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2016/03/26 02:58:05
Subject: Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
Just saw it. Hated Watchmen, was disinterested in 300, felt MoS was meh. Basically...I think Snyder is a crap director.
Freaking loved this movie. Was Lex a bit off? Yeah. But I enjoyed everything else about it. Set my expectations low because of the reviews and my bias against Snyder, and I was blown away.
Ben Affleck IS Batman. Hands down.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
2016/03/26 05:01:13
Subject: Re:Batman vs Superman page 12 final trailer
...were you surprised they 'killed' Clark? Seems obvious for a Doomsday story, but I never expected it to go there. What I thought was interesting was how they used that - and also the sequence with him eating the nuke - to redeem the character for some of the things some didn't like about MoS.
Spoiler:
While obvious in hindsight I didn't really think they were going there since there was so much made of how this was basically a set up for a JLA movie. Honestly I would have probably been happier if they left him that way (at least for awhile) so that it doesn't undercut his sacrifice so much.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2016/03/26 15:31:54
Subject: Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
timetowaste85 wrote: Just saw it. Hated Watchmen, was disinterested in 300, felt MoS was meh. Basically...I think Snyder is a crap director.
Freaking loved this movie. Was Lex a bit off? Yeah. But I enjoyed everything else about it. Set my expectations low because of the reviews and my bias against Snyder, and I was blown away.
Ben Affleck IS Batman. Hands down.
Batflleck is the best part of this movie, but the superman part was awful.
Batman's Fightscenes were amazing, and Supermans were awful CGI messes.
I am going to do Warner Brothers a favor, this movie could have easily been 3 separate movies. They squandered and opportunity to build a coherent universe for a rushed mess.
Spoiler:
Spring 2016: Batfleck which Batman returns to Gotham after being dead for a long time from the Nolandverse. The existance of superman forces his hand. When he returns, he finds Wayne manor destroyed aand John blake no where to be seen. It seems a new 'Batman'has been doing stuff in his absense. The Leauge of Shadows has been cloning Bruce Wayne.
This can have Batman vs Batwing and the introduction of Damien Wayne. Full-on Batman baatfleck movie with the same action effects used in BvS.
Fall 2016: Suicide Squad. Perfect movie. Leave the origins of this joker a mystery but follow the return of the joker story arcs where JaredLeto is John Blake, corrupted and driven mad by the Heath ledger joker.
Winter 2017: Superman - Take basically everything from BvS about government issues and Lex Luther and make a self contained movie with no batman. Luthor gets control of the alien ship (Which is basically braniac) and takes that wounded dude and does alll his gak to frame batman. Luthor stays 'legal' so braaindead sups can't put him in jail. First Villian is Metallo. Disabled dude survive the explosion and is rebuilt with a robot body by krypton tech and heart of kyrptonite. Battle ensues, Metallo at the bottom of the ocean or some crap. Movie ends with Lex being 'Meh, I have broken no law, you have no proof' and superman doing the 'i am waatching you.' thing.
Summer 2017: Stand Alone Wonder woman movie. Maybe even her 1918 retro movie which sets her up having a reason to 'watch' mankind until present.
Winter 2017: Batfleck 2: Real BvS. Jared Leto joker decides to enuse chaos by plotting bat vs superman using basically Lex's poorly thought out plan from this movie. Joker would kidnap a mom to force them to fight. He would punk Lex luthor to steal his kryptonite. Make it a Joker plot which is foiled in the end and Bat and Supes go their separate ways. Luthor is mad as gak.
Spring 2018: Make a nother isolated movie, Cyborg and the mothercube I guess. That is the most darkseid-related.
Fall 2018: Superman 2: Braniac. Luthor is mad, and attemps to ressurect Zod (not make a lame clone) with mind control stuff so it obeys him (opposed to murdering him immediatly). Bizzaro is born. Luthor uses Bizarro to stage crimes to frame superman. Fight ensues, Nuke scene happens, Bizarro turns ugly and broken. During this Luthor is freaking out and Braniac activated shortly when zod was revived as bizarro. Braniac begins doing his own crazy gak. Cyborg is introduced as his motherbox is the only thing combating braniac's world-wide control. Teamup, braniac defeated. Boomtube opens, Apokalips exposed.
Winter 2019: Suicide Squad 2: Luthor is defeated, lost his empire and hates superman. Amanda Wallace declares war on Superman on behalf of the US government. A crapton of villains attempt to assassinaate Superman and Hijinks ensue.
Summer 2019: Flash Movie: Flash is living a fun happy life as a hero in his city. Everyone loves him, He beats up on Bommerange aand cold and other fun stuff. But he time travels to the future for macguffen reason and sees 'justice lords' and apocalypse. Full on lobotomy Superman, Old man bruce wayne, Evil everyone. Flash helps batman bring sense to justice lord superman but it is too late. He watches everyone get killed by darksied and flaash goes back to regular time and hunts down batman.
Winter 2019: Justice League: Combine Supes, bat, Cyborg, Flash, Wonderwoman and BAM, you got a movie franchise with Darkseid and apokalypse being the major antagonist.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
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MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2016/03/26 16:06:39
Subject: Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
Of course Superman fighting was mostly CGI. Batman is, for the most part, just a guy with some gear while Superman is flying to the stratosphere or shooting heat beams from his eyes. One you can get away with doing practical effects and stunts while the other? Not so much. I had no issues with that honestly.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2016/03/26 20:03:16
Subject: Re:Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
WW did not actually interact with the plot in any meaningful way or help move it along. Her existence didn't help unveil anything.
And all she really did was show up to be pointlessly invincible and castrate batman. Know what would have been better than "Is she with you?"
Spoiler:
"I'll handle this... This was my plan B"
And then Batman in all his human-ness uses his forward thinking to hold Doomsday down while Superman goes to save Lois.
Hell, They could have even ripped off the avengers and had the Bat Mech show up and just pummeled the crap out of Doomsday. Anything would have been better than Batman sitting on the sidelines with his GUN.
This Wonder Woman would have made so much more sense if she had a stand alone film pre-movie and had a legitimate reason to actually be sniffing around those two... (who are awful at concealing their identities.)
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2016/03/27 00:28:58
Subject: Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
I am going to do Warner Brothers a favor, this movie could have easily been 3 separate movies. They squandered and opportunity to build a coherent universe for a rushed mess.
Spoiler:
Spring 2016: Batfleck which Batman returns to Gotham after being dead for a long time from the Nolandverse. The existance of superman forces his hand. When he returns, he finds Wayne manor destroyed aand John blake no where to be seen. It seems a new 'Batman'has been doing stuff in his absense. The Leauge of Shadows has been cloning Bruce Wayne.
This can have Batman vs Batwing and the introduction of Damien Wayne. Full-on Batman baatfleck movie with the same action effects used in BvS.
Fall 2016: Suicide Squad. Perfect movie. Leave the origins of this joker a mystery but follow the return of the joker story arcs where JaredLeto is John Blake, corrupted and driven mad by the Heath ledger joker.
Winter 2017: Superman - Take basically everything from BvS about government issues and Lex Luther and make a self contained movie with no batman. Luthor gets control of the alien ship (Which is basically braniac) and takes that wounded dude and does alll his gak to frame batman. Luthor stays 'legal' so braaindead sups can't put him in jail. First Villian is Metallo. Disabled dude survive the explosion and is rebuilt with a robot body by krypton tech and heart of kyrptonite. Battle ensues, Metallo at the bottom of the ocean or some crap. Movie ends with Lex being 'Meh, I have broken no law, you have no proof' and superman doing the 'i am waatching you.' thing.
Summer 2017: Stand Alone Wonder woman movie. Maybe even her 1918 retro movie which sets her up having a reason to 'watch' mankind until present.
Winter 2017: Batfleck 2: Real BvS. Jared Leto joker decides to enuse chaos by plotting bat vs superman using basically Lex's poorly thought out plan from this movie. Joker would kidnap a mom to force them to fight. He would punk Lex luthor to steal his kryptonite. Make it a Joker plot which is foiled in the end and Bat and Supes go their separate ways. Luthor is mad as gak.
Spring 2018: Make a nother isolated movie, Cyborg and the mothercube I guess. That is the most darkseid-related.
Fall 2018: Superman 2: Braniac. Luthor is mad, and attemps to ressurect Zod (not make a lame clone) with mind control stuff so it obeys him (opposed to murdering him immediatly). Bizzaro is born. Luthor uses Bizarro to stage crimes to frame superman. Fight ensues, Nuke scene happens, Bizarro turns ugly and broken. During this Luthor is freaking out and Braniac activated shortly when zod was revived as bizarro. Braniac begins doing his own crazy gak. Cyborg is introduced as his motherbox is the only thing combating braniac's world-wide control. Teamup, braniac defeated. Boomtube opens, Apokalips exposed.
Winter 2019: Suicide Squad 2: Luthor is defeated, lost his empire and hates superman. Amanda Wallace declares war on Superman on behalf of the US government. A crapton of villains attempt to assassinaate Superman and Hijinks ensue.
Summer 2019: Flash Movie: Flash is living a fun happy life as a hero in his city. Everyone loves him, He beats up on Bommerange aand cold and other fun stuff. But he time travels to the future for macguffen reason and sees 'justice lords' and apocalypse. Full on lobotomy Superman, Old man bruce wayne, Evil everyone. Flash helps batman bring sense to justice lord superman but it is too late. He watches everyone get killed by darksied and flaash goes back to regular time and hunts down batman.
Winter 2019: Justice League: Combine Supes, bat, Cyborg, Flash, Wonderwoman and BAM, you got a movie franchise with Darkseid and apokalypse being the major antagonist.
I dunno, I feel like your list would make some things worse.
1) BvS certainly may have been rushed, but making 9 movies before JL (or is it 13 including MoS and the Nolan films under your plan?) seems like at least twice as many as is needed.
2) This Batman doesn't need to be the Nolan Batman, and going down that path just limits these filmmakers creatively and probably leads to more confusion. I think that one of the successes of this film was its establishment of Batfleck, and note that we'll get more of his backstory filled in with Suicide Squad.
3) The John Blake/Robin/Joker fanboy stuff is terrible and incredibly convoluted. I don't see how introducing that would address the most common issues people have had with the DCEU so far.
IMO, the issues with BvS are almost entirely story related. It was always going to be somewhat of an issue given how much ground BvS had to cover, but I think some of them were also fixable and don't represent some fatal flaw in WB's approach to the whole shebang. We're going to learn more about Batman and the world of the villains in SS, and WW will have her own feature before JL. Let's see where the enterprise is at that point. I had my doubts about Marvel after stinkbombs like IM2, Thor, etc. and they managed to rally and string together some better films.
And I liked this film - warts and all - much more than IM2.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I just like how DC was obliged to do Batman's origin. Again.
I kinda wonder if anybody doesn't know the Batman origin at this point:
Spoiler:
His parents get shot
Can't we just take that as a given?
It seems that they take the running gag of Batman going "MY PARENTS ARE DEAAAAD" a little too seriously. I agree totally with that, its similar to Spiderman's origin with Uncle Ben and his adage of "With great power, comes great responsibility" and how badly they fluffed that up attempt at paraphrasing that line in the Amazing Spiderman. Some things are kind of established in their mythos, not sure why they want to beat viewers over the head with the same stuff over and over tbh.
2016/03/27 06:15:49
Subject: Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
JohnHwangDD wrote: There might be someone who's ignorant of Batman's origin. I can't imagine it, but I believe it's possible.
I think anyone who would see an advertisement for a movie featuring Batman and feels compelled to go see it probably has a pretty solid understanding on the basics of his backstory.
I mean, the character is nearing his 80th anniversary. He, along with Spider-Man and Superman, are as ingrained in popular culture as anything by this point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/27 10:02:05
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2016/03/27 09:53:04
Subject: Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
I've heard that they are going to release an R-rated (more violence, no nudity) version this summer, with an extra 30 or 37 minutes of footage. Link. Seems like we might get a much better version, if this includes more scene-linking and breaks up the massive fight sequence at the end a bit.
2016/03/27 12:28:00
Subject: Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
That's still not the character of Batman I grew up with. It annoys me when adaptations change the fundamental nature of characters for no particularly good reason.
I wasn't annoyed in MoS when Supes killed Zod because there's plenty of precedent for Supes killing really super powerful bad guys. I was annoyed at how they changed the character of Pa Kent into something really dumb.
Perhaps I'm weird but I think Super Heroes should act as examples for children. The moral core of Batman was that no matter how bad you were, he wouldn't kill you. It is what made him stand out. There are few enough rolemodels like that for children. It's aggravating to see one dismantled because a director wanted to be "edgy".
Frank Miller's Batman doesn't kill people in DKR either - I've got the foreword where he explicitly states that his introduction to Batman started with the declaration that he never kills baddies and that's what kept him fascinated by the character. (Though Frank Miller is a lunatic, but Snyder's use of his comics to justify it is crap.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/27 12:48:42
I'm a massive fan of Batman...but let's be honest, he does kill. Sure, it's usually done via inaction, rather than directly by his own hands, but it still happens.
That's pretty much what occurs in this movie and I actually liked that aspect. I feel that is suits an older, more worn down and less idealistic Batman.
2016/03/27 13:01:19
Subject: Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
In a character that is 80 years old, there will always be versions of the character that break all the rules.
That is inevitable.
However, I would say that "The batman does not kill" is one of the most consistent things about the character.
It's not a massive crime for Snyder to go against that - Burton did the same thing. But for me, that makes this movie version of batman a crappy version of batman and so I will not support the movie with my money, as it will only annoy me.
Da Boss wrote: That's still not the character of Batman I grew up with. It annoys me when adaptations change the fundamental nature of characters for no particularly good reason.
For what it's worth, there is a reason for it in the film. - I'm not going to go as far as to say it's a good reason. However, I can understand the filmmakers decisions behind it all and the character arc they've gone for Batman throughout the film.
Also, the good news is, they've kinda retcon'ed Pa Kent to have been a lot less of a jerk in this film.
Overall, I would say it's definitely still worth checking the film out, Da Boss (even if it is on this uncut DVD version), though I would recommend the cinema. There's enough sheer awesomeness that I think you can still enjoy the film if you were of a mind to.
2016/03/27 13:14:05
Subject: Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
Crappy version of Batman? No, not even vaguely. Affleck's portrayal of him was excellent. It was easily my favourite part of the film and I'd argue that he's the best movie version of Batman to date.
The movie does have issues, but their portrayal of Batman isn't one of them imo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/27 13:39:59
2016/03/27 14:21:02
Subject: Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
Enjoyed the movie...The plot at least. Didn't like the directorial choices. The shaky cam and out of focus effects bugged me. Made the action sequences a bit hard to follow.
Granted, part of this might be because of the seat I had...Second row and almost all the way to the side. But it's what was left pretty much.
I thought the movie made it pretty clear that Lex Luthor is Alexander Luthor's dad, thus the 'off' portrayal of him. It isn't actually the Lex that we know.
I don't really have a problem with Batman letting circumstances kill mooks. He doesn't try to kill them, but doesn't stop them from dying. A lot different from the Batman I grew up with (Granted, we're talking Adam West and Superfriends Batman ) but still a valid interpretation of the character.
2016/03/27 14:57:28
Subject: Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
Da Boss wrote: In a character that is 80 years old, there will always be versions of the character that break all the rules.
That is inevitable.
However, I would say that "The batman does not kill" is one of the most consistent things about the character.
It's not a massive crime for Snyder to go against that - Burton did the same thing. But for me, that makes this movie version of batman a crappy version of batman and so I will not support the movie with my money, as it will only annoy me.
Y'know, I always took it less as "Batman does not kill" but rather "Batman does not murder".
There's an important distinction between the two. One is cold and calculated(murder), but the other can be justified as being done in a "It's me or them" situation(killing in a fight storming a bad guy's hideout etc).
2016/03/27 15:02:21
Subject: Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
I don't, and I don't support any media where that is the interpretation.
Might seem like a silly stand, but at the end of the day I know it will stop me enjoying the movie, so going to see it will waste my money, and in any case I don't want it to be successful.
It's the same reason I dropped Doctor Who when River Song resulted in him becoming less of a Pacifist.
"That's how it starts. The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men... cruel."
Which makes sense for this Batman.
Spoiler:
Who in some ways is sort of having a crisis of confidence in what he is doing (the scene where he asks how many good guys are left in Gotham and how many stayed that way).
Brb learning to play.
2016/03/27 18:17:35
Subject: Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice discussion (SPOILERS!)
Yup, I get that. And I get that a character in publication continuously for 80 years in a serial medium is going to have all sorts of weird and wonderful arcs.
It's just not an arc I particularly enjoy. I guess we all form our views on whatever was the "definitive" batman. I got into Batman through the Knightfall comics mostly written by Chuck Dixon, and Dixon bat-family comics are still my all time favourite DC stuff. A supplement to that was the old animated series and the various animated things they've done since. I really enjoy those.
A hard bitten batman who betrays his core ethic is not a character I'm interested in. Glad you guys liked it though - I just won't be giving my money to Snyder and encouraging more of this.
-- $k 
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) but still a valid interpretation of the character.