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Yoyoyo wrote:
Guard have CC enablers, not CC units.

They're supposed to help your boys hold, or take on the heavy lifting themselves (Lord Commissars are WS5) when the going gets too tough.

Ogryns and Rough Riders are auxiliaries. Giving line Guardmen specal snowflake rules, though, goes against the nature of what IG should be.

I think I covered that. But IG don't get to skip the CC phase. They have to do something.

A Lord Commissar isn't doing anything significant against hordes of CC models that delete IG units wholesale.

Guard shoot, and that's what my proposal does. Everybody gets special rules. Guard snap shooting at BS2 (and in CC) isn't unreasonable, given that they have no assault units.

The alternative is allowing all Guard units to shoot into CC. With full effect Flamers and Blasts.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


The alternative is allowing all Guard units to shoot into CC. With full effect Flamers and Blasts.

It makes sense they should be allowed to. In the eyes of the IG, once their men are in melee with something dangerous they are dead anyway.

Obviously, there is a reason other factions don't do this. In the swirling melee, it's very easy to hit your own. So, letting them shoot into melee but having misses hit your own guys instead would be fair. Blasts and templates could roll a D6, and on a 4+ or 5+ the opponent gets to place the template or blast instead (the target must still be locked in the same combat).

Commissars might be happy to BBQ their own men but I really don't see the troops doing it.

Considering how cheap Guardsmen are, I think it's fine for them to get killed off relatively easily in CC. But IG players need to stop getting penalized for this, if it's how the army is meant to be played.

The first major issue is nobody sensible will slow down the enemy with a 50pt infantry squad, if you're also going to lose the enablers which make them effective. We need some kind of mechanic to bounce ICs out of a losing combat and stay in the fight. A LC should be able to fight through 3-4 different losing combats and come out alive (excepting challenges).

Next, reworking Combined Squads and Kill Points is important. The platoon structure exists to enable command and control. Why is there no flexibility to disengage if we blob up and a single squad gets stuck in combat? Why do we lose so many benefits from buffs like Orders, just by manuevering tactically as separate units? We are prepared to take infantry casualties -- why should losing a single squad out of a platoon penalize a guard player in KPs? These ae not good mechanics IMO.

Conscripts fit the idea of a blob. There's no squad leadership so they need move around en masse. Trained soldiers do NOT fight that way.

The idea of some kind of Broken Arrow rule is great. This one has potential. Maybe it even gives our losing squads a chance to avoid getting swept -- which is a great example of the inter-arms cooperation that should define the IG.

We need some way to avoid CC entirely if we are not going to get some decent CC units, after all as has been pointed out the CC themed and based armies can also shoot really well, in some cases out gunning the Imperial Guard. Something like a rule which allows us to overwatch then fall back D6" or 2D6". If the enemy can not reach the section in its new position then the charge fails.
This would force enemy units to have to get very close to assault, effectively halving how close they have to get to get an effective charge off and allowing our sections to deal with enemy CC troops effectively.

With regard to shooting into combat, this really needs to be a core mechanic. It was dubious enough even when you would likely be hitting your own models, but now we have gargantuan creatures in the game. I think this sums it up best:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"

Had a thought. In addition to improving orders, they should have this:

-Orders may be given to any unit within 6" and LoS of the officer.
-Vox casters are free
-If the officer's unit has a vox, he may order another unit with a vox within 12", regardless of LoS.
-That unit may pass the order to another unit with a vox within 12", regardless of LoS at no penalty. Repeat ad infinitum until the desired unit has the order.

 Selym wrote:
Had a thought. In addition to improving orders, they should have this:

-Orders may be given to any unit within 6" and LoS of the officer.
-Vox casters are free
-If the officer's unit has a vox, he may order another unit with a vox within 12", regardless of LoS.
-That unit may pass the order to another unit with a vox within 12", regardless of LoS at no penalty. Repeat ad infinitum until the desired unit has the order.

I don't think the issue with orders is that they're too unreliable or there are too few that we are able to issue in a given turn. The problem is that the units that would most benefit from orders are very uncompetitive and low leadership (special weapons teams, heavy weapons teams, ratlings) or unlikely to be within range of a command squad (scions). The fact that veterans and blobs are really the only viable infantry options limits the effectiveness of orders. If we could field reasonably priced HWS then orders would be much more potent, if SWS could take transports then we could deploy them forward and issue orders from command chimeras. If ratlings could take a vox then they'd be pretty darn good (4+ re-roll against MCs, ignores cover against infantry)

The vox relay thing is intended to improve the range of orders without making it broken. Allowing re-rolls for orders when you still have a Character in the unit should be a thing. That'd make them much more likely to happen.

 Selym wrote:
The vox relay thing is intended to improve the range of orders without making it broken. Allowing re-rolls for orders when you still have a Character in the unit should be a thing. That'd make them much more likely to happen.

I like the whole relay thing but in all honesty right now Orders are so damn weak (especially as other armies get the exact same effect just for having certain characters/units or enough Markerlights (Tau)) that Vox units making them unlimited range would be of no real consequence to the balance of things.

I really like the idea of retreating and then shooting. I would make the unit pass the initiative or leadership test. If failed, they would overwatch as normal. If passed, they retreat for 3+D6 and then shoot at normal BS, or default BS-1.

 Selym wrote:
Had a thought. In addition to improving orders, they should have this:

-Orders may be given to any unit within 6" and LoS of the officer.
-Vox casters are free
-If the officer's unit has a vox, he may order another unit with a vox within 12", regardless of LoS.
-That unit may pass the order to another unit with a vox within 12", regardless of LoS at no penalty. Repeat ad infinitum until the desired unit has the order.

Here's a better thought.

No.

Orders don't need a range limitation, and Voxes need to be worthwhile. Even at "free" your idea is exceedingly lackluster.

It's something tactical and that can be countered. It's not meant for the current run of orders, which are underpowered. Which is why I said "In addition to improving orders". It makes logical sense to use Voxes like that.

Maybe have orders auto-pass if a Vox is in both units.

Orders happen, automatically. The requirement of a Leadership test is moronic.

Orders can be issued to any unit on the table with a Vox-Caster.
A Platoon counts as a single unit, for the purposes of Orders.

Orders themselves don't "need to be countered" nor should they be able to be countered, if you don't want someone issuing Orders then you kill the models with Voice of Command. That's the "counter".

I don't think IG troops should be getting special movement or shooting rules, independent of bonuses which derive from their leadership or organization. Further thoughts:

- Full BS overwatch should come from Foreboding. There's already a way to get this!
- Platoons should not need to blob up for bonuses (as Kanluwen said)
- Platoons need some version of Supporting Fire to compensate if no longer blobbed up
- Platoons should only give KPs when completely destroyed
- Independent Characters need a way to bounce into fresh squads
- Artillery can fire on CC under certain conditions to try and cover the squad's escape.

So, scenario time!

A single SM Assault Squad intends to charge the centre of a dismounted IG platoon. Here's how it plays out:

- First, the IG platoon is dispersed. Each Infantry Squad needs to keep 12" coherency at all times;
- The Assault Squad fires their pistols and charge;
- All Squads in the platoon within 24" fire Overwatch to support the Infantry Squad under attack;
- The Assault Squad resolves their attacks against the Infantry Squad (and most likely, destroy it);
- As the entire platoon is not destroyed, a KP is NOT awarded at this time;
- The next turn, the Infantry Platoon reconsolidates to regain 12" coherency between squads;
- The platoon command issues FRF/SRF;
- The remaining squads fire upon the Assault Squad with the bonus from Orders.

This doesn't seem like a losing scenario to me. It also seems more thematic than just handing out special rules to Guardmen. Everything here is based on the Platoon structure. The power isn't with your individual Guardsmen, and Conscript Blobs don't get these bonuses. Seems fluffy right?

I didn't get into the Broken Arrow or ideas to salvage your IC's, but reworking platoons doesn't seem too abusive. Thoughts?

Yoyoyo wrote:

A single SM Assault Squad intends to charge the centre of a dismounted IG platoon. Here's how it plays out:

- First, the IG platoon is dispersed. Each Infantry Squad needs to keep 12" coherency at all times;
- The Assault Squad fires their pistols and charge;
- All Squads in the platoon within 24" fire Overwatch to support the Infantry Squad under attack;
- The Assault Squad resolves their attacks against the Infantry Squad (and most likely, destroy it);
- As the entire platoon is not destroyed, a KP is NOT awarded at this time;
- The next turn, the Infantry Platoon reconsolidates to regain 12" coherency between squads;
- The platoon command issues FRF/SRF;
- The remaining squads fire upon the Assault Squad with the bonus from Orders.

This doesn't seem like a losing scenario to me. It also seems more thematic than just handing out special rules to Guardsmen. Everything here is based on the Platoon structure. The power isn't with your individual Guardsmen, and Conscript Blobs don't get these bonuses. Seems fluffy right?

I didn't get into the Broken Arrow or ideas to salvage your IC's, but reworking platoons doesn't seem too abusive. Thoughts?

If what your saying is that all Infantry units act like a single big unit with a 12" spread, and the ability to select different targets per squad, then yes please

Firing into CC should be a special rule for conscripts (who should be renamed "penal legion"). It shouldn't be a universal IG rule.

It should be a universal rule when targeting gargantuan creatures, perhaps with you rolling at -1 BS.

 TheSilo wrote:
Firing into CC should be a special rule for conscripts (who should be renamed "penal legion").

Conscripts != Penal Legions, they're two distinct things.

Penal Legions are a mixed bag of veterans and cowards who have broken some arbitrary rules and assigned penal duties.
Conscripts are (relatively) trained but inexperienced in combat. Conscripts should have the same statline as Guardsmen, but lower LD and break faster unless they're near units of Veterans/Guardsmen.

It shouldn't be a universal IG rule.

Sure it should be. If you're seeing your buddies getting massacred by Orks, you're not going to stand there and say "Hey guys, we can't shoot over there. We might hit our guys instead of those big scary monsters that are going to be rushing and trying to massacre us next! Well guys, we might as well have a smoke break right now and watch."--you're going to start pouring fire into that mess and hope like hell you don't hit friendlies.

But it doesn't matter if you do hit friendlies, because even if you did--you just granted them a swifter and more merciful death.

It should be a universal rule when targeting gargantuan creatures, perhaps with you rolling at -1 BS.

...That is arbitrary and ridiculous.
"We can only shoot into the combat when it's something that is at LEAST four to five times the height of our guys--oh, and when we do we take a penalty."

 Selym wrote:
If what your saying is that all Infantry units act like a single big unit with a 12" spread, and the ability to select different targets per squad, then yes please

Yep pretty much!

Now in order to replace the beloved blob, we move Conscripts out of the platoon and make them a third troop choice. THIS is your tarpit and rear security unit -- not a 130pt platoon!

With an IC you can reliably bounce out of CC, you're now only losing 3pt bodies and you get some control over when your units get swept. Next scenario:

- 20x Conscripts with an IC Commissar get charged by 3x Necron Wraiths.
- With Summary Execution they hold anywhere from 3-5 combat phases.
- Your Commissar bounces out of combat, following the assault phase on your turn.
- Your Conscripts get mulched by the Wraiths on the enemy turn, as planned.
- You down the now exposed Wraiths with shooting on your next turn.

This would actually make Commissars very worthwhile against the other HQ choices; they read the battle and go where they're needed, acting as a force multiplier for the rest of the army. They're such an iconic unit too, they really need to be doing something impressive on the battlefield.

IC commissars would be a great change.

Oh, yeah, re: Vox & Orders, it's thematic, but I don't like it. It slows things down and parallels Psykers.

As IG have Psykers, they don't need Orders.

Simply allow any unit of IG to buy Vox and let them choose a Vox ability once per turn.

Orders are way too important thematically to the IG to be ditched. They can be reworked though.

Vox is a brilliant item to convey special rules and abilities to units. It should be the source of the IG's "chapter tactics".

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Oh, yeah, re: Vox & Orders, it's thematic, but I don't like it. It slows things down and parallels Psykers.

As IG have Psykers, they don't need Orders.

Simply allow any unit of IG to buy Vox and let them choose a Vox ability once per turn.

Aye, we have psykers. There is a reason that we dont use them though.

With Librarius Conclave as allies they are way overdue for some improvement.

Yoyoyo wrote:
With Librarius Conclave as allies they are way overdue for some improvement.

NOBODY CARES WHAT ALLIES OPENS UP.

Say it with me boys and girls.

"ALLIES ARE NOT WHAT A CODEX SHOULD BE BALANCED AROUND".

Seriously, we've had this discussion how many times in regards to Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus?



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 TheSilo wrote:
IC commissars would be a great change.

Or we could just get rid of those crummy units and leave them in Militarum Tempestus.

Since apparently it's mandatory to have Commissars in order to run any of the MT formations

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
IC commissars would be a great change.

Or we could just get rid of those crummy units and leave them in Militarum Tempestus.

Since apparently it's mandatory to have Commissars in order to run any of the MT formations

Commissars have been a staple of IG fluff and morale since introduction. Why should they be MT only?

I agree that Commissars are integral to the Guard, and I could see an option to attach one to any Platoon Command Squad, with a Senior Commissar automatically included in a CCS.

I am not sold on "free-roaming" Commissars, given the amount of structure in a "proper" IG force.

Nor am I big on massed Commissars at the Platoon Squad level, and even less so for a Veteran Squad.

Although I could see the option to add one to any unit of Ogryns. Or Psykers.

Commissars are senior attachments who oversee forces, they aren't line troops. They are going to go wherever they want.

Inside of the fluff, Summary Execution is the Guard's method of holding in CC. Thematically I think it works.

There might be a better rules buff to turn 50pts of Guardsmen or 60pts of Conscripts into an effective CC speed bump, but ICs are the Guard's enabler and there's no way you want to be losing 25pts every time a squad gets chewed up. It also makes Commissars more attractive against Priests; LCs might actually get some use out of their WS5.

Anyways, there might be better solutions but that's my first stab at helping CC at the troop level right now.

Aren't Commissars attached at the battalion or company level, rather than unit-by-unit? Just recalling reading Dead Men Walking, where a Commissar recalls getting to choose which regiment to be reassigned to after his previous job.

Massed Commissars makes no sense, having more than one or two in any given engagement does seem a bit odd.

I think Lord Commissars should give some sort of combat bonus to their squad. I believe someone suggested earlier that they should be the ones granting Zealot, not priests.

Have Commissars grant Crusader.

"Glory for the first man to die, chaaarge!"


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It's silly, ik, but funny