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I mean, if that's your parameters of victory, then I will happily concede Ork victory?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 King Pariah wrote:


Eh, in that train of thought, the Wardcrom codex provides one incident the Orks definitely did not win as in they didn't die fighting, they didn't run away to fight another day, nor did they win a fight.

Said incident involves one ork getting too curious for his own good and pops open the containment chamber of a "gifted" Necron doomsday ark to see how it works. Breaching said containment chamber results in the entire planet and all the orks on it getting vaporized. Doesn't meet the criteria for the Ork definition of a win. So no, the orks don't always win and there are plenty of ways to deny orks a victory in any sense of the word. Just takes a little creativity.

Also, if the Orks die fleeing (being run down) or die by being blown up by artillery, does it count as dying fighting?

In a sense. They were going to a fight, or were regrouping to fighting again, so they died involving a fight, if that makes sense.

The Necrons still have their ultimate weapon...

No, they lose when they die that way, same for ambush.

Actually they lose when the other side considers it a win, kinda like everyone else.

 King Pariah wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
If you could stop using slow talk, it'd be nice.

He is just having some fun. He didn't offend anyone. If you don't like it, don't read the thread. Anyway he has a point. Technically orks do win, because orks don't ever lose, even if they all died, they'd die fighting, which is a win. So.. orks really do, in the end, regardless of any text or factual arguement from the necrons side, win.

Eh, in that train of thought, the Wardcrom codex provides one incident the Orks definitely did not win as in they didn't die fighting, they didn't run away to fight another day, nor did they win a fight.

Said incident involves one ork getting too curious for his own good and pops open the containment chamber of a "gifted" Necron doomsday ark to see how it works. Breaching said containment chamber results in the entire planet and all the orks on it getting vaporized. Doesn't meet the criteria for the Ork definition of a win. So no, the orks don't always win and there are plenty of ways to deny orks a victory in any sense of the word. Just takes a little creativity.

When it came from a warddex, it doesn't count. :/ but I see what you're saying. This has just always been the ork way, the whole we never lose thing.

Bobthehero

Do you even... Play 40k? If so, you'd know your statement is so horribly wrong. They don't "lose like any other army" they just don't lose as stated before.. wow haha

I play 40k, orks lose, simple as that.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

It does, since y'know, there's no canon in 40k, and its always up to the individual, hell I could say that in my view, orks are just a lie and don't exist.

But then again, the IG needs a punching bag, too.

 Bobthehero wrote:
It does, since y'know, there's no canon in 40k, and its always up to the individual, hell I could say that in my view, orks are just a lie and don't exist.

But then again, the IG needs a punching bag, too.

THATS what you play? I wish I could shake your hand for the countless baneblades and such you guys bring to the battlefield to help my orks waste some of their excess rokkits. Thank you. But.. you guys are the 40k punching bag.. you don't win.. any tournies.. oh, but even orks do

What do tourneys even have to do with fluff? 'Sides, I don't care for tourney at all. If you want someone to stroke your ego, you can go somewhere else.

 Bobthehero wrote:
What do tourneys even have to do with fluff? 'Sides, I don't care for tourney at all. If you want someone to stroke your ego, you can go somewhere else.

Or you can. Get back to the discussion at hand, it would obviously be a good fight. I won't deny that. My money is still on orks. Not because I don't think the necrons have the means to take on the orks, they most certainly have that and beyond, but because orks grow and adapt to what they need to handle. Get bigger and stronger, even though tabletop doesn't show the stronger part very well. Necrons are very smart, but as someone stated a few pages back, one necron for every however many orks would be enough. There are just so dang many of the buggers

If the Orks are "winning" then you just aren't trying hard enough.

A snaggletoothed old Loota, Badscragg reckoned he’d more or less seen it all. But he’d never witnessed carnage like this. The Chaos boyz weren’t just killing the Orks, they were ripping them to bits. Ork throats were torn out by jagged fangs, the gushing blood drunk down in great draughts. Lashing tentacles tore off greenskin limbs and stuffed them into gaping maws. Skin was flayed, bones broken, and Ork guts ripped out by the fistful. Zog this, thought Badscragg, beginning to sidle slowly away from the fight. Even Orks had their limits, and this surpassed his. Suddenly, the Loota was plunged into shadow, choking on the reeking stink of sulphur. Badscragg looked up in sudden horror as something truly monstrous descended upon him, and then everything turned to blood and pain.

Unrelated fluff that has no meaning. No true ork would ever of been scared. That loota should of been proud of what he saw! Its what orks live for.

Ugh, Pain4Pleasure please stop. You're making the rest of us Orks look ridiculous with your try-hard posts. As awesome as Orks are, I don't see them ever outright winning against a unified Necron front in their prime, at best its a stalemate which is exactly what an Ork wants anyways, a never-ending battle where a boy can get his mettle tested.

I rank Orks roughly upper-middle tier regarding power rankings in terms of races, but Necrons have already been established as one of the top tier guys given that they managed to even take down the C'tan in their prime (albeit through backstabbing).

 Grimskul wrote:
Ugh, Pain4Pleasure please stop. You're making the rest of us Orks look ridiculous with your try-hard posts. As awesome as Orks are, I don't see them ever outright winning against a unified Necron front in their prime, at best its a stalemate which is exactly what an Ork wants anyways, a never-ending battle where a boy can get his mettle tested.

I rank Orks roughly upper-middle tier regarding power rankings in terms of races, but Necrons have already been established as one of the top tier guys given that they managed to even take down the C'tan in their prime (albeit through backstabbing).

Then start defending orks maybe?
Don't come on here just to insult me. It's not needed.

You can be an Ork fan and still be of the opinion that this is a battle they cannot win (and vice versa).

If the story Gutrak Dethhead is any thing to go by you don't need 1000 orks per Necron.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Ugh, Pain4Pleasure please stop. You're making the rest of us Orks look ridiculous with your try-hard posts. As awesome as Orks are, I don't see them ever outright winning against a unified Necron front in their prime, at best its a stalemate which is exactly what an Ork wants anyways, a never-ending battle where a boy can get his mettle tested.

I rank Orks roughly upper-middle tier regarding power rankings in terms of races, but Necrons have already been established as one of the top tier guys given that they managed to even take down the C'tan in their prime (albeit through backstabbing).

Then start defending orks maybe?
Don't come on here just to insult me. It's not needed.

Well that's the thing, by and large everything has been placed on the table.

Necron advantages:

Inertia-less drives and Dolmen Gates (huge advantage in space)
Ability to time travel/divination via astromancy as seen through Orikan the Diviner
Ability to repair and phase out most tech which mitigates the mass salvaging/looting that Orks are typically capable of doing against enemy forces
Effectively suffers no morale issues (important to note the mental degradation of some of the Necron Overlords/Lords who awoke incomplete or damaged)
Powerful base weaponry like gauss and tesla makes them dominate on an Ork to Necron basis.

Ork advantages:

Numbers beyond counting
Psykers
Has a mobile self-sustaining ecosystem via spores which produce grots, squigs, etc. thereby requiring extensive cleansing to eliminate threat and repopulation
Get progressively stronger/bigger the longer and tougher the fight against the enemy is
As mentioned previously, their salvaging ability means even wrecked vehicles can quickly be fixed and given a new lick of paint to be thrown into action
Unorthodox methods and the sheer variety of tactics regarding the different klans
Generally tech-wise they are on the lower end of the spectrum with exceptions where certain Meks can go into eldar/necron tech level areas with super-weapons but they are rarely seen on a common basis given the Ork disposition for the biggest ladz (i.e. Flash Gitz) to hoard all the good dakka for themselves.

From a galaxy wide point of view it honestly seems pretty hard to come to an absolute consensus as the examples where they do encounter one another are often too vague to be the basis for who would ultimately win in the big mosh pit fight, especially since they are always on a pretty small scale compared to most. It's possible that against such a powerful foe like Necrons that the Orks (if united) would adapt to them after being pushed back enough with guys like Wazzdakka potentially countering their mobility by finishing his dream of an interstellar warp-highway that lets him and his speed freaks hop from planet to planet. Taking it at face value though, the Necrons have too many tech advantages for the Orks to overcome, at least initially. The Necrons wouldn't outright wipe out the Orks but the Orks would end up being contained similar to how they were during the age of the Eldar.

Query: How exactly does this Ork spore method work in relation to getting larger the more they fight?

I mean, if an Ork is killed, they can't get bigger as they've just been atomised by a gauss blast?
The spores would start as regular sized Orks, as they had done little fighting. Only survivors get bigger, and to survive, they need to win a fight or run from one. Running from a fight brings in the question of how orky this Ork is, and probably doesn't contribute to the growth. Losing a fight/dying would kill the Ork and then you are left with a dead Ork. Not a big one.

I don't know, people keep citing that Orks would keep getting bigger, but I can't see how. If they all attack the Necrons, they get slaughtered at pitched battle, either in space or charging a firing line of Necrons.
In these situations, how can the growth occur? They are either dead, and therefore dead, or fleeing, so didn't really fight. And their spores don't get bigger, as the spores didn't fight.

And that is assuming that the spores aren't atomised by gauss weapons.

It's quite simple.
Da boyz warm up for the Necrons by beating an easy opponent like Imperial Guard wotsits to deth wiv their choppas making them all uge and warty.
Once they've finished wiv all the runty squishy oomans, Then they go after the tin 'eads.
Like a galactic wide version of Headwoppas Killchoppa.

Plus they now have a load of scrap Baneblade tank gubbinz to make into proppa tank wotsits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, I forgot to add. Orks Win.

 r_squared wrote:
It's quite simple.
Da boyz warm up for the Necrons by beating an easy opponent like Imperial Guard wotsits to deth wiv their choppas making them all uge and warty.
Once they've finished wiv all the runty squishy oomans, Then they go after the tin 'eads.
Like a galactic wide version of Headwoppas Killchoppa.

Plus they now have a load of scrap Baneblade tank gubbinz to make into proppa tank wotsits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, I forgot to add. Orks Win.

Ah, but this is Orks vs Necrons. No other factions here. Otherwise a Necron supporter could state that they can MSS Space Marines to fight for them.
No giant Orks or looted BEHNBLADES here.

So, I say again, the whole growing to be huge would be a null factor here unless regular sized Orks won an engagement, and the survivors got bigger.
And the odds of surviving that engagement, particularly in space where no krumpin' can occur, are close to nil.

Still, cool conversion though!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Query: How exactly does this Ork spore method work in relation to getting larger the more they fight?

I mean, if an Ork is killed, they can't get bigger as they've just been atomised by a gauss blast?
The spores would start as regular sized Orks, as they had done little fighting. Only survivors get bigger, and to survive, they need to win a fight or run from one. Running from a fight brings in the question of how orky this Ork is, and probably doesn't contribute to the growth. Losing a fight/dying would kill the Ork and then you are left with a dead Ork. Not a big one.

I don't know, people keep citing that Orks would keep getting bigger, but I can't see how. If they all attack the Necrons, they get slaughtered at pitched battle, either in space or charging a firing line of Necrons.
In these situations, how can the growth occur? They are either dead, and therefore dead, or fleeing, so didn't really fight. And their spores don't get bigger, as the spores didn't fight.

And that is assuming that the spores aren't atomised by gauss weapons.

That's assuming that all gauss flayer/weapon hits are instant kills. Remember, while they may atomize chunks of Ork, Ork physiology is robust to the point where they can survive for a short period even with their heads removed. And given the sheer amount of Orks I doubt each Necron warrior will vaporize what's left (which continues to release spores) when there's hundreds more Orks bearing down on them. Typically, the best example of how Orks thrive in a war-rich environment is the Octarius war versus the nids. There they explicitly state how the Orks are becoming stronger with their diet of war and the nids are constantly adapting with even the Swarmlord becoming involved in the conflict. Keep in mind that the Nids are similar to the Necrons in the fact that they dispose of Ork bodies efficiently, just through consumption and their own micro-phages trying to take down the Ork spores on a microscopic level and the fact that the Orks haven't been curbstomped shows that it isn't that easy to dispose of.

Though worth keeping in mind is that the Tyranids benefit just as much from Octarius as the Orks do. More and more Orks are drawn there (more free biomass!) and the constant war makes it an evolutionary sandbox for the Tyranids to fieldtest and improve their DNA.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Ugh, Pain4Pleasure please stop. You're making the rest of us Orks look ridiculous with your try-hard posts. As awesome as Orks are, I don't see them ever outright winning against a unified Necron front in their prime, at best its a stalemate which is exactly what an Ork wants anyways, a never-ending battle where a boy can get his mettle tested.

I rank Orks roughly upper-middle tier regarding power rankings in terms of races, but Necrons have already been established as one of the top tier guys given that they managed to even take down the C'tan in their prime (albeit through backstabbing).

Then start defending orks maybe?
Don't come on here just to insult me. It's not needed.

Are you so incredibly insecure in your arguments and idea's that you have literally no means to come up with an effective argument of your own except for "Trollop okras win cause i say so" you are the very literal definition of a troll. Your posts are so inane and nonsensical I don't even know why you bother writing them, you come across as nothing less than an donkey-cave, if you want to actually think up things and argue effectively then by all means do so, but just to come and ridicule people makes you look like a dick.

I'd like to say its a tie. The C'tan vs Gork and Mork is where I think it all comes down to.

I was hoping this thread might actually contain some intelligent discussion. I got trolled hard. Kudos to those of you who actually posted something useful instead of yelling and fanboying all over the place.

I'm also reminded of just how bad the Necron fluff actually is. All this "blow up all the stars" and "snuff out the warp" stuff is just nonsense. They have no weakness. At least the old codex implied that the cutting off the warp project was a work in process, that actually posed quite a challenge for the C'Tan.

Unfortunately there really aren't enough examples of these races fighting. When Necrons show up in the novels, they are usually quite a lot weaker than the codex makes them out to be. Still terrifying mind you, but not unbeatable.

I like to imagine Orks could at least hold out. Older fluff mentioned that they can survive even on asteroids and wrecked ships, so blowing up all the stars wouldn't actually kill them all. And they can even survive in the warp, one place Necrons and C'Tan have no dominion over. Much as I liked the old Necron fluff, I never really thought of them as invincible. Sure, they are masters of reality. But what happens when the Warp meets reality? Warp wins. So I always thought of warp based races having a chance.

Also, Orks are often shown to be extremely adaptable. We really don't know just how far they could go after prolonged contact with Necrons. There's nothing to suggest Orks could loot Necron tech and use it themselves.

 Delicate Swarm wrote:


I'm also reminded of just how bad the Necron fluff actually is. All this "blow up all the stars" and "snuff out the warp" stuff is just nonsense. They have no weakness. At least the old codex implied that the cutting off the warp project was a work in process, that actually posed quite a challenge for the C'Tan.

The newcron dex for 5th was the begging of the end for me. So much fanboyism in its pages it was sickening. Just another running theme of GWs favorite plot devise of we can do anything but for some unfathomable reason we just choose not too.

Its too bad, I rather liked the Necrons as the mindless war machine that time forgot... but was slowly coming back.

I don't think this poll has any value to the forum if you take the view that Orks always win even if they lose.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Delicate Swarm wrote:


I'm also reminded of just how bad the Necron fluff actually is. All this "blow up all the stars" and "snuff out the warp" stuff is just nonsense. They have no weakness. At least the old codex implied that the cutting off the warp project was a work in process, that actually posed quite a challenge for the C'Tan.

The newcron dex for 5th was the begging of the end for me. So much fanboyism in its pages it was sickening. Just another running theme of GWs favorite plot devise of we can do anything but for some unfathomable reason we just choose not too.

Its too bad, I rather liked the Necrons as the mindless war machine that time forgot... but was slowly coming back.

But the only real difference is that the 'slowly coming back' turned into 'got here'...

Guys, this was never going to be an intelligent debate. Consider the subject matter. Two completely imaginary races, with conflicting and nonsensical fluff which has been revised and ret-conned to absurdity. Even pretending that it would be possible to have a rational, intelligent debate is in itself absurd.

Still, it was good fun though.