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Pain4Pleasure wrote:Sounds like one of those crappy 40k authors.. those, we serious 40kers don't consider cannon. Also, everyone knows necrons are a bit... Weak? I mean.. you guys die to imperial guard mass fire... Mass fire... Think on that. Us orks. We win if we win and win if we lose. You..just lose

What, you mean... Andy Chambers, Gavin Thorpe and Rick Priestley? Those guys no serious 40kers considers canon?

Besides, Orks... don't win if they lose. They just don't philosophically understand the concept of defeat. I can't comprehend the philosophical state of nonexistence. Doesn't mean it can't happen.

raiden wrote:I'm going to throw my own voice out here.

Roks- fewnof them would ever reach planets, there is book evidence (from imperial viewpoint) where a small necron fleet not only shot dead stars at speeds of just under light speed, but withstood the entire imperial volley before hand and took almost 0 damage, then engaging with gauss and other similar weaponry, again, almost all damage they received was already repairing itself

They move at speeds just under light speed in their ships, and can start, or stop on a dime, or even full reverse in a matter of fractions of seconds

Actually, the Inertialess Drive is more than capable of FTL, lol. Its how the Necrons get around the galaxy (other than during that strange blip that was the Wardex). At Orpheus, when they appeared out of nowhere in close orbit to the planet? That wasn't them decloaking, that was them dropping out of FTL. They then performed several Picard Manoeuvres in the space battle that followed, which also requires insanely precise FTL and better acceleration.

tgjensen wrote:Mektown was the only ork settlement on Angelis. It's a bit of a stretch, to say the least, to call that "a planet's worth" of orks. We're also talking about a marooned ork population, generally equipped with very low-tech gear and no larger war engines. The largest ork force mustered on Angelis is about as impressive as the toughest kid in 2nd grade.

In terms of Necron Tombs, it was also the equivalent of the biggest kid in 2nd grade rolling over in his sleep. The scale of 40k was smaller then Still the best counter-argument in this thread so far though.

A barely-awoken Necron Tomb still has access to all the Necron tech because that's where they kept it - with them, in their tombs. Plus it was their home turf. The situation doesn't really compare. We're one step away from Wildboyz here.

Also, and this is off topic but a pet grievance of mine; while the scale of Warhammer might have been smaller back then, the scale of the 40k universe was arguably larger because Epic was still alive and well. If anything, with the demise of Specialist Games, the 40k universe has shrunken to the point where an unrealistic degree of importance is placed on small-scale wargear and individuals. The opening text in the Epic: Armageddon rulebook is a quote by Commisar Yarrick:
"It is the purest folly to believe that an individual can save Armageddon. Wars are not won by heroes, they are won by firepower and force, and the application of strategy and tactics."

Nowadays wars mostly seem to be won by Marneus Calgar beating up the Swarmlord.

Yarrick... I kind of miss those days myself, even if I do prefer a more 'Kellys Heroes' approach to 40k than 'CGI Orks' style.

If Necrons don't reproduce, and only repair, entropy will eventually lead to their defeat, they can't possibly win in these circumstances. like the Eldar, they are truly a dying race, unable to replace their losses effectively. They might be able to chuck Neutron stars about, but do they have enough to take on the whole Universe?

According to fluff, Orks exist outside of the Milky Way, in all directions. I don't know if Necrons do.
This means that the sheer amount of Orks would boggle the mind (if they actually existed). Even if the Necrons went on a wild rampage slaughtering orks by the billion, they would possibly still have an entire universe of Orks to deal with, and unless they eradicated every Ork utterly, then they would start popping back up again on the planets they were on before. Even one Spore would be enough, as given time, that lone Ork would shed more spores over it's lifetime, until it died.
The Necrons might use Gauss technology, but they don't kill every Ork that way. Plus the Orks presumably moved about in the local area shedding spores as they went, or were they marching to battle. Basically they would have to do as the Tyranids do and take the whole planet down to it's BedRock.
Infact maybe only the Tyranids are the other contenders for Galaxy wide domination, the Necrons are in the long game, out of it really. The only way they could "Win" is to stay hidden, and hope to outlive the Orks by waiting for the heat death of the universe.

The dynasties uniting is as likely as Orks uniting so if the hypothetical scenario of Necrons uniting is used then the unification of the Orks is also useable. I like the point made that the fluff is very clear that should the Orks unite they would sweep the entire galaxy. Necrons don't have that specified and they were united once, look where that got them. It wasn't the Old Ones that sent the Necron into hiding it was warp spawned machinations. The Warp still continues and races that existed in those times (like the Orks) still exist today and in the case of the Orks thrived to the point of being the most succesful and prolific of the races.

Sorry to the one who thought the whole billion to one ratio was mary sue fluff. I wasn't making that point to suggest that a single Necron is capable of such a feat but rather to point out the sheer amount of attrition the Orks can laugh off. I didn't do the number justice. Hundreds of billions of Orks can be annihalated in a single swipe and they can still laugh it off.

Wiping out the Orks is a feat on par to wiping out all the stars in the galaxy. I believe the Necrons with the help of C'tan tried snuffing out all the stars once, even with the star killing power I guess it didn't pan out. Too many stars? Too time consuming? Something will counter? Exagerated myths? Stars still exist in the Milky Way.

Arent the Nids that come from a different galaxy, actually?

Necrons, helps that their infantry weapon counters the ork advantage handily.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Necrons, helps that their infantry weapon counters the ork advantage handily.

I never knew the Necrons were a rapid firing army mowing hordes under a hail of torrential gunfire. Cuz that's what it is needed to counter the first Ork advantage of sheer numbers running over their own dead bodies let alone the second advantage of spores.

Even then. This prolific race is constantly found everywhere even asteroids and dead planets or popping out of the warp from some journey that began thousands of yrs ago. Spores find their way back on planets that have been declared Exterminatus in the past because of an asteroid hitting or a pile of space hulk junk pops out of the warp. Constantly throughout history the Orks keep reappearing behind the army back on the planets thought to be extinct before. They are just as old as the Eldar, not waning like the Eldar and didn't go into slumber like the Necron. Their spores are everywhere waiting for the environment conditions to sprout again. Their seemingly endless nature isn't an exageration, it's built in their genetic design.

Their guns disintegrate their targets, spores included, and the whole spore thing in itself is increfdibly overrated, if the Imperium of all faction can remove orks permanently from their own planets, then so can the Necrons.

But the Imperium can't. That's the point. They reappear back even on planets made Exterminatus. Eldar in their heyday had far more then what Imperium can do, if the Imperium can drop their Xenophobia long enough perhaps they canask the Eldar why they too haven't been able to stop the Orks continued growing control of the galaxy.

You say that but the entire Dark Angels Chapter failed at doing that according to the latest Unforgiven book. So clearly it's incredibly difficult.

They simply just so prevalent across the whole galaxy that they are coming right back in behind IG as they move on to where they are called next. All the asteroids, all the systems, all the hulks, all the ones still stuck in travel in the warp waiting to pop out of their next random location, everything that has or had orks on it, all of it needs to be done almost all at once to get rid of the Orks. Otherwise they keep reappearing with their numbers back intact and then some.

 Bobthehero wrote:
and the whole spore thing in itself is increfdibly overrated

Well I guess the number of sleeping tomb worlds is overated as well as the number of atoms getting wiped by their gauss guns. Or we have what the fluff gives us.

The Imperium can remove orks permanently, they've done it before.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Their guns disintegrate their targets, spores included, and the whole spore thing in itself is increfdibly overrated, if the Imperium of all faction can remove orks permanently from their own planets, then so can the Necrons.

Only at that point. What about the spores that the Ork has been happily shedding whilst waltzing about the place prior to his death? That, and the hundreds/ thousands/ millions of his mates who are also running about making a mess of the place and shedding spores all over the shop.
Orks shed spores whilst they are alive too, not just at the point of death. Basically, in this scenario, it wouldn't matter how powerful the Necrons are, they would simply run out of ammo/ power before the orks ran out of bodies. They can chuck as many Neutron stars about as they like, but whilst they're mucking about thowing them in one direction, a billion billion orks are sneaking up on them from every other direction. How many Neutron stars have they got? Are they twin linked?

Ah, but the Necrons have a perfect weapon for hunting down and destroying Ork Spores that have taken root - they can literally blanket the planet with Scarab swarms and eliminate every single one. Much more efficient than the Imperial method, which basically involves roving teams of soldiers with flamethrowers.

Necrons walk it.
The Orks weren't enough to stop them during the War in Heaven, and Necrons have some truly fearsome fire power even in the present.
Just look at the weapon they unleash in Shield of Baal, able to throw back Leviathan with a single volley.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
For some reason I feel the incoming Tyranids is why Gork and Mork want Ghazzy to build up enough Waaagh!

It's actually the rising power of Chaos.

^ let me expand on this

War in heaven.

Necrons

Vs

Eldar (at height)
Old ones
Orkz (at height, with brain boyz)

Necrons kicked the keesters of all three factions across the galaxy

IIRC BROKE into the webbay

Then, managed to TRICK the Ctan into helping them ERASE the old ones from existence, before SHATTERING the Ctan themselves.

Necrons then went on kicking the keesters of orkz and eldar until they said.

"Screw this, we can sleep/wait for millions of years, we don't have to fight you."

And slept. Sure it didn't go as planned, but every necron tomb world waking up, and every dynasty uniting under the silent king who has been alive since the war in heaven with quite possibly every necron tomb world having the ability to become a world engine.


On top of the ridiculous space tech they have....

Gauss weapons literally de atomize targets,

Orks create the most spores on death, the ones that fall off during moving/etc are much less.

I tend to go with the entropy theory of Necron defeat. Because 'Crons don't create new 'Crons easily, if at all, every lost Cron conciousness is literally irreplaceable. Meanwhile every Ork on every planet is happily shedding spores, creating more Orks, while the Necron replacement rate is essentially zero.

Over time the trillions upon trillions of Orks can overwhelm awakened Tomb Worlds one at a time. The Crons will definitely make the Orks pay ten, twenty, thirty times Cron losses for each planet, but a loss is still a loss.

Orks will Waaagh - concentrate wherever da best fightin iz - so they'll tend to concentrate without the need to issue orders or coordinate. Granted they'll get suckered into many an ambush and trap that way, but the losses are meh to them.

By the way, Gauss weaponry (and Tesla, and everything else) are not Star Trek phasers that totally annihilate an Ork when they hit him in the pinkie. If that was true every Cron weapon would be Instant Death. They're not; a multi wound Ork Nob can take a wound from a Cron weapon and keep fighting. It's quite possible that an Ork can be slain by Crons and still have the death-surge of spore shedding.

Of course, Crons are more than capable of purging life down to the cellular level on a world they control. That'd include any lingering Ork spores. But apparently Crons seldom do that. If they did every Tomb World would be utterly devoid of life. You wouldn't have Tomb Worlds popping up under Kaurava III, for example, which is a well established trope in Necron lore.

I have to agree that using Angelis (Gorkamorka) as an example of Necron superiority is a bit of a stretch, though it's also instructive. The Crons did not wipe out all the Orks who entered their tomb complex - there were a few survivors, and not all the Orks on Angelis went inside to begin with. Think city population, not planetary, though Mektown was far and away the largest Ork settlement.

Interestingly, the Crons didn't come out of the complex to finish the job either. Also interestingly, the Diggas (degenerate humans, Mechanicum expedition as I recall) could supposedly control the 'Crons' to a limited extent. Which begs the question of whether they were Crons at all. Between Diggas control and limited response to invasion they could easily have been Men of Iron or some other human construct.

I agree that Crons should win man for man. But even in 40K at equal points playing Crons against Orks is not auto-win. Add to that the problem that Orks never show up in 'equal numbers'. Add to that the fact that unlike the Imperium logistics never seem to be an issue. I think the Necrons are in trouble in the OPs scenario.

By the way, it's not that Orks don't have tactics that causes opponents trouble. They do. Some Warbosses, like Ghazzy, Nazdreg, even Kaptin Badruuk and Blood Axes in general are noted as being particulalry cunning. Look at Snikrot, who knows how to put his Redskull Kommandos exactly where they're needed on an enemy flank or in their rear.

The problem for Ork opponents is that, like their gear, Ork Tactics are highly kustomized and individualized. What other races write off as luck or low cunning (to salve their egos when they lose) is actually a case of Orks having no doctrine.

Look at the War of the Dakka, where Grog Ironteef outmaneuvered, trapped, outshot and annihilated Tau forces on Vor'sanar on their way to ransacking the entire sector. Farsight certainly takes Orks seriously.

More on point, Imotehk the Stormlord lost his 4+ to steal initiative against Orks. One would think if Orks were truly mindless tactically speaking it would be easier, not harder, to steal a march on them.

So I'd submit that for strategic reasons like reproduction, industry, logistics and the concentrating effects of Waaagh the Orks are going to be a tough customer for the Crons to beat, much in the same way the Crons would be seriously tested by the Tyranids. Tactically it would be foolish to sell Orks short - they are spontaneous, unpredictable, and not nearly as fixated on frontal Ork wave assaults as many people seem to think.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Orks are an auto win against Crons. It'd be a horrific bloody struggle, and the Crons may well be clever enough to find a way to win. If the Crons started losing too badly they might even opt to go back into hibernation. But I will say that strategically I'd give the edge to the Orks.

I know, TL, DR. But that'd be the non-reader's problem, and proof of both ignorance and lack of attention span!

My twenty-five cents

I'd still say necrons, they can travel at FTL speeds at the press of a button. And they arent afraid of nuetron staring a planet to kill all the orks on it if they were going to lose otherwise. Rokz would be intercepted and destroyed almost 80% of the time.

After reflection, I put my money on the necrons.
The necrons is the only faction, with maybe the Tyranids, wich,, in the fluff, almost never loose.
I mean: every time the Imperium fight them, wether it win with huges casualities ((world engine, for exemple) or it loose: (Fall of Orpheus, etc...).
Imperium vs orks, or Chaos or whatever, shows some defeat for the Imperium, but a lot of win, including easy wins (even the Ultramarines struggles with the necrons^^).
And the Necrons are just awakening.

There are A LOT of necrons (they are always described being legions and legions).
Of course, the number of Orks is immeasurably superior.
Necrons aren't easily destroyed, they teleport themselves when they are hurted.

Strategically, Necrons are better in space and really quicker (they don't rely on warp for space travel, and have always been described as being exceptionnally fast).
They could regroup/attack/reinforce/do redeployments before the Orks.
Maybe none would be able to erase the other, but I do think Necrons have the edge.
I think we shouldn't bring TT cases to this discussions, as TT and fluff are two very differentes things.

Just two question: can they still produce canoptek things ? They aren't crons, just robots IIRC, so, why not ?
I never heard about orks outside the Milky Way, just a probe sent from Terra during Age of Strife, which record only orks signals everywhere it goes, showing Orks are everywhere in this galaxy.

The Orks win at zane. They can match the Necrons at witty banter (but they no longer win massively, not since 5th.)

Unfortunately for the orks, neither zane nor witty banter wins wars.

 raiden wrote:
^ let me expand on this

Spoiler:

War in heaven.

Necrons

Vs

Eldar (at height)
Old ones
Orkz (at height, with brain boyz)

Necrons kicked the keesters of all three factions across the galaxy

IIRC BROKE into the webbay

Then, managed to TRICK the Ctan into helping them ERASE the old ones from existence, before SHATTERING the Ctan themselves.

Necrons then went on kicking the keesters of orkz and eldar until they said.

"Screw this, we can sleep/wait for millions of years, we don't have to fight you."

And slept. Sure it didn't go as planned, but every necron tomb world waking up, and every dynasty uniting under the silent king who has been alive since the war in heaven with quite possibly every necron tomb world having the ability to become a world engine.


On top of the ridiculous space tech they have....

Gauss weapons literally de atomize targets,

Orks create the most spores on death, the ones that fall off during moving/etc are much less.

You got that wrong, chap. The Necrons turned to the C'tan because the Old Ones kicked the gak out of them. They turned to the C'tan to beat the Old Ones, got tricked, and now they're robots. As robots, they beat the Old Ones, but then got bent over and raped by the Eldar. That's why the Necrons pulled a Brave Sir Robin and went to sleep for 60 million years- because the Eldar beat the gak out of them, C'tan or no C'tan.

EmpNortonII, have you ever heard of an 'Enslaver'?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 raiden wrote:
^ let me expand on this

Spoiler:

War in heaven.

Necrons

Vs

Eldar (at height)
Old ones
Orkz (at height, with brain boyz)

Necrons kicked the keesters of all three factions across the galaxy

IIRC BROKE into the webbay

Then, managed to TRICK the Ctan into helping them ERASE the old ones from existence, before SHATTERING the Ctan themselves.

Necrons then went on kicking the keesters of orkz and eldar until they said.

"Screw this, we can sleep/wait for millions of years, we don't have to fight you."

And slept. Sure it didn't go as planned, but every necron tomb world waking up, and every dynasty uniting under the silent king who has been alive since the war in heaven with quite possibly every necron tomb world having the ability to become a world engine.


On top of the ridiculous space tech they have....

Gauss weapons literally de atomize targets,

Orks create the most spores on death, the ones that fall off during moving/etc are much less.

You got that wrong, chap. The Necrons turned to the C'tan because the Old Ones kicked the gak out of them. They turned to the C'tan to beat the Old Ones, got tricked, and now they're robots. As robots, they beat the Old Ones, but then got bent over and raped by the Eldar. That's why the Necrons pulled a Brave Sir Robin and went to sleep for 60 million years- because the Eldar beat the gak out of them, C'tan or no C'tan.

Beat me to it. The Necrons got the ever living gak kicked out of them by the Old Ones. They had their back effectively broken and the only reason they continued to exist was because the Old Ones were content to merely fight off the offensive that the Necrons mounted.. basically crippling them in the process.

Then the C'tan came in, and did the heavy lifting. In fact, the only reason that the Necrons were able to shatter and imprison their star-gods was because the C'tan expended the vast majority of their power in defeating the Old Ones & co.. And, well, had been busy eating eachother.

After defeating and imprisoning the C'tan the Eldar started to bend the 'Crons over just like the Old Ones did in yester-year, and so they went and hid in their tombs for millions of years in the hopes of merely out-lasting their foes.

Whilst the Necrons are quite powerful and have technology which is essentially magic, they're not the literal gods people make them out to be. They were little more than annoying gnats to the Old Ones, and even the Eldar Empire pretty-well curb stomped them once they no longer had literal gods fighting for them.

 Ashiraya wrote:
EmpNortonII, have you ever heard of an 'Enslaver'?

Have you ever read the Necron codex? If the Necrons were half as powerful as their supporters in this thread think they are, the galaxy would be full of nothing but Necrons. 'Crons would single-handedly stomp every faction in the game, simultaneously.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
EmpNortonII, have you ever heard of an 'Enslaver'?

Have you ever read the Necron codex? If the Necrons were half as powerful as their supporters in this thread think they are, the galaxy would be full of nothing but Necrons. 'Crons would single-handedly stomp every faction in the game, simultaneously.

Not even slightly. You're just underestimating the Old Ones.

However, the Orks do not have the Old Ones in their side in this conflict, so they are toast.

The Necron codex speaks of the Old Ones' power, not that of the Orks or Eldar. It explains how the Old Ones were defeated by being caught between Enslavers-and-friends, Necrons, and C'tan.

Without the Old Ones' mastery of the Warp, the Orks won't stand a chance against the Necrons.

Necrons are, however, one of the three endgame players who stand a chance of final victory in 40k, alongside Chaos and Tyranids.

Orks' one advantage is numbers (and even that is limited, if Necrons are indeed more numerous than humanity; a possibility that has been suggested). However, they can't bring these numbers to bear against the Necrons effectively, and the Necrons win in every other field.

Indeed, the Necrons could arguably defeat the Orks by solely using one device - the Celestial Orrery.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Indeed, the Necrons could arguably defeat the Orks by solely using one device - the Celestial Orrery.

And subsequently have nothing to rule over, because they'd have to snuff every sun / destroy every planet in the Milkway (and beyond) to eradicate the Orks.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Indeed, the Necrons could arguably defeat the Orks by solely using one device - the Celestial Orrery.

And subsequently have nothing to rule over, because they'd have to snuff every sun / destroy every planet in the Milkway (and beyond) to eradicate the Orks.

Ok, they can live in cold, frozen planets just fine...

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Indeed, the Necrons could arguably defeat the Orks by solely using one device - the Celestial Orrery.

And subsequently have nothing to rule over, because they'd have to snuff every sun / destroy every planet in the Milkway (and beyond) to eradicate the Orks.

The Orks do not hold every world in the galaxy.

But the thing can cause a big chain reaction that very well could wipe out stars that held non ork planets in orbit.