Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Nuanced... you went from ''orks are best!!1'' to ''SM are bestest!!!!1111''

As a CSM player, I can safely say that there are 3 factions who have a realistic hope of final victory: Necrons, Tyranids and Daemons.

Everyone else lacks the resilience, unity and/or sheer power necessary.

 ProwlerPC wrote:

Animus wrote:
The Necrons did defeat them, they just didn't exterminate them.
The Orks were irrelevant by the end of the war, it was the Eldar the Necrons retreated from.

Roflcopter XD You made that up. The fluff doesn't detail any meeting between Necrons and Krorks. Old Ones didn't create Krorks to combat Necrons that was the Eldar and some other races the Krork race was created to combat the Warp entities. Necrons didn't retreat from Eldar they retreated from a galaxy being overrun by an Enslaver Plague. It wasn't necessary to retreat because Orks and Eldar and some other races that existed during the Plague still survive to this day and the Enslaver Plague has ended many many many eras ago. I do find this retreat rather interesting if they have the ability to throw stars at their problems or even today why aren't they throwing stars at the Imperium. I'm betting the star tossing is much more conditional then fans want others to believe. Conditions like the machine is broken, the machine is lost, no one knows how to use the machine, the machine hasn't been built yet, only C'tan can do it etc...whatever the reason the start tossing hasn't been put to use despite millions of yrs fill with good reasons to do it. The Orks were relevent back then and are still relevent today. Their race with their united belief has a manifestation in the Warp in the form of Gork and Mork. Both are insanely powerful due to this united belief and shrug off the attacks of other Chaos Gods with a raucus laugh and happily continue going about their business of smashing and wrecking Warp entities since that what the race was designed for. As long as there is the Warp and Warp entities the Orks are relevent to the universe. But this relevence seems to be changing. Current date is the first time fluff details Gork and Mork having any interest in Real Space and they are currently puppeteering Ghazzy to raise the galactic Waaaagh! energy so they can rip out of the Warp into real space. My speculation here is that this is due to the incoming Tyranids. The Orks and their manifested belief still seem to be programmed to save the galaxy albeit saving the galaxy isn't the same as saving the current races living in it.

Pretty much everything in the first half of your post is contradictory to what I've read in official fluff, unofficial forums, and the wiki/lex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
10 pages and noones mentioned a Looted C'tan shard yet?

While Necrons fluff is filled with techno cheese, remember Orks have the slapstick advantage!

The Orks can make the Universe explode, and be excited to do so.

A looted C'tan shard would lead to a an Ork Waagh getting anally raped because they failed to properly contain it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

morganfreeman wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
No amount of praying and rituals and whatever human invented superstitious dogma will work on the Ork weapons. Maybe that's what the IoM are doing wrong. They are praying to the stuff and reporting back that they don't work. It's got less to do with Ork ignorance and more to do with religious ignorance perhaps.

Adeptus Mechanicus prayers are not out of religious ignorance. It's so the lasgun won't fail in the middle of the next battle out of spite.

But the entire reason the machine spirit is there is out of religious dogma and a lack of understanding / refusal to understand.

Also, a lot of the prayers for the weapons and such are just directions in "religious" format, in order to keep the knowledge alive through the long dark.

So, which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Either AdMech dogma is a load of superstitious doggerel and machines fail because of a lack of understanding, or AdMech dogma is a set of instructions for proper maintenance and care of machinery.

The truth is that the belief in the "machine spirit's anger" is a direct result of not following the rituals properly, which is the same thing as not maintaining the device properly. No rituals = poor maintenance = machines fail.

Also, don't forget that bit of fluff that states that even a simple scalpel has a reflection in the Warp. Machine Spirits exist. Even if they are the product of human belief.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Haruspex wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

I played Orks when I was a kid, I may have voted for them like above back then. Now, with a more nuanced view of the setting, I really can't do so.

By all means, explain how your "nuanced" view causes you to reach your conclusions. I know you have something meaningful to say here and you aren't just making a "I'm a smarter and more mature gamer than you ohohoho!" post. So go ahead. Fix your post and turn it into something that makes sense. We don't care about how you just turned fourteen and are trying on your big boy pants for the first time. Go ahead and explain how playing with Ork toy soldiers in a little kids' game makes you less mature than a person who plays with elf toy soldiers or bug toy soldiers or hypermasculine steroid freak toy soldiers.

There are eleven pages in which he was arguing his point, if you don't have the patience or maturity to read them, then too bad, don't ask him to regurgitate all that gak in one post.

It would go on forever.
Because the Ork territory cannot be conquered. At all.
And Orks lack the space ships and knowledge to reach everywhere that Necron are.

If Orks ever did, the milky way would probably be divided between Orks and Tyranids anway with the rest of the races just hiding in corners.

In regard to the Ork territory. There are just too many planets, too many Orks and no spaceship can get far into the territory without being tellyported onto and destroyed or taken over (or both ;-)

The Necron had many worlds and they enslaved meny civilisations, but still those combined are not even close to the number of Orks.
And their technology is impressive, yes, but that means nothing in this comparison.
And Necron have both limited numbers and, even more important, limited expension capacity, because Necron do not breed or multiply, they repair what can be repaired.
Orks literally grow as fungus everywhere they are and if a planet gets visited by even a small Ork force, they are close to impossible to eradicate without destroying the planet, which usually is an even worse option (there are even still Orks on Armageddon for this reason).

Orks were genetically designed to also know enough about space travel and technology by a race superior to Necron and Orks conquered them and are beaten but unconquered since then.

ORicK wrote:
It would go on forever.
Because the Ork territory cannot be conquered. At all.
And Orks lack the space ships and knowledge to reach everywhere that Necron are.

If Orks ever did, the milky way would probably be divided between Orks and Tyranids anway with the rest of the races just hiding in corners.

In regard to the Ork territory. There are just too many planets, too many Orks and no spaceship can get far into the territory without being tellyported onto and destroyed or taken over (or both ;-)

The Necron had many worlds and they enslaved meny civilisations, but still those combined are not even close to the number of Orks.
And their technology is impressive, yes, but that means nothing in this comparison.

Orks were genetically designed to also know enough about space travel and technology by a race superior to Necron and Orks conquered them and are beaten but unconquered since then.

1.) No, Orks can reach everywhere the Necrons can, they both have access to dimensions of the Warp for travel.
2.) The Orks can be exterminated via flame, and, the Necron Guass weapons deconstruct the molecules themselves, without atoms or molecules there is not acid, therefore there is no deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA, which is what composes the Orks' genetic memory, and what allows them to replicate).

 Ashiraya wrote:
As a CSM player, I can safely say that there are 3 factions who have a realistic hope of final victory: Necrons, Tyranids and Daemons.

Everyone else lacks the resilience, unity and/or sheer power necessary.

How do the Daemons make it onto that list? The other two candidates are insufficient conduits for the daemons. If all but those three factions snuff it the daemons are straight out of luck.

 Scrabb wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
As a CSM player, I can safely say that there are 3 factions who have a realistic hope of final victory: Necrons, Tyranids and Daemons.

Everyone else lacks the resilience, unity and/or sheer power necessary.

How do the Daemons make it onto that list? The other two candidates are insufficient conduits for the daemons. If all but those three factions snuff it the daemons are straight out of luck.

He was listing factions that have a possibility of winning against everybody else, not who wins if everybody else disapears.

@dusara217

Orks do not have the level of warp travel that other races have. They have space travel, but they lack control.
If they would get this level of control and it is stated in all books since 1st edition (which i all have ;-) that this would be the biggest threat to humanity.
Now Orks are stuck with tellyporting on other ships and their own, quite simple, spaceships. In BFG the Ork ships are slow and low-tech, their primary function is reaching other ships or planets to invade..

I already edited my previous post.
But if you flame/deconstruct an Ork using Necron flayers, they would eradicate that Ork indeed, but a few spores that have fallen off the ork can already lead to new Orks in the future. Deconstructing and cleansing the entire area is the only option, eradicating the planet the worse case scenario. But even planetary bombardment did not help on Armageddon, where Orks are under control, but not eradicated.

We have plenty of cases of Orks being eradicated from a planet before (Valhalla leaps to mind). The difficulty of doing so has been exaggerated.

If every Ork invasion had been permanent, they would have conquered the galaxy by now.

Yes, that is true, it is possible.
But eradication needed quite extreme measures.

My main point is that just shooting the Orks in combat is not quite enough. And the cases that are described, describe Ork invasions of other regions and planets, not Orks attacked on their "turf".

To destroy Orks as a whole, Necron need to actually move into Ork territory and nobody ever returned from visiting anything other than the outer rims of that territory.

Orks have almost no coherent territory because their space travel is so haphazard.

Instead, they are spread in little pockets over the entire galaxy.

There are big swathes of the galaxy where the concentration is higher or lower, though.

Yes there are plenty of examples of planets being eradicated along with the entire Ork population on it. Myself I've never said it was difficult to wipe em out on a planet or even across many planets. The fluff also has the Ork reappearing on planets hit by exterminatus as well as found flourishing on completely dead planets that the Imperium expected no life to take hold. After blowing up a planet how are the Necron going to keep it from getting reseeded with spores from more Orks coming. The galaxy is saturated with Orks, you can't just destroy the planet and then move on. Imperium has made this mistake only to discover after that the exterminated planet is repopulated. They don't need living planets to reseed it. It can be a barren dead rock and in mere 10 yrs it can 'terraformed' by Orkoid fungus with all the orkoid sub species growing from the ground. Necrons will need to guard each planet they decided to exterminate so that the Orks don't come back. It's easy to wipe out a planet of Orks, it's hard to keep the planet that way.

It's also a silly notion to try and convince people Orks can't travel through space. Orks own the largest amount of systems in the Milky Way. They didn't walk from system to system. Like all races except the humans, they lack the astronomicon, but they don't lack beacons to home in on. They follow the closest Waaaaaagh! ping. Granted the first step into the frontier by a newly formed Waaaagh! is done blindly but once that Waaaaagh! reaches a destination where it finds a fight, the rest of the Ork in a thousand light yrs or so radii will have no trouble reaching where the fight is knwing exactly where to find it.

Oh and also cute argument that the majority of the votes must be 'because Orks are Orks'. Real cute. Got that from just one single post in the thread eh? One of the best blatant extrapolations I've seen in awhile. I want to run with that for a bit. Let's see how this can go. If some 10 people posted about spores would it then mean 10x the majority of votes is due to spores? If also in the same thread 9 people posted that Orks innately can loot Necron supa tech and figure out how it works and add Necron tek to their already bewildering repertoire would it then mean that 9x the majority of votes is because of this point. I'll keep things conservative and stop the thought experiment there using your logic and lets sum up these conservative results. 1xmajority of votes + 10xmajority of votes + 9xmajority of votes = 20x the majority of votes. Wow Orks should have more votes then what is showing. I was being conservative. There are many more posts about Orks spores, Ork innate tek skills, galactic saturation of Orks, Ork gestalt psyky changing reality with numbers on such a grand scale, the unleashing of Gork and Mork etc...which would bring the number of votes to astronimical levels under your logic. Meanwhile still just the one post about "Orks cuz it's Orks" that you used so deftly for your logic.

edit add: paragraphs ended at the edge making it look like a block, added lines inbetween

It's also a silly notion to try and convince people Orks can't travel through space.

This argument has not been made.

Oh and also cute argument that the majority of the votes must be 'because Orks are Orks'.

I think you'll find that this claim, too, has not been made.

People keep trying to return to the fact that the Orks cannot win because they're spread out/unorganised/lack unity/etc... we're 12 pages in but that's no excuse to not read the OP.

 Anfauglir wrote:
People keep trying to return to the fact that the Orks cannot win because they're spread out/unorganised/lack unity/etc... we're 12 pages in but that's no excuse to not read the OP.

Not sure who you are talking about.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:
People keep trying to return to the fact that the Orks cannot win because they're spread out/unorganised/lack unity/etc... we're 12 pages in but that's no excuse to not read the OP.

Not sure who you are talking about.

Beat me to the punch

 Ashiraya wrote:
As a CSM player, I can safely say that there are 3 factions who have a realistic hope of final victory: Necrons, Tyranids and Daemons.

Everyone else lacks the resilience, unity and/or sheer power necessary.

Agreed!

I honestly believe that Orks would win.

Yes, but your 'hat' is 'madness', Harley. :p

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yes, but your 'hat' is 'madness', Harley. :p

I'm completely sane.....


...I think.
Hahaha.

In the end I think that either the Necron's would win all out, or if they did happen to begin to fail then they would activate the Ostery and destroy the rest of the galaxy in a last middle finger to everyone else kind of thing

 Harley Quinn wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yes, but your 'hat' is 'madness', Harley. :p

I'm completely sane.....


...I think.
Hahaha.

Well, in the comics you're sane. Not so much in the movies/video game

 dusara217 wrote:

 Harley Quinn wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yes, but your 'hat' is 'madness', Harley. :p

I'm completely sane.....


...I think.
Hahaha.

Well, in the comics you're sane. Not so much in the movies/video game

Either way, Mista J and Harley are some of my favourite villains to date.

If only because when they break up, Harley gets together with Poison Ivy...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
If only because when they break up, Harley gets together with Poison Ivy...

Oh, no, I meant date as in time, not date as in relationship. Haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But I get you.

I've created a monster... I love it.


So.folks, as it stands

IoM-1
Orks-1

Nids-0
Nexrons- 0

Who should battle next?/ you decide!

Orks V IoM