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So...what is the consensus on playing with the webstore exclusive formations without owning the actual rules, but rather downloading scans of the datasheet etc.?

Since they can only be purchased in very limited quantities, will your FLGS/group allow you to play with the likes of the Exalted Court of House Terryn or the Skyhammer Annihilation Force if you didn't purchase it? What about tournaments and ITC and the like?

I would personally allow it. There's no way that I can tell in real life if the person with a scanned document is bringing a scan of their own documents, or bringing one that was obtained illegally.

Whether or not I enjoy the game is another matter entirely.

What are these formations and are they pretty good?

I wouldn't object to playing.

However, I will let my opponent know that if I lose they must present me a copy of the formation! If I win, they must sign a statement (provided by me at the time) swearing undying allegiance to my army's faction! Mua-ha-ha!

Yeh, so I won't mind playing...

Formations I know of so far...

Exalted Court of House Terryn
Cohort Mechanicus
Skyhammer Annihilation Force

Nope; you didn't buy it and it's still available?

You don't get to play it. After it's No Longer Available--fine, whatever.

I don't really care because the rules are simply too expensive in general. As long as you have a copy of the actual rules for reference on hand I'll play. Of course, this excludes the noobhammer annihilation force for the sake of me wanting to actually play a game instead of just showing you my models.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nope; you didn't buy it and it's still available?

You don't get to play it. After it's No Longer Available--fine, whatever.

This applies to the webstore exclusive formations, meaning that they only sell a few hundred of them. At this point in time they are all sold out and supposedly won't be sold again, and they generally sell out within a few days of them being posted.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nope; you didn't buy it and it's still available?

You don't get to play it. After it's No Longer Available--fine, whatever.

You're trolling right?

Play what you want dude, don't play guys like this

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nope; you didn't buy it and it's still available?

You don't get to play it. After it's No Longer Available--fine, whatever.

You're trolling right?

Play what you want dude, don't play guys like this

I'm not sure if the guy is trolling or not. I'll say this though, I do get the general sentiment of "if you don't have the rules you can't use them". Unfortunately, that no longer applies with the webstore exclusive formations to a certain extent, because not only do you have to buy a super-expensive bundle of modles to get them, but they are limited edition so you can only get them for a few days. That makes them prohibitively difficult to use since very, very few people will actually have access to a "physical copy" of the rules.

In this case? Of course you should be allowed to play. A formation shouldn't be exclusive to a few hundred people who bought a box with dev squads, assault squads, and drop pods. Ridiculous.

I'm sure it will be on battlescribe.

In a friendly environment, as long as you've got the document in some form so I can check it is being played properly? Fine.

However, in a competitive environment I think it's a much more complicated conversation.

Don't think there's any uncertainty in a tournament situation either. There's nothing different between getting the PDF off the web or buying it. Anyone can get a digital copy of the rules online, there's nothing saying "this person bought this" and "this person just DL'd it".

Well, when it comes down to it - how would anybody be able to tell if it's a "legitimate" copy or not? As your opponent, I'm not really in a position to demand you produce some kind of proof of purchase just to use rules you very well could have obtained legitimately. So just in terms of actually using the exclusive formations, you absolutely could I think, regardless of the source.

For me, then it becomes a question of personal accountability and maybe a little morality. Are you the kind of person that doesn't feel like paying cash moneys for a slip of paper listing rules that you could just as easily get off of Google? Especially when that paper quickly becomes Out Of Print? I think there are sound arguments for and against it, but I'm almost certainly not smart enough to do either one justice

Except there is no PDF version. There's the official version on a piece of laminated paper. Like Vrosh Tattersoul in the Dark Vengeance box. Anything else is a scan (from my understanding of it). So it's easy to tell it's not official, but who friggin cares. Rules should not be exclusive to folks with spare money to burn with a specific timeframe. Someone could come in with the rules scribbled on a toilet paper roll and as long as it checks out against my own downloaded version/online source, play it.

I don't care where they obtain them or how, as long as they have a copy of the rules that I can actually review so I know what's going on.

That said, with the ridiculousness of things like the House Terryn and Skyhammer Annihilation force, I don't think I'd play against them regardless, but that's another topic.

Balance issues aside however, I honestly don't care what rules a person is using or how they obtained them, as long as they have them.

I’d like to see a clear copy/dataslate. Rules just pulled from a rumor site, or a fuzzy leaked WD snapshot could have things missing/hidden. Programs like Battlescribe, while good for summaries, I’d not trust to give the whole picture. This goes for everything, not just the exclusive webstore stuff. If there is a rules issue, I want to be able to read the source.

But past that, I don’t care.

 Yarium wrote:
I would personally allow it. There's no way that I can tell in real life if the person with a scanned document is bringing a scan of their own documents, or bringing one that was obtained illegally.

Whether or not I enjoy the game is another matter entirely.

Exactly this. The burden of proof rests on whoever is making a claim that a set of rules has been obtained "illegally". And because you can't be expected to incriminate yourself had you been naughty you can just claim that your copy is a photocopied one from your original one that's safely back at home.

It takes a whole few seconds to type "skyhammer annihilation force rules" into Google and clicking on an image result that comes up and everyone knows this.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I would personally allow it. There's no way that I can tell in real life if the person with a scanned document is bringing a scan of their own documents, or bringing one that was obtained illegally.

Whether or not I enjoy the game is another matter entirely.

Exactly this. The burden of proof rests on whoever is making a claim that a set of rules has been obtained "illegally". And because you can't be expected to incriminate yourself had you been naughty you can just claim that your copy is a photocopied one from your original one that's safely back at home.

It takes a whole few seconds to type "skyhammer annihilation force rules" into Google and clicking on an image result that comes up and everyone knows this.

Precisely this. Also as has been said, it's kind of a dumb situation GW put us in to begin with!

 Jambles wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I would personally allow it. There's no way that I can tell in real life if the person with a scanned document is bringing a scan of their own documents, or bringing one that was obtained illegally.

Whether or not I enjoy the game is another matter entirely.

Exactly this. The burden of proof rests on whoever is making a claim that a set of rules has been obtained "illegally". And because you can't be expected to incriminate yourself had you been naughty you can just claim that your copy is a photocopied one from your original one that's safely back at home.

It takes a whole few seconds to type "skyhammer annihilation force rules" into Google and clicking on an image result that comes up and everyone knows this.

Precisely this. Also as has been said, it's kind of a dumb situation GW put us in to begin with!

I 100% agree.

I'd love to hear what a few official tourney organizers say about it.

I feel that if you're going to use them, you should own a legit copy. This applies to all rules, including big book and codices. The exception is for trialing something new, and using a group/club copy.

You know that only 200 "legit" copies exist, right?

 Blacksails wrote:
I feel that if you're going to use them, you should own a legit copy. This applies to all rules, including big book and codices. The exception is for trialing something new, and using a group/club copy.

In general I'd agree with you.

In this circumstance, don't you think it is prohibitively difficult to actually get the physical copy of the rules? Of all of the players of 40K in all the world, only a few hundred will end up owning a copy. This is not a matter of buying a rulebook, since if you are able to run the formation you have already paid the monetary requirements to play it (the actual rules are free with the purchase of the web bundle). Thus, we would be limiting it essentially to the people who had the money to buy a set of models within a very short period of time. If they sold the rules separately, I'd be behind you in saying that you need to buy them if you want to use them. In this case, I'd say that a verified scan would do just fine.

Pretty much what Vak said, couldnt care less as long as I get to review them/check them to ensure no "fast ones" get pulled.
And No, a crayon scrawl on an old newspaper dont count either.

When the rules are getting so OTT, scarcity is the only balancing factor.

I realize how limited it is.

Now, my morals are fairly loose when it comes to material like this, but I feel the best thing for all 40k players to do is just pretend like this formation doesn't exist. I don't think anyone should be rewarding GW for putting rules behind paywalls, and I don't think we should be playing with such a blatantly unbalanced rule sheet, especially one locked behind a pay wall. Its the very definition of pay to win, and its terrible for the game.

As such, I'm basically going to ignore it. I may let an excited opponent I otherwise like use it against me once, but I doubt any more than that.

Then again, I feel that someone who plays against me should have the rules in some form on them, though I obviously can't verify if they're legit or not, and I certainly wouldn't turn down a game if someone had ripped a PDF onto their tablet.

Personally, any rule I use in game I own a physical copy somewhere, but I'm also not opposed to having a copy in a different format (PDF) on a more portable device.

I think its a bit of a moot point though in practice, seeing as many non-tourney players will be reluctant to play against this regularly. Further, I feel that many tourneys will require some official, legitimate copy of all rules being used, but that's up to the TO.

I'm waiting on an answer from a local non-gw TO

I cant imagine any GW tournaments banning this

Its all over the internet at this point and just because someone does not have the physical copy of the rules does not be they should not be allowed to play with it, honestly it sounds more like your looking for any excuse to not let them use it. Instead of getting all uppity over a strong Formation by refusing to let people use it learn to play against it, you know think constructively otherwise it just looks like a cop out.

Well besides the only 200 copies made, what is the difference from using scanned codices? There is no difference.

So if people are ok with using scanned PDF's then it's fine using the web exclusive bundle. If people are not find with using scanned PDF's then it's not fine using the web exclusive bundle.

Illegal is illegal. So it all depends on the person you are playing. For me, I play for fun and don't care. If this will cause you to have fun, I will try it out and play it.

It is still available in AU

As long as they have a physical, accurate and clear copy of the formation rules I could not care less where it came from. I think making rules exclusive to those willing to drop $300+ on models at the drop of a hat is wrong.