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Orks.

If all the Orks in the galaxy ever united... bye-bye galaxy, and everything in it. That includes all the Necrons. The Necrons at their peak are long dead, the shells that remain are in decline. Orks are still Orks, they've spread and thrived, and spread some more, and thrived some more. They're everywhere... and they keep spreading and thriving. Added to this is the fact that the bigger and badder the wars become, the more the Orks feed off the carnage, growing more and more powerful. Added to this is also the fact that they consume and cannibalise any tech that's thrown at them, turning it into a mulitude of unfathomable, cunningly brutal and brutally cunning uses. Added to this is also the fact that the combined psychic energy generated by all the Orks gathering together would result in... things happening. Things so crazy, so insane that they can't even be explained. The galaxy's one saving grace is that they are just too violent, unstable and undiciplined to ever organise themselves into a single, colossal WHAAGH! Take that saving grace away for a hypothetical scenario and... well, bye-bye galaxy, bye-bye Necrons, and everything else along with them.

@Psi True to that point, well part of it. I too recognize that Necron and Orks have fought against each other 60 million yrs ago. Both side were soooooo unsuccessful that the fluff for both says each of their numbers are uncountable. Of course it's not as simple as that. But I'll add that the Ork weren't created to fight Necrons. The Orks were created sometime after the Eldar and sometime before the Enslaver Plaque. The Orks were created at the same time as the Ape like Joekaro and one other race I think didn't survive. They were created to help fight the first warp spawned entities inadvertantly created from the first psykic races that were created to fight Necrons. The Necrons didn't defeat the Old Ones (it's actually unsure if they were defeated or left) it was their own machinations that delivered the big blow that sent the Old Ones packing. Their home and sanctuary became a twisted thing of nightmares.

Necrons finish the pylons, rip the real space away from warp. Ork waaaagh energy is now meaningless..

What happens to be in the way of the Necrons and the Pylons? I see Cadians, a few Space Marine chapters and a 13th Crusade spiced in with some Xenos for flavour. Also the Pylons were a C'tan thing, weren't they? One of the concessions I want to try and get is that the Necrons will have to go back to being slaves to the C'tan if they want to defeat the Ork race.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
What happens to be in the way of the Necrons and the Pylons? I see Cadians, a few Space Marine chapters and a 13th Crusade spiced in with some Xenos for flavour. Also the Pylons were a C'tan thing, weren't they? One of the concessions I want to try and get is that the Necrons will have to go back to being slaves to the C'tan if they want to defeat the Ork race.

No, Ctan thought of the idea, necron tech built it.

Pretty sure the necrons would fairly easily (easy by 40k standards is pretty tough..) Take enough of the planet.

Remember they are unified, so half their army would be sent there, tossing out tech that even chaos can't beat with their petty magics.

Remember, it works both ways, orks waaagh energy =\= auto win, as necrons have counters to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add on, they'd probably need to release more ctan shards then they'd like though

No, the Pylons are built by the Necrons. Were they directed to do so by the C'Tan? Maybe, but they are now in possession of that knowledge, and still possess their pokeballed C'Tan should they need to refer to them.

Yup that clarifies it. I agree that this would be one of the most effective strategies a faction can use to topple the Ork race. If the Necrons are united and went straight for Cadia in full force, yeah with some appreciable losses I think they can take Cadia and do the project. It would probably result in the end of the 13th Crusade too (Ork fluff says if the two Ork kingdoms noth of the Eye united and migrated out it would be enough to take the steam out of that Crusade so a united Necron and united Ork scenario could see that day through). But yeah without the Warp the Orks reality altering Waaaagh! energy which is so pivotal to their race is gone and they'd litteraly become just barbarians. I wonder if Gork and Mork will understand what's happening if that project started up again as I bet they as well as the Chaos Lords would be motivated into countering it. Cadia would once again continue to be the site of a most epic war with Necrons holding a static defence to protect the project and Orks flinging themselves into the meatgrinder to try and stop it and maybe even loot it.

Both armies meet in the first clash and the energy of that exchange creates a singularity which will suck up anything trying to get out of the Eye of Terror.

 raiden wrote:
Necrons finish the pylons, rip the real space away from warp. Ork waaaagh energy is now meaningless..

Except no... because that only works under the assumption that the unified Orks (including their psychic energy) would allow the Necrons to "finish the pylons", something which may or may not even be possible any more. And if it is, it will take a long time and a lot of resources, two things the Necrons won't have when facing the Orks. The WHAAGH energy is only one of the factors I listed above, so even if the Necrons had a magic anti-WHAAGH button (which they don't) it wouldn't win the war for them. Not even close.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Yup that clarifies it. I agree that this would be one of the most effective strategies a faction can use to topple the Ork race. If the Necrons are united and went straight for Cadia in full force, yeah with some appreciable losses I think they can take Cadia and do the project.

But again, if the Necrons have united, so have the Orks. There's a crucial difference here... the Necrons have to head straight for Cadia, "finish the pylons" - something which they may or may not be able to actually do, and which will take an unknown amount of time. The Orks will already have the WHAAGH energy through the very act of unifying. Once they've unified, you think they're just going to sit back and wait while the Necrons make their attempt? Lol, no.

True. I've got no idea how long it would take to work on those Pylons. If it takes million or so years (these Necrons and their timeline on those days...) then the meatgrinder will probably come to an end before it's finished because the Waaaaaaagh! is already in effect for the scenario.

I would say that despite the other cool things Orks can do, particularly with grabbing and modifying any tech they steal no matter how complicated, they would need to Waaaaaagh! to work as it's the beacon by which all that massive numbers of hordes know exactly where to go for da big fight. It's that ever prevalant gestalt force that ties all the Orkiness together elegantly.

Fluff, eh, not sure. It has been said that if orks were to ever unite they'd crush the galaxy, but that could probably be reasonably said for just about any faction. Even the imperium is too fractious and disorganized to actually fight as a group.

But if my tabletop experiences my orks v. necrons is any indicator, necrons would exterminate orks from the galaxy with little to no resistance whatsoever.

And if it is, it will take a long time and a lot of resources,

Citation needed.

Rule #1 is politeness thanks, motyak

 Psienesis wrote:
Citation needed.

Nope. First I need to see the source proving that the project, as envisioned and attempted by the C'tan, is even attainable by the Necrons at this point, that simply taking Cadia and "finishing the pylons" there will even result in a galaxy-wide warp block (as opposed to just a localised area), and that this endevour is possible instantaneously (unlikely). Once all that is proven, I need to see a source proving that the unified Necrons can accomplish that without the unified Orks stopping them.

Then, and only then, you may have the beginnings of an argument with legs.

Rogue Inquisitor Quixos, a human, built a Necron Pylon on a shoestring budget while hiding from the rest of the Inquisition on a planet with none of the natural resources required to construct such a thing.

The event is detailed in Malleus by Dan Abnett.

The Necrons have an infinite number of autonomous construction robots, native non-warp-based FTL travel and easy access to the raw materials. It seems evident that they are more than capable of exceeding the achievements of a long rogue human.

The Necrons don't even need to take Cadia. They've already finished working on Cadia. They just need to build the pylons across the rest of the galaxy.

Given the recent developments in Necron fluff, however, it seems likely that the entire Pylon is little more than an amplifier for the same technology that creates the Gloom Prisms.

While the Necrons have been napping, the Orks have multiplied exponentially, and have also spent the last few millennia fighting everything, upto and including Demons, Primachs and huge fanged dribbly things from another galaxy.
The Necrons have quite a bit of catching up to do, and would find that all their shiny toys wouldn't save them from having their arses comprehensively handed to them in a sling.

The Necrons might wirte big fluff, but they are a dead species, and every time they pop up out of a Tomb, a big bunch of them get sent to the big smelting pot in the sky. By the time they get around to waking up, there won't be any left.

Ork multiplication is limited because they are scattered and constantly infighting, keep that in mind.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They just need to build the pylons across the rest of the galaxy.

Oh, is that all?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ork multiplication is limited because they are scattered and constantly infighting, keep that in mind.

Not for this hypothetical scenario, they aren't.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They just need to build the pylons across the rest of the galaxy.

Oh, is that all?

Yep. Pretty much it.

A few billion Night Scythes loaded with Tomb Spyders should do the trick in short order. Set the pylons up on airless moons where the orks can't be bothered to go. Jobs a good'un.

 Anfauglir wrote:

Not for this hypothetical scenario, they aren't.

But they have been during the time the Necrons were asleep, which was what I was responding to.

Anyone still have the old cron codex? I know it states that completion of the pylons solely on Cadia will severe the Materium from the Immaterium but I don't remember if it was on a galactic or universal scale. And to help with the whole citation needed shenanigans.

Also, nothing has been published since to my knowledge that retcons the pylons in any manner.

 r_squared wrote:
While the Necrons have been napping, the Orks have multiplied exponentially, and have also spent the last few millennia fighting everything, upto and including Demons, Primachs and huge fanged dribbly things from another galaxy.
The Necrons have quite a bit of catching up to do, and would find that all their shiny toys wouldn't save them from having their arses comprehensively handed to them in a sling.

The Necrons might wirte big fluff, but they are a dead species, and every time they pop up out of a Tomb, a big bunch of them get sent to the big smelting pot in the sky. By the time they get around to waking up, there won't be any left.

A single Dynasty of the Necrons took, what, 30 Imperial Worlds, including Hive Worlds, an Inquisitorial Fortress World, a Space Marine Homeworld (which was vaporized), and caused a star to become unstable, which incinerated a space-fortress and everything on the daylight side of a planet inside of 100 days? A single Dynasty, thoroughly riddled with the Flayer Virus, caused the complete collapse of an Imperial Sector inside of a year.

The Necrons raided Mars ffs, while the Orks have never been reported to have come anywhere near the Sol System.

Damaging a Necron to the point of irrepairability simply means that it doesn't stand up again. It phases out, its personality engram downloaded into a new Necrodermis shell.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ork multiplication is limited because they are scattered and constantly infighting, keep that in mind.

Eh. It's a matter of time before the Destroyers go nuts enough to forget that the Necrons aren't alive.

Past that, the C'tan have not given up. Hell, there's still a complete one waiting to escape Mars.



... the Necrons have some huge liabilities that are going to bite them on their shiny metal asses.

The Void Dragon on Mars is not complete, since you can take shards of it in your Necron army.

IRT the Pylons, the ones on Cadia are complete. It's the reason the Cadian Gate exists. The Necrons would need to establish a ring of them around the Eye of Terror (and in other locations in the galaxy, potentially) to fully cut the galaxy off from the Warp.

This is assuming, of course, that other Pylons are not already present elsewhere in the galaxy.

Beyond that, we don't know much about them. Maybe they work with a sympathetic effect? Build a certain number of them lining up with certain stars and, bang, the whole thing is an arcane science ritual that shuts the Warp off forever? We don't know. Maybe they work like ley-lines? Connect the dots between the Pylons and it makes some symbol, like a constellation, that, once complete, seals the Warp away. Or causes all psychically-sensitive races to immolate. Or both.

 Psienesis wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
While the Necrons have been napping, the Orks have multiplied exponentially, and have also spent the last few millennia fighting everything, upto and including Demons, Primachs and huge fanged dribbly things from another galaxy.
The Necrons have quite a bit of catching up to do, and would find that all their shiny toys wouldn't save them from having their arses comprehensively handed to them in a sling.

The Necrons might wirte big fluff, but they are a dead species, and every time they pop up out of a Tomb, a big bunch of them get sent to the big smelting pot in the sky. By the time they get around to waking up, there won't be any left.

A single Dynasty of the Necrons took, what, 30 Imperial Worlds, including Hive Worlds, an Inquisitorial Fortress World, a Space Marine Homeworld (which was vaporized), and caused a star to become unstable, which incinerated a space-fortress and everything on the daylight side of a planet inside of 100 days? A single Dynasty, thoroughly riddled with the Flayer Virus, caused the complete collapse of an Imperial Sector inside of a year.

That's because they are gurly oomans iz wot.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Void Dragon on Mars is not complete, since you can take shards of it in your Necron army.

IRT the Pylons, the ones on Cadia are complete. It's the reason the Cadian Gate exists. The Necrons would need to establish a ring of them around the Eye of Terror (and in other locations in the galaxy, potentially) to fully cut the galaxy off from the Warp.

This is assuming, of course, that other Pylons are not already present elsewhere in the galaxy.

Beyond that, we don't know much about them. Maybe they work with a sympathetic effect? Build a certain number of them lining up with certain stars and, bang, the whole thing is an arcane science ritual that shuts the Warp off forever? We don't know. Maybe they work like ley-lines? Connect the dots between the Pylons and it makes some symbol, like a constellation, that, once complete, seals the Warp away. Or causes all psychically-sensitive races to immolate. Or both.

The Cadian pylons aren't really talked about in the 3e codex - most of the fluff released around it was actually in White Dwarf and the BL novels of the time.

That said, sharding the Void Dragon was a huge mistake from a fluff point of view - the Emperor fought it in an epic battle that lasted days and crossed two planets.

If he was fighting a whole C'tan, that was awesome. If he was just fighting a C'tan Shard... well, that really makes him look a bit pathetic, really, given that Ahriman can punch a C'tan Shard's lights out in a matter of minutes.

Let's approach this from a different angle.

Yes, Necrons have powerful fluff.

But who controls the fluff? Games Workshop.

What controls GW? Model sales => Profits.

THE ULTIMATE QUESTION:
If GW fell on hard times financially and they had to dramatically cut the amount of product the produce and support, which army is more likely to get cut and which is more likely to survive?

I believe Orks sell more models and therefore, if push comes to shove, GW would write some 40k End Times fluff that explains the demise of Necrons and justifies the survival of Orks in the new, slimmed-down 40k universe. Put another way, can you picture the 40k universe without Necros? Can you picture it without Orks?

Only GW fluff can determine who wins and, as a business, GW fluff will support the Orks if they are ever forced to choose.

Personally, I think GW writes over-powered fluff for the Necrons to make them seem scary so people will take them seriously. I also think this is why they write over-powered rules for Necrons: they need help selling models.

Orks don't need help from the rules or fluff that makes them sound unstoppable to sell models. People buy and play Orks for the simple reason that they are the most fun army to model, paint and play in a hobby that is supposed to be fun. They are a well-designed product.

The winner of Necrons vs. Orks? In a gaming system and a hobby and a business, it comes down to this: The Rule of Cool. And people vote with their wallets.

Orks win.

 The Riddle of Steel wrote:
Let's approach this from a different angle.

Yes, Necrons have powerful fluff.

But who controls the fluff? Games Workshop.

What controls GW? Model sales => Profits.

THE ULTIMATE QUESTION:
If GW fell on hard times financially and they had to dramatically cut the amount of product the produce and support, which army is more likely to get cut and which is more likely to survive?

I believe Orks sell more models and therefore, if push comes to shove, GW would write some 40k End Times fluff that explains the demise of Necrons and justifies the survival of Orks in the new, slimmed-down 40k universe. Put another way, can you picture the 40k universe without Necros? Can you picture it without Orks?

Only GW fluff can determine who wins and, as a business, GW fluff will support the Orks if they are ever forced to choose.

Personally, I think GW writes over-powered fluff for the Necrons to make them seem scary so people will take them seriously. I also think this is why they write over-powered rules for Necrons: they need help selling models.

Orks don't need help from the rules or fluff that makes them sound unstoppable to sell models. People buy and play Orks for the simple reason that they are the most fun army to model, paint and play in a hobby that is supposed to be fun. They are a well-designed product.

The winner of Necrons vs. Orks? In a gaming system and a hobby and a business, it comes down to this: The Rule of Cool. And people vote with their wallets.

Orks win.

Thead is over, kids. There's no topping that.

I can happily imagine a 40k universe without Orks, and Necron for that matter.

So could I.

They are nice and all, but ultimately just a meme machine.

Hey, we agreed on something