I was upset about this fiasco. I finally caved and used the trade in program, ebay, and their sale to get a decent amount of product. I'm only missing the q-rau convention promo.

I'm finally happy. The game was decent and i finally I got something for my money/wave 2 (even though it's not what I expected or strongly desired). The game is dead, they will never get another dime from me, and I can still continue to play and add to that experience with the community created wave 2 minis (like what the community did for the marvel you minis game). I can finally breathe freely.

The dust tactics and robotech kickstarters were horrible but now over... as for hq25, I'm never expecting anything for my money. That's a total lost cause.

 455_PWR wrote:
like what the community did for the marvel you minis game

I think I heard about this, but remind me: are people keeping the Knight Models' Marvel game alive? Is there a website or forum where people are actually active with this? The thread I knew about on Dakka doesn't see much activity (plus it's now a Batman/DC game thread I guess).

I kind of wish I'd cashed in for some Glaugs. Oh well.

Does anyone have a pile of leftover bits they'd be willing to sell for not much more than shipping? The veritechs are a pain to assemble, but the leftover bits are so useful for modding other minis.

Bob, I have a tiny amount of RRT bitz that I will happily give you for FREE next time we meet up

The best way to support Palladium books any more is to buy the Savage Worlds version of Rifts. Show them how much more competent other people are with their IP than they are.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The best way to support Palladium books any more is to buy the Savage Worlds version of Rifts. Show them how much more competent other people are with their IP than they are.

Well, provided anyone wants to do that, of course.

Has anyone read the "Terms of Service" of Kickstarter?? Just wondering if it was given how long after the project ended they have to refund money.
If there is no time line given.. Kevin can go back to his "we are working on it" and do that for another five years if not.

Just curious what will happen now.. I figure less than 20% (< 1000 people) took the trade out offer..

I don't own my wave one stuff anymore and don't want more of it... maybe next they will offer anything from their store.. Or maybe give you credit towards
the Rifts tabletop game that hasn't had an update since late last year.

Going by Kevin's past with how non-votes were considered approval, I think he considers all obligations filled once they're done with the bait-and-switch -in-kind.

> Has anyone read the "Terms of Service" of Kickstarter??

I've heard rumors. Specifically, the ToS is there to protect KS from any action by you (not that you can't with a lawyer), and means nada without enforcement (again, with a lawyer).