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Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Probably because this has become the new norm for the game and people are just giving up on caring anymore.

This for me.

Between the absurd increase in power levels and absurd shennanigans possible, and the rapid drop in players showing up for game night culminating in several weeks of nobody showing up locally, it's increasingly hard to bother anymore. I'm going to pass on a local tournament for the first time in ages because it just doesn't look to be fun anymore.

2+ rerollable jinks saves are absolutely ridiculous. They're also just another symptom of the problem that's been going on for 6 months now.

 Desubot wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
what makes the Black Knights damn good for assault is that they charge, you get no Overwatch if they start near the darkshroud (plus they gain 3" to charge range with Sammael warlord trait), and do their damage. They can then hit and run that turn because with a rerollable 2+ cover save, they don't care much about your shooting (unless loaded with ignores cover). If you assault them, the Land Speeder support squadron just rapes you. next turn, rinse and repeat.

Hang on whats the relevant formation rules here?

Why no Over watch and LS support fire?

a darkshroud stops overwatch fire if a Ravenwing sqdn began the assault phase within 6" of it (you want to be within 6" to get the increased rerollable jink save). The ravenwing Support Squadron formation has 3 landspeeders and a darkshroud. It grants Interceptor, grim resolve, and strafing run. It also can fire overwatch if any ravenwing unit with 24" is assaulted. Granted, it hits on 5+, but still, with HBs, assault cannons and/or typhoon rockets, that's gold.

 bullyboy wrote:
what makes the Black Knights damn good for assault is that they charge, you get no Overwatch if they start near the darkshroud (plus they gain 3" to charge range with Sammael warlord trait), and do their damage. They can then hit and run that turn because with a rerollable 2+ cover save, they don't care much about your shooting (unless loaded with ignores cover). If you assault them, the Land Speeder support squadron just rapes you. next turn, rinse and repeat.

from 24" away.

CC attacks doesn't care about Cover saves...

Also; Heldrakes...

Simple: the Internet doesn't care about Dark Angels. After Necrons, Eldar, Skitarii, and Space Marines, the Internet has exhausted all of its outrage.

There has been a lot of complaining about broken Eldar units and various other "OP" formations. Here's the thing: while there are Eldar units that are definitely OP, a lot of these new formations are paper tigers. They look broken on paper, but on the tabletop in the right context they are beatable.

There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
but on the tabletop in the right context they are beatable.

So List tailored?

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
CC attacks doesn't care about Cover saves...

Also; Heldrakes...

 TheNewBlood wrote:

There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.

I think that last point is strangely true. It seems like a lot of people know the Imperium to be 'good guys' and are okay with buffs. When Nid flying circus was all the rage it was hated on, CSM were OP for a short while before Helldrake nerfs and Tau used to wreck house. When all of these strats were viable they were bashed heavily.

I can't recall (maybe somebody can help me out) any recent times when the more powerful Imperial units were TFG-able.

Hel Drakes are back in a big way baby!! hahaha too bad no turret..

 clamclaw wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.

I think that last point is strangely true. It seems like a lot of people know the Imperium to be 'good guys' and are okay with buffs. When Nid flying circus was all the rage it was hated on, CSM were OP for a short while before Helldrake nerfs and Tau used to wreck house. When all of these strats were viable they were bashed heavily.

I can't recall (maybe somebody can help me out) any recent times when the more powerful Imperial units were TFG-able.

That crazy superfriends 4 codex wolf unit was kinda cheesy as feth.

But the TFG able part really depends on who you ask.

Tourny players wont consider 3 rips as bad as a casual player.

I play nids. My plan is to start with biovore barrages to try and take out the darkshroud since barrage ignores cover. Failing that, use bubble wrap to let them charge into weak units and then let hormagaunts eat them up with massive numbers of attacks in melee.

A 2+ rerollable save is retardo. It should never exist in the game. But, if it's going to exist I would rather it be cover then anything else. Cover can be negated just by entering assault.

Lance845 wrote:
I play nids. My plan is to start with biovore barrages to try and take out the darkshroud since barrage ignores cover. Failing that, use bubble wrap to let them charge into weak units and then let hormagaunts eat them up with massive numbers of attacks in melee.

A 2+ rerollable save is slowed. It should never exist in the game. But, if it's going to exist I would rather it be cover then anything else. Cover can be negated just by entering assault.

No a 2+ rerollable INVUL should never exist.

I think cover and armor is fine since its both still counter able without swinging out the D

... is it just me?
The thing that makes this so scary is the Darkshroud.
That is an AV10 Skimmer. With 3 HP.
Take this thing down and suddenly the rerollable 2+ turns into a 3+ on a 40pts model and all the other benefits are gone. Yes, 3+ is still strong, but you have 1/6 of the firepower directed your way.
If your list cannot deal with a Skimmer that can be boltered to death, and it WILL be in bolter range for it to be useful, I question your list and tactical decisions

At this point I'm just used to my regular foot-based Tyranid list suffering this kind of stuff.

 Yarium wrote:
At this point I'm just used to my regular foot-based Tyranid list suffering this kind of stuff.

Indian burns? edit: BOOO you removed the gif.

Id be ecstatic there army is coming to you instead of you having to go to them

Once GW started releasing codices on seemingly a weekly basis, I stopped caring, and in fact it made me interested in Horus Heresy, because I don't really have to worry about codex churn with that system.

I'll worry about any of the new 40k stuff when I actually see it fielded against me on a table.

 jasper76 wrote:
I'll worry about any of the new 40k stuff when I actually see it fielded against me on a table.

I'm basically at this point as well. Though, maybe all this op stuff will allow me to run knights again, and I will introduce the ravenwing to my Knight Acheron.

Dark Angels players should be happy, your codex is finally good and relevant and you guys should enjoy being able to have a fun, fluffy, competitive army.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.

So much this... Loyalist players are the worst for having massive double standards.
Yes, the Daemonic re-rollable 2++ invuln save is beyond broken and dumb for example, yet Imperials can go pull the exact same thing in combat, (add an IG Priest + Santic powers to a Storm shield unit), and the only thing you'll ever hear is how "tactical" they're being and that Xenos players simply need to L2P to beat it.

Hell, all the best Deathstars in the game are IoM only, yet the only things that tend to get singled out as being OP/broken are things like Be'lakor throwing Invis on an Insensate Rage Bloodthirster!
(seriously, outside of my own 'uber filth, how the feth are Daemons supposed to deal with Knight Titans/Tiggy + Friends Centstar?!)


I'd be willing to bet good money that Tau or Tyranids or Chaos could get a nerfed codex, and Imperial players would still moan & whine endlessly about whatever single gimmick would be left to pull with those armies.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.

So much this... Loyalist players are the worst for having massive double standards.
Yes, the Daemonic re-rollable 2++ invuln save is beyond broken and dumb for example, yet Imperials can go pull the exact same thing in combat, (add an IG Priest + Santic powers to a Storm shield unit), and the only thing you'll ever hear is how "tactical" they're being and that Xenos players simply need to L2P to beat it.

Hell, all the best Deathstars in the game are IoM only, yet the only things that tend to get singled out as being OP/broken are things like Be'lakor throwing Invis on an Insensate Rage Bloodthirster!
(seriously, outside of my own 'uber filth, how the feth are Daemons supposed to deal with Knight Titans/Tiggy + Friends Centstar?!)


I'd be willing to bet good money that Tau or Tyranids or Chaos could get a nerfed codex, and Imperial players would still moan & whine endlessly about whatever single gimmick would be left to pull with those armies.

Who even plays the 2++ priest hammer
Iv never once seen it. played on a tourny level.

 Desubot wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.

So much this... Loyalist players are the worst for having massive double standards.
Yes, the Daemonic re-rollable 2++ invuln save is beyond broken and dumb for example, yet Imperials can go pull the exact same thing in combat, (add an IG Priest + Santic powers to a Storm shield unit), and the only thing you'll ever hear is how "tactical" they're being and that Xenos players simply need to L2P to beat it.

Hell, all the best Deathstars in the game are IoM only, yet the only things that tend to get singled out as being OP/broken are things like Be'lakor throwing Invis on an Insensate Rage Bloodthirster!
(seriously, outside of my own 'uber filth, how the feth are Daemons supposed to deal with Knight Titans/Tiggy + Friends Centstar?!)


I'd be willing to bet good money that Tau or Tyranids or Chaos could get a nerfed codex, and Imperial players would still moan & whine endlessly about whatever single gimmick would be left to pull with those armies.

Who even plays the 2++ priest hammer
Iv never once seen it. played on a tourny level.

No one does as the IoM has more potent cheese than that

SGTPozy wrote:


No one does as the IoM has more potent cheese than that

Apparently its enough to be noteworthy.
Let me see what is the current IoM cheese.

Bikescar spam,
Tiggy Star with Draigo,
Only things that come to mind atm.

list me some other ones that are actually played, (id actually like to know what is considered da big cheese nowadays)

 Thairne wrote:
... is it just me?
The thing that makes this so scary is the Darkshroud.
That is an AV10 Skimmer. With 3 HP.
Take this thing down and suddenly the rerollable 2+ turns into a 3+ on a 40pts model and all the other benefits are gone. Yes, 3+ is still strong, but you have 1/6 of the firepower directed your way.
If your list cannot deal with a Skimmer that can be boltered to death, and it WILL be in bolter range for it to be useful, I question your list and tactical decisions

I have yet to see an actual copy of the rules so please correct me if I am wrong about anything.

It would take roughly 18 hits to glance an AV 10 vehicle to death with bolters if they did not have any kind of save.

However the Darkshroud has a 2+ rerollable jink save, boosting it to requiring 648 hits to glance it to death.

If you play SM, that means it would require 972 shots at BS 4 to down one skimmer.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.

The new Tau codex (buffed or nerfed) will be the biggest gak storm of hate ever.

 Desubot wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:


No one does as the IoM has more potent cheese than that

Apparently its enough to be noteworthy.
Let me see what is the current IoM cheese.

Bikescar spam,
Tiggy Star with Draigo,
Only things that come to mind atm.

list me some other ones that are actually played, (id actually like to know what is considered da big cheese nowadays)

You're about 2 years behind there...
Try anything + Allied Drop Pods. Most of the new Space Marine formations are extremely powerful, but we haven't had a chance to try those much yet.

 Thairne wrote:
... is it just me?
The thing that makes this so scary is the Darkshroud.
That is an AV10 Skimmer. With 3 HP.
Take this thing down and suddenly the rerollable 2+ turns into a 3+ on a 40pts model and all the other benefits are gone. Yes, 3+ is still strong, but you have 1/6 of the firepower directed your way.
If your list cannot deal with a Skimmer that can be boltered to death, and it WILL be in bolter range for it to be useful, I question your list and tactical decisions

want to calculate how many bolter shots it will take to down an AV10 vehicle with 3 HP and rerollable 2+ save? yes, the darkshroud has it too.

it's around 400 bolter shots, jsyk

all these hundreds of bolter shots are reminding me of the lost Standard of Devastation
RIP Sacred Standards 2013-2015

I mean it seems pretty clear that all IoM releases are fairly biased, as the majority of players play IoM armies and they are the "good" guys. It also helps that any OP/good stuff released with an IoM army is usable by all IoM armies. So worst case the majority of players can just ally and use anything great that is in the IoM since there is 0 ally tax for having as many allies as there are non-IoM armies.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.

So much this... Loyalist players are the worst for having massive double standards.
Yes, the Daemonic re-rollable 2++ invuln save is beyond broken and dumb for example, yet Imperials can go pull the exact same thing in combat, (add an IG Priest + Santic powers to a Storm shield unit), and the only thing you'll ever hear is how "tactical" they're being and that Xenos players simply need to L2P to beat it.

Hell, all the best Deathstars in the game are IoM only, yet the only things that tend to get singled out as being OP/broken are things like Be'lakor throwing Invis on an Insensate Rage Bloodthirster!
(seriously, outside of my own 'uber filth, how the feth are Daemons supposed to deal with Knight Titans/Tiggy + Friends Centstar?!)


I'd be willing to bet good money that Tau or Tyranids or Chaos could get a nerfed codex, and Imperial players would still moan & whine endlessly about whatever single gimmick would be left to pull with those armies.

This attitude really winds me up. It is as if you people just ignore all the outrage that IS being directed at the new SMs and Skittari. And then a thread pops up AS SOON as the new DA rules are leaked asking why nobody is outraged by it. Guess why? BECAUSE THEY HAVE ONLY JUST BEEN LEAKED AND YOU WERE ONE OF THE FIRST TO SEE THEM! Nobody has seen them yet to actually be annoyed.

There is no great IoM conspiracy. The Eldar dex was absolutely and utterly broken. That is just plain to see.
As is the new SMs, skittari in pods, etc. And ALL have been complained about.

And before you label me an IoM player - 3/4 of my armies are non-IoM.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Consider this: Every single Imperial army now has access to a 2+ rerollable cover save IC for the low cost of 350 points. ( Sammael + Min Ravenwing Squadron + Darkshroud ).
He's the return of Baron Sathonyx for 7th, granting your deathstar hit and run, with the added bonus of EW and a rerollable 2+ save which isn't dependent on Fortune.

...

Where's the outrage? The torches, the pitchforks, the angry mob? This kills the metagame. The metagame has now been fundamentally changed to Armies Which Can Ignore Cover Effectively and Everyone Buggered By Ravenwing. (Not that Ravenwing players are that common, but soon... the bandwagoning will begin. All the competitive tournament Marine players already have bikes...)

Chaos will deal with them the same way they have always dealt with Deathwing. Noise Marines. 2+ rerollable cover saves don't stand up to huge numbers of shots that ignore cover.

I know there are not many NM armies on the tournament scene, and you are not really concerned about casual gaming. But outrage doesn't come out over potential tournament outcomes so much as broken rules.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
This would be mitigated if they were primarily a shooting army, bu they also now have the tools to create a nigh-unbeatable close combat unit (Conclave Bikers + Black Knight Command + Iron Hands Chapter Masters) with a 5" minimum charge distance. They are also now a tier-one alpha plus assault army. In fact, they are possibly the best assault army in the game. ( Darkshroud + x number of Black Knights = 2+ re-rollable cover save, 24" moving, 4 str 5 rending attacks + HoW, -1 ws/ initiative , HnR, BS2 Twin-Linked overwatching...) Black Knight deathstars will be the Centstars of 7th edition.

See, the upside to all this could be that we are seeing GW make assault and close combat armies useful again. As a Chaos player, I would love to see this be the template for assault based armies. If Maulerfiends or Biker squads had a minimum 5 in charge range they would be major threats on the battlefield. For that matter, give Berzerkers an extra charge dice and see if they don't get more play.

To be honest, it doesn't surprise me the lengths to which GW will go to up the rules to sell more models. The latest Eldar release sealed the deal for me. Anything I had to say would be dishonest.